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Primary and secondary

Started by Hypatia, July 13, 2007, 07:40:24 AM

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HelenW

"Primary" and "Secondary " as applied to transsexuals are artificial labels of limited use invented by a member of the medical community to categorize us in terms of how old we were when treating our dysphoria became imperative.  The problem with these labels is that their application to a person has nothing to do with anything other than their age.  They neglect all other aspects and influences that may have played a part in our coming to terms with ourselves.

Besides being artificial they impose a hierarchical view of GID which causes a good deal of harm, imo, because some people use them as justification to pronounce themselves "more trans" than others and to pronounce judgment based on that spurious interpretation.

Labels are useful in limited ways but I reject practically all of them except, "human."

hugs & smiles
Emelye
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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tinkerbell

Although I respect your opinion Emelye, I disagree.  There's a clear distinction  in the severity of GID among transsexuals.  This is the reason why I also disagree with the current DSM and HBSOC.  I think that the medical community has done "its best" to lump everyone in the same label, for it is obvious that some (by their own definition) do not fit there.

tink :icon_chick:
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Kate

Quote from: Keira on July 14, 2007, 01:00:14 PM
If we put GID discomfort on a spectrum, those with the highest level of discomfort will not be able to even try to adapt...

I don't agree. This is why these "spectrums" bother me so much.

It's become almost fashionable to worship self-destructive behaviour such as suicide "attempts" and self-mutilation as indicators of the "depth of GID," but I only see it as a measure of self-destructive behaviour. Why some people end up self-destructive and others don't, I don't know, but I don't believe it's a reliable measure of GID whatsoever.

It's like suggesting that drug addicts and alcoholics suffer moreso than others. But IMHO, they just *react* differently to misfortune in their life. But the curious thing is, I bet they too would tell you that they're pain and life is worse than everyone else, as being victimized seems to be an important aspect of their self-image.

I think this worship of an inability to adapt sets a dangerous precedent, and encourages people towards this sort of behaviour in an attempt to prove to themselves and those around them that they're "real" TSs, justifying what they need to do.

The assumption of this theory seems to be that "high levels of GID" will cause someone to BOTH know they're TS from birth AND not be able to cope at all. But... I've always clearly, unambiguously known I was (or should have been) a girl, and yet I managed to eek out a reasonably enjoyable life. The TSism was always there TOO, torturing me 24/7, but I did what I could to enjoy the life handed to me. There were no suicide "attempts," no self-mutilations.

So which is it?

If my GID was high, that would explain my knowing from birth... but why then wasn't I self-destructive?

If my GID was low, that would explain my coping as best I could... but why did I know from birth I was a girl then?

Isn't it much more likely that the complex dance of variables of both environment AND psyche determine both when we realize who we are, AND how well we cope?

~Kate~

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tinkerbell

Based on what you have said here many times Kate, I would say that you fit what the DSM used to call "primary transsexualism".  Also, most people are confused about what this really means.  You coud be 100 years old, living your life as your birth sex but totally miserable on the inside.  You'd still be primary.  The terms primary and secondary were based on the level of unhappiness with your birth sex.  People show this unhappiness in so many different ways.  Some do try to mutilate themselves, others try to kill themselves and others like you, it seems, suffer the same agony in silence without lifting a single finger until later when the pain becomes so unbearable that the only solution is to come out and be who you really are. 

Furthermore, the term secondary tended to apply to those people who had a rather paraphillic tendency towards the thought of "becoming" female.

tink :icon_chick:
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HelenW

Quote from: Tink on July 14, 2007, 03:11:36 PM
There's a clear distinction  in the severity of GID among transsexuals.

Is there really a distinction in the severity of GID or is it just that some of us have been able to develop more effective or longer lasting coping strategies and some haven't?

A large portion of the scientific community's living is produced by their efforts at classification.  And classification is useful in many ways but it is limited.  It's when people try to stretch those labels/classifications into areas which they were not really meant to be applied that trouble begins.

Quote from: Tink on July 14, 2007, 03:11:36 PM
I think that the medical community has done "its best" to lump everyone in the same label, for it is obvious that some (by their own definition) do not fit there.

That's why we go to individual or small group therapy to help with our gender issues.  Some labels by necessity are applied broadly but it seems that the more wide the application, the more inaccurate they become.

smiles & hugs
Em
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Emelye on July 14, 2007, 03:43:35 PM

Is there really a distinction in the severity of GID or is it just that some of us have been able to develop more effective or longer lasting coping strategies and some haven't?


Yes, there is a big difference between a three year old boy who says bluntly "I'm a girl" and a fifty year old who is still coping because he/she is not sure of their gender identity.

tink :icon_chick:
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Nero on July 14, 2007, 03:54:13 PM

As I previously stated, neither path is more valid than the other, neither person is 'more trans' than another. But, there is a distinct difference which I am no longer willing to pretend doesn't exist.



In other words, you do know in your heart that there is a difference but for X reasons, you don't want to admit it.  Perhaps thinking that this fact makes you "less" of anything.  It is commonly called denial;)  BTW Nero, the *you* is impersonal, so don't eat me alive... ;D :P

tink :icon_chick:
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tinkerbell

LOL  ;D actually I'm thinking here on my own.  Do you realize that transsexualism is the only medical condition that people argue to belong to?  I mean, you don't see people pulling their hair out and saying "I have a type 5 brain tumor"  "I am more cancerous than you"  On a bright note, this discussion is amusing somehow.  I think all of us are guilty that these terms are seen this way.  Some of us for believing in them, and some of us for letting it happen.

tink :icon_chick:
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Kate

Quote from: Nero on July 14, 2007, 03:54:13 PM
I'm sick of having my identity questioned by secondaries who had a perfectly normal, uneventful, non-GID disrupted childhood, and a peachy keen adult life up until one day when they finally tasted dyshoria, and couldn't take it.

That's a bit different than what I was referring to.

I realize there are some TSs who didn't have a single GID thought until later in life, who obviously had normal childhoods untroubled by GID.

But there are also people who have *always* struggled with GID, yet who were determined to carve out some sort of happiness from a miserable, seemingly unsolvable situation. I don't think it's fair to penalize the adaptability and creativity of these people as indicators of "less GID," while rewarding self-destructive behaviour as a measurement of "more severe pain." Some primaries managed to avoid becoming self-destructive, and some didn't... but I don't think the ability to cope is anything more than a product of environment, creativity and adaptability.

From the outside, adaptable primaries and secondaries LOOK the same, since both SEEMED to be getting by reasonably well duriing childhood. But in reality, one was in spiritual agony because of the GID, while the other hadn't faced it yet.

On the other hand, I feel really bad for "secondaries," as it often seems like rather than suffer slowly for decades, they save up all the pain and feel it all at once when they DO figure out who they are. Kinda like the difference of watching someone die from a long-term illness versus a sudden, tragic accident. Both are horribly painful, but it's still *different* somehow.

I'm not saying I put much faith in these definitions at all anyway, but hypothetically speaking, IMHO, and all that...

~Kate~
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Keira


Kate I think you've hit the nail on the nail (good aim?  :D )

Distress is not a sign of how much GID you've got, but it will lead to quicker treatment if you feel it. So, you could be in greater distress with less GID than someone else with a greater level of GID and better capacity to function in spite of it.

I've had to talk down several suicidal person's in my life, some more than once (I don't know why, it landed on me, that's some other question...) and the level of their suffering, was objectively a lot less than mine (less in length and in how it affected theird day to day lives); I had a the minute detail, I knew many them very very well.

Some people are distressed by very little, have constant anxiety about simply leaving the house, while others can go through war, get their arm cut off, see their mother get killed and still be the most adjuste people on the planet during and after (don't ask me how they do it, Its not possible for me to understand). Who suffered most, the person who can't deal with anything, or the war survivor. Its highly possibly its the person who can't deal with anything and that person will be the one going needing medication to move on in life.

We all deal with life's bumps in very different ways which are linked to our environment and how we have internalized it, and events along the road.

Sometimes, circumstances obliges you to be less distress. If there is no option at all, not a single minute one, you have two options, killing yourself or continuing on. For many people, even the most distressed, killing themselves is not an option (so what's left forging ahead!! Do they suffer less, or have less GID because they don't kill themselves or get themselves institutionalized). There is a certain instinct of preservation in most human being, even those under the greatest of stress.


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Thundra

transsexualism is a jarring condition that produces the same syptoms in the individuals involved as seen in any other traumatic or catastrophic event.

Some people have the coping skills to adapt to the situation, while others simply cannot.
This is obvious in the way a person's own GID manifests itself in their life. Is it when they are young, or after they are much older? When a person becomes aware of their GID, can they put off treatment, or do they have to do something right away?

If we are going to differentiate different levels of transsexualism to embellish those differences in coping skills, to deal with an impossible situation, than I think you need more than primary and secondary.

Childhood: the child never attempts to adapt to their assigned birth sex role, and in the correct family setting, transitions by early adulthood. These cases are rare indeed. They need gentle counseling and supportive parents.

Primary: recognizes their own GID, seeks out help, and is able to finish transition by the early thirties, once their program begins. Probably never ingratiates themself with their own sexual peers during that time. Sexual experimentation is brief or non-existant, even if they have a partner. These people require very little in the way of counseling except if they have fallen into prostitution as a means to finance their situation.

Adult: Becomes increasingly uncomfortable in their life role at work and in their private life. Either has begun to amass family and compensatory material possessions, or has become a hermit. In most trauma victims, people tend to either completely withdraw, or overindulge in an attempt to compensate for their loss. This USED to be the classic definition for a TS before the advent of the internet. These individuals manage to balance their work load and their transition schedule, and finish by their mid-forties. These people probably require the most counseling, because they reach a tipping point as to whether they really want to transition and give up their comfortable life, or whether they are uncomfortable enough to find their own life path in middle age.

Secondary: These individuals fall into a pattern of regret like most people their age. They have probably lived in the role of their assigned gender for so long that they have forgotten what it was like as a child. If they slowly cross over gender lines, they will spend considerable amounts of time seeking acceptance in the queer community before moving on to a new life.
Or, they will discover that they cannot and will not give up the material and familial comforts of life they have accumulated. Either way, these individuals have a large pool of regret they  have to deal with along with the normal transition requirements. These people require less counseling than the adult group because most people by this age view transitioning as a fantasy rather than as a reality. The exception being someone that falls into crisis due to other circumstances in their life ~ a catalyst that pushes them toward a transition outcome.

In other words, those with the best coping skills will last the longest as their assigned gender role, and those with the worst, will do the opposite. I am talking about survivability skills here.
I'm talking about the ability of a person to cope with living in the wrong role. If they cannot deal with the demands, they will transition or die.

I just don't think that  a before/after category thing works. What is the age grouping?  20?  30? 35?

If I had to do that, than my definitions would be:

a person that never accepts their assigned gender role at birth, never experiments with sex before transitioning, and never experiences what it feels like to be accepted as the assigned gender role at birth is a primary transsexual.  I have know a few.

Everyone else is a secondary transsexual.
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Kaitlyn

Wow.

I don't know what to say about this because I've seen several people in my own experiences, who would mostly fit in a vague region between 'Primary' and 'Secondary', but not really inside each category. I feel like we are falling into the same trap of assuming essentially a binary dichotomy, when there's a lot of variation in reality. Every person is a bit different.

Personally, while I had inklings in childhood, I felt the dysphoria really hit in high school, where in all the social drama and interactions put my feelings into perspective... so more and more I felt I was just playing the wrong part. Until eventually, I shut down. Really, it seems like most of the people I know (i.e. college-aged) felt it to varying degrees during mid to late childhood, though not really strongly enough to know what it represented (wanting to be a girl), figured it out during adolescence, discovered TSism in the mid/late-teens/early 20s, and are transitioning now during college/post-grad years. Where do we place? "1.5-ary transsexuals"? "Vague middle-grounders"?

Just taking transpeople and dividing them into two groups of primary and secondary seems incredibly arbitrary.

Edit: If any distinction exists, I think Thundra's post just before mine is probably nearest. Either you adapt/try for some (varying) period of time, or you don't at all. I don't know what real difference it makes, but most other suggestions are essentially just posturing ;p
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Kate

Quote from: Thundra on July 14, 2007, 05:15:17 PM
a person that never accepts their assigned gender role at birth...

I'm not sure I understand what that means? They don't accept their assigned gender ROLE or their assigned gender IDENTITY?

I never had any questions about needing to be a girl, but as a small child what was I supposed to do? I didn't care about clothes, I didn't equate genitals with my identity, I didn't equate girly activities with BEING a girl, and I knew that no matter how much I claimed to be a girl, no one would take me seriously and TREAT me as one. No, I was a born a boy, I was stuck, and I had to live out a life suffering that paradox without a solution.

Quotenever experiments with sex before transitioning...

I'm not sure I get this either... because primaries aren't attracted to women? Or because they don't want to use their assigned equipment for sex?

~Kate~
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Keira


By that definition, I'm very close to primary, 1 couple relationship and 3 intercourse in 39 years (in the year prior to transition, the bad experience in spite of loving the person there was the last straw!), no ability to truly live a male life all my life and been in depression at various levels since 14 (25 years of depression and moodiness, that's a LONG LONG TIME to be depressed).

But, still I think the term is kind of pulled out of thin air.

I think there's GID at various levels, variable coping skills and the environment (supportive, etc) which all interact to indicate when the person will transition and with what urgency they will want to do it.


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Shiranai Hito

It seems the more i read the more i get confused, help me to clarify some concepts please.

From Nero:

QuoteUpset by his or her sex, disturbed in his or her play and school activities

How much?
We could start from one extreme where someone totally hates being of a determined sex, to the other end where someone just believe he's not really masculine/feminine and that it would have been better for him/her to have been born of a different sex.

Also when you describe the secondary case, it seems that the person works perfectly or without any relevant disfunction until the age of 26. Is that really possible? I find it hard to believe that transexualism is something that can in its totally "pop up" only late in life. Maybe i misunderstood are you saying that the secondary before the end of their puberty never:
1) Wished to be of the opposite sex (without actually considering themselves of that sex)
2) thought they were somewhat feminine/masculine despite their natural assigned sex
3) had any case of gender dysphoria
4) manifested their will to change sex

from tink

QuoteFurthermore, the term secondary tended to apply to those people who had a rather paraphillic tendency towards the thought of "becoming" female.

This sound very close to the concept of ->-bleeped-<- except fot the "rather". What i've been asking to myself lately if a paraphilic tendency is enough to bring someone to GID, i'm still debating.

Anyway Tink from what you said so far it seems that you believe that basically the primary says "I am" (woman/man) while the secondary says "I wish to be" (woman/man). Is that correct?



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Robyn

Thank the goddess. it doesn't matter.  All that matters is who one is.  Primary, secondary, smorgasbord.  What is your identity, now, today, this minute, next week, next year? 

Whatever your age, what ever your sexual attraction, who are you? 

No one is any more or less a transsexual because of the age at which he or she realized something wasn't right in genderland or because he or she tried to live a life expected by others. 

I can trace my feelings to age 9, yet I didn't admit to being anything more than a lingerie collector until age 58.  At age 70, I'm 7 years postop.  All that is important is the fact that I am comfortable in my own body.  The old feelings of not being macho enough of not being a successful man are gone.  I am a successful woman, and my body matches my brain. 

Sorry, Ann; sorry, Ray; sorry Michael.  It really was about gender, not about sex.  And no, sorry guys, I am not lying to myself about it.

Primary?  Secondary?  HSTS?  AGTS?  Who cares?  Why argue over labels?  Take what you need and leave the rest.

Work with your therpist; work with your doctors; resolve non-GID issues; live healthy, and save your money as best you can.  Achieve what works for you.  Find happiness.  It's all around us.

Robyn

When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. — Patrick Overton
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Keira


If GID HIT in adulthood, then they had no need to adapt it earlier!!

I'm talking about many people who transitioned in their 30's who have been tortured from puberty onward, not someone where GID popped out of the toaster all done.

Nero, they do exist, in my support group, 3-4 are like that. Many actually have many psychological issues because they had to cope with this. One was in anger therapy for a year because of that (she had fit of uncontrolable rage at the whole world).

One way I coped was by dissassociating from myself. Basicly seeing my life from the outside, like a movie, not feeling ANYTHING, when I did feel something, it was a deep blues and I soon retreated into my dissociative state. Many trauma victim (and GID is one) have devellopped many coping skills.

Still, no matter how bleak my life was, and I can tell you it was plenty bleak, for whatever reason, I never was suicidal. Don't quite know the reason, there must have been a flicker of hope somewhere inside.


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tinkerbell

Quote from: Shiranai Hito on July 14, 2007, 05:40:45 PM

Anyway Tink from what you said so far it seems that you believe that basically the primary says "I am" (woman/man) while the secondary says "I wish to be" (woman/man). Is that correct?





Someone here said once:

"how you take comments/opinions is what you TRULY believe in your heart". So I will leave you to answer your own question. ;)

Now, not to change the topic of the thread or anything, but I also find it incredibly fascinating when people talk about their enormous emotional strength and say things like "I am TS but don't plan to ever transition" "I am strong"  really? ha! well, if people are soooooo strong emotionally, they could deal with everything, couldn't they? including transition.

tink :icon_chick:
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Kaitlyn

Quote from: Nero on July 14, 2007, 05:42:07 PM
Posturing my arse! For the zillionth time, this is not about adaptibility. Have we become so PC we won't even admit there are different manifestations and levels of GID? For the millionth time, where the hell is a secondary's phenomenal adaptibility now that they need to transition?

My point is that we're putting down an awful lot of arbitrary lines. What is a secondary? Someone who feels it at age 8 or later? 10 or later? 15 or later? 20 or later? There's a thousand ways to define it, and it's too complicated for that. Can you really make broad sweeping generalizations like that?
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asiangurliee

I don't fall into the primary or the secondary classification either.


I had a normal childhood, puberty didn't bother me a lot. In fact, I wanted to be taller and I liked the facial hair because I can than finally feel fit in with the boys and they wouldn't hit on me anymore.

The boys called me a girl and they bullied me, but I didn't think I was. I thought i was just being myself, a normal polite boy who was very different from other boys.

Oh , and i would wrap my head with a towl, pretending that I have long hair. But that didn't mean I thought I was a girl.  I've always admired females and I would want to be like them, but I never thought that I was a girl trapped in a boy's body.


Am I a dragqueen? No, I don't care about wearing female clothes. I don't really care about make up either.

I never felt fit in and I was always depressed because I don't have any male friends. I've always liked guys, and I admired girls, but I never thought I could be a girl and I never felt that I was a girl.

I was okay with being a boy, but social interaction made me hate my gender very much because I don't like the male social role and I've always wanted to be the "female" in the "same sex body" relationship. (I've always liked guys)

Does that mean I am a homosexual transsexuals? I don't know. I don't think so.

I just start hating being a guy more and more, but that was only after I turned 19.

I remembered wishing I had a vagina at 13, but that was it, I didn't feel discomfort with my body, but I did wish I had a vagina because I couldn't use my part and I don't want to use my part in any sexual activity.

So am i primary or secondary or a wannabe transsexual? Meh.
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