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Primary and secondary

Started by Hypatia, July 13, 2007, 07:40:24 AM

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Hypatia

What's with the classification of transsexuals into "primary" and "secondary"? I've seen these terms in medical and psych journals. What are the implications for our lives?
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Melissa

These are terms Ray Blanchard came up with and if you read any of his work, you will see that he basically says primary TS are really just gay men who only are transitioning so it will be more acceptable to be with a man and that secondary transsexuals are just men who want to live as women because the thought of being a woman is a sexual turn on ( ->-bleeped-<- is the term he came up with).

I obviously do not agree with him because I find his theories diminutive and insulting, so I refuse to use these terms.  I think his very biased ideas are just an attempt to deny transitioning disprove that transsexualism really exists.  Just ignore anything you see about the primary/secondary model, because it really is irrelevant.
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Lori

Personally, from my viewpoint none. There is not enough education out there to know the difference first of all, and second most people think I am gay or like to crossdress in womens clothes. Society has a hard time seperating Crossdresser from ->-bleeped-<-s/->-bleeped-<-s, to transsexuals whatever class or type they may be.


Second, the moron that wrote the book about  ->-bleeped-<- wouldn't know GID if it bit him in the butt. Stop reading crap and accept things the way they are. You will be much happier getting rid of that load.
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Kate

Quote from: Hypatia on July 13, 2007, 07:40:24 AM
What's with the classification of transsexuals into "primary" and "secondary"? I've seen these terms in medical and psych journals. What are the implications for our lives?

Only what you allow them to be.

~Kate~
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Steph

Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 11:04:16 AM
>...
Second, the moron that wrote the book about  ->-bleeped-<- wouldn't know GID if it bit him in the butt. Stop reading crap and accept things the way they are. You will be much happier getting rid of that load.

Indeed.  His theories have been rejected by most medical professionals with the exception of one ally named Dr Anne Lawrence, who even though being a post op MtF TS herself supports his theories.

Sort of a stab in the back towards all TS.

You may want to have a read here and look at the section on the DSM-IV and ICD-10

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Standards_of_Care_for_Gender_Identity_Disorders#The_DSM-IV

Steph

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Melissa

Quote from: Steph on July 13, 2007, 12:25:52 PM
His theories have been rejected by most medical professionals with the exception of one ally named Dr Anne Lawrence, who even though being a post op MtF TS herself supports his theories.
Yeah, I met her a couple of months ago. :-X
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rhonda13000

Quote from: Lori on July 13, 2007, 11:04:16 AM
Personally, from my viewpoint none. There is not enough education out there to know the difference first of all, and second most people think I am gay or like to crossdress in womens clothes. Society has a hard time seperating Crossdresser from ->-bleeped-<-s/->-bleeped-<-s, to transsexuals whatever class or type they may be.


Second, the moron that wrote the book about  ->-bleeped-<- wouldn't know GID if it bit him in the butt. Stop reading crap and accept things the way they are. You will be much happier getting rid of that load.

[Laughing and shaking her head]

Girl, you just crack me up.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Kat

Until today I had no idea who Blanchard was, now I understand why people think he is crazy  :-\
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tinkerbell

Well, I really don't know, so let's leave everything to the experts!  ;D ;) >:D

Transsexuals and Transvestities

Transvestism and Gender Dysphoria

tink :icon_chick:




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Shiranai Hito

I am now quite confused about the word " ->-bleeped-<-". I've been thinking about it for the last weeks.

Ray Blanchard was the first who came out with this theory, but more recently this kind of idea was promothed by Michael Bailey and his book "the man who would be queen".

Michael Bailey was hardly criticized and accused by many transgender/transexual communities but his book was nonetheless a best seller and widely appreciated by the masses. What's worse is he apparently was convincing enough to bring to his side some transexuals.

I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post a link, suffice to say i came across a site that totally shocked me. This page apparently adopts Michael Bailey's point of view about transexualism (it even suggests to read his book), and it states that there is an undeniable difference about the two different transexual conditions. They all refer at themselves as HSTS (homosexual transexuals), they refuse the idea of a transexual community, their goal is to counter what they believe is a threaten to their identy caused by so called ->-bleeped-<- ( ->-bleeped-<-) driven coomunities.

As michael bailey did, they seem to only consider the approach of different transexuals.

Basically:

->-bleeped-<-: A condition that brings a heterosexual man to be sexually attracted to the idea of being of the opposite sex, or having the body appearance of woman.

HSTS: A homosexual man that desires to be woman in order to better fit with his sexual orientation.


At first these statements do not seem to have anything derogatory about these different transexual contditions. However they can easily bring to a strongly derogatory consequence.

->-bleeped-<- is the most obvious of the two. While homosexuality is now somewhat accepted and not considered a disease (at least from APA and their DSM, NARTH however would disagree), any other sexual investment towards something that isn't an adult human being is considered a paraphilia. If a man rather have sex with his own female self than with another person, people will see him as a pervert on par with necrophiliacs, podophiliacs, and so on.

However this could be also threatening for HSTS. If we accept the idea that those transexuals are merely "gay men" that do not really desire to be women but rather more accepted by society and their partners... well i can foresee what some right-minded would say:

"HSTS are gay men that aren't satisfied by having sex with other gay men, they sought for the ultimate way of deceivement in order to lure to themselves straight men that would otherwise have a happy life with real women and their own biological sons".

I wonder how could they not see how dramatically threatening this idea can be.

After several thinkings i realized that there is absolutely no way to defend transexualism if you look merely at those motivations. But there's something amiss here, something that is really important, something that really matters, and it can be found in either conditions.

It's the pain that comes from the idea of being of the wrong sex, the pain that comes from the idea of being trapped in the wrong body, the inability to express the true self, the inability to look at the own body without grossing out or crying, the unability to be happy and selfconfident.
There's been a long way to make the world to look at transexualism not as a perversion but as a treatment to a potentially lethal disease.

Frankly speaking, if you feel no pain, you need no treatment. If you don't suffer from your condition then probably you shouldn't change sex at all.

Seeing as how "pain" is a major key to understand transexualism, how could that have been overlooked? I frankly don't get it. I can somewhat understand how Michael Bailey (being a normal man, or so he says) might have not considered it, but how could someone that consider himself/herself a transexual?

I am not denying there are differences as i would not deny that there are heterosexuals and homesexuals, but i believe that the true will to live as the opposed sex is only slightly connected to a supposed ->-bleeped-<- condition or HSTS condition. Gender disphoria is the main cause of transexualism, the rest is secondary.





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tinkerbell

Please take a second to read the recent studies.

tink :icon_chick:
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Keira


I wouldn't call that a study Tink, its a hodge podge of many things,
without much precision if they all should be taken as facts.
Some things are from the 60's others the 90's, terminology fluctuates,
stereotypes appear and fade in the text.
I don't really like it.
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tinkerbell

l'm afraid that not much can be said on something which has not been studied thoroughly.  This, among other things, is the best of what you can come up with.  That was the reason I posted it.  I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is and what isn't.  My personal view is that there are differences in the intensity of how gender dysphoria manifests.  It's evident, IMO, that what is unbearable for some is tolerated by others and so on.  I do believe that there is a significant difference between "primary and secondary" transsexualism; however, I'm not sure about defining these differences with such terms.

tink :icon_chick:
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Nero on July 14, 2007, 12:30:53 PM
Disclaimer - this is Nero's view on Primary and Secondary Transsexualism

I do believe in Primary and Secondary transsexualism. I don't believe  ->-bleeped-<- or transvestism comes into play at all, and both paths are valid.

Primary:

* Recognizes their true gender no later than first grade (age 7 or so). I say this because if they were not aware of something wrong and had no knowledge of their gender before, a classroom situation would surely bring it out. (independent of one's upbringing/doesn't matter whether raised in 'gender neutral' environment or not)

* Upset by his or her sex, disturbed in his or her play and school activities

* As an older child - failure in his or her relations with peers, isolation, confusion, refusal to go to school

* Psychological pain upon onset of puberty

* Sexual attraction to members of the opposite gender (same sex body) at puberty

* Taking hormones and/or dressing in and attempting to assume the role of the target gender (passing is not a factor) no later than age 25



Secondary:

* No knowledge of true gender in childhood, may not even recognize anything wrong

* No noticable discomfort in their birth sex during play, activities, etc.

* As an older child - normal school life and performance

* Puberty is no big deal

* No sexual attraction to members of the opposite gender (same sex body) at puberty

* No attempt to appear as or assume the role of the target sex at or before age 26



It would be ludicrous to pretend these dinstinctions don't exist, and that all TS experience GID in the same way. It's obvious there are different paths.
I didn't come up with these off the top of my head. It's an assimilation of various documents on primary vs secondary.
I don't feel the last two criteria to be nearly as important as the top four. Many people delay transition for a myriad of reasons - that is not the biggest distinction between Primary and Secondary as most claim. Therefore, a homosexual TS transitioning at age 40 is primary provided they have the top four criteria.
If you had no knowledge of your true gender and your GID was not significant enough to disrupt your childhood, you are not primary.

The biggest distinction between Primary and Secondary is how early the GID was manifest.
This is regardless of what decade you grew up in, how 'cool' your folks were, whether or not you were raised in a so-called 'gender neutral' environment, how much personal strength you had, how athletic you were, gender of siblings, personal fortitude, ability to adapt, personality, sexual orientation, I could go on and on...

Example for clarity:

An adult TS starts to experience extreme GID, cannot function properly in any area of their life, and needs to transition. THIS is what a primary transsexual child feels growing up.
See the difference?

Bottom line - If you had no real problems being your birth sex during childhood, but all of sudden into adulthood, find you cannot just 'adapt' to being the wrong sex now, you are a Secondary Transsexual.

Boy, I do feel a debate coming on. >:D

 


I agree 101%, Nero.  BTW This wonderful site is fond of debates; differences of opinion are quite welcome here; however, nothing is absolute IMO.

tink :icon_chick:
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Buffy

Primary? Secondary? - what wonderful terms and classifications

Whatever happened to just plain confused and depressed.

Buffy
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Buffy on July 14, 2007, 12:38:55 PM
Whatever happened to just plain confused and depressed.

Buffy

That is just that Becky, plainly confused or depressed.  Nothing else.  BTW I am sure that I'm a primary transsexual.  I say this as what I feel myself to be and based on what I have experienced since childhood.  Obviously you are quite welcome to agree or disagree with my POV.  >:D

Okay, I'm out of here... ;D ;)

tink :icon_chick:
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Keira

Nero, I don't really fit in either of your definition, so what I am?
You can be slight girly in childhood, without ever thinking of gender or feeling apart from the other girls (tomboys exist you know); that was me, I was singled out for bullying though, I never understood why until now.

Early puberty, didn't fit in the world of men, slowly drifted away from my female friends, had no real consciousness of gender or sexuality, just felt intensily alone and retreated in being a top student in school/athlete in the country, basicaly being a workoholic to escape looking at my self.

I had basicaly no introspection beyond 14 (when I wrote many poems I look at now with amazement). I was all about doing stuff that required little socialisation. Without socialisation, there is no gender.

I felt different from everyone, and I for me, I meant I was superior to everyone. A coping mechanism.

Anyway, that was me before age 18.

I think the distinction between primary and secondary is bogus.

If we put GID discomfort on a spectrum, those with the highest level of discomfort will not be able to even try to adapt (that's even more the case when adaption seems to be the only option available) or suppress it and will seek help as early as possible.

I never heard of transexuals before the age of 23 (1990), even if I had started to take birth control pills of my sister at 21!! Its only when I had a serie of big panic attacks at that age that led me to a hospital, that I was refered to a gender clinic.

At that time, the support groups mixed obvious CD's with TS's!!!. Even dealing with gender problems was in its infancy in Montreal, they are not well organized and supportive like now. The clinics were more like the Toronto clinic, very judgemental old men with antiquated ideas "evaluated" me (I felt really uncomfortable about that).

The whole messed up gender clinics and my own fear of being seen as a freak made me believe this whole process would lead me to suicide. I didn't feel strong enough to transition. So, in 1996, stopped self-medicating with very low doses of hormomes, and went into zombieland with no emotion and tried living as something (not a man, that's for sure) for 11 more years!!!

In the 90's information (especially late 90's) started to trickle and then pour in and that gave hope to many. The possibility of FFS also gave hope to many others that thought they would never pass (it gave hope to me, although by all standards I didn't need it to pass (to be beautiful, yes I needed it)!!).

I believe that with time, people with a slightly lower level of GID who in the past would have tried to bear it and would have contacted the gender clinics in their 30's and 40's, will transition in their 20's or teens.

If I had proper support, I would have transitioned in my very early 20's, that's a certainty. Society was what it was and I was what I was, I can't go back now!

Those that transition now in their 50's to 70's come from an area of such repression and desinformation that no correct assessment can be done without touching on the cultural environment in which they were brought up.

Why are there more children with GID now, something in the water, or parents more in tune with this. If my parent's had seen me with all my female friends in childhood, seen how I acted (which was different from all the other boys I knew) and had a the resource that exist now, who knows what would have happened?

I was have been an athletic tomboy into my teens, everything I did now look like that in retrospect.
I never felt the cast of gender falling upon me, until it impacted my social interactions, from
then on I dreamed of being with the girls, of being able to follow them, without any notion that
it was in any way possible (I thought it wasn't). If I had more of a notion of the existence of
TS and treatment, I KNOW I would have started self-medicating in my teens (like I did at 21).




  •  

Kate

Are there any *practical* differences in making this distinction between primary and secondary?

Are they treated differently?

Is one considered GID, and the other something else?

Or...?

~Kate~
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Kate on July 14, 2007, 01:04:42 PM
Are there any *practical* differences in making this distinction between primary and secondary?

Are they treated differently?

Is one considered GID, and the other something else?

Or...?

~Kate~

Not anymore, but there was a time when the medical community approached each of these terms differently.

tink :icon_chick:
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Nero on July 14, 2007, 02:49:25 PM
Quote from: Keira on July 14, 2007, 01:00:14 PM
If we put GID discomfort on a spectrum, those with the highest level of discomfort will not be able to even try to adapt (that's even more the case when adaption seems to be the only option available) or suppress it and will seek help as early as possible.
That's me. I could never even function in the female role at all. Everyone around me (especially other females) noticed it, and I was sent to more psychiatrists than I can count. I was too ashamed  and confused to admit what was wrong. I was even institutionalized for months at age 14 (my parents attempt to find the problem).
I knew nothing of ftms, or treatment options, I just tried to assume a male role without passing. I eventually felt so trapped and hopeless, I shot up every few hours to try to deal with being seen as female.
I could not live as female, I didn't know how, trying to observe and behave like other females was not working.

Call it Primary or Secondary, or some other terms altoghether - there is a very significant difference as to the onset and severity of GID.

I used to be all PC and pretend there were no Primary vs Secondary distinctions, but now I've had my belly full of clear secondaries questioning my manhood over silly things like having some feminine traits, sleeping with men, liking my genitalia, etc.

Whenever the subject of childhood GID comes up, I hear the same BS from secondaries - 'Some people are stronger than others, I had a good personality, my folks didn't push me one way or the other, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, etc, etc, etc,..'

Ok. Then why can't you now just rely on your herculean strength, your stellar personality, etc? Why is your GID now into adulthood, so severe you can longer just 'adapt'?

Why? I'll tell you why. You are only now into adulthood getting a taste of what primary transsexuals go through from birth.
I'm less than trans than you? If you're secondary, you'd best check yourself and not go there, because you don't even know.

I know clear and obvious secondaries in their 20s. I've read passages here from people who are transitioning 40+ who are clear primaries. Primary and Secondary has nothing to do with age of physical transition, but age of onset.
Being selfless, sacrificing your happiness for your family, and holding out as long as you can for their sake (which is a very feminine trait I might add) does not equate to Secondary.

There are TS who fall inbetween categories and that's fine.

Inspired rant over. :icon_raving: Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building.





You do realize that that I could kiss you now, don't you?  ;D ;)

Quote from: NeroWhy? I'll tell you why. You are only now into adulthood getting a taste of what primary transsexuals go through from birth.
I'm less than trans than you? If you're secondary, you'd best check yourself and not go there, because you don't even know.


Amen!

tink :icon_chick:
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