Primary and secondary

[tinkerbell]

Tink, thanks for the response. A few questions... given that you meet a 'secondary' transitioner who does, in fact,  give a flying monkey about their presentation, I'd be interested if you compared that person with yourself as a primary.

Regina, just to keep things into perspective here, I am talking about the people I have met personally.  Especifically there were three people who, in fact, didn't give a flying monkey about how they presented themselves in society but did not waste any time crying and whining about how unfairly society treated them.  Anyway, let's see......differences I have noticed among those people and I:

*  Despite the fact they transitoned many years ago, they still showed strong masculine patterns in their behavior, voice, and overall appearance.  One of them was, in fact, post-operative, but behavior wise, she couldn't get rid of her masculine mannerisms.  I don't know if this had to do with the fact that she had served in the US Naval Forces or what but anyway those were the main differences.

*  Lack of style in general.  They would wear attire which wasn't age appropriate,  too over the top for their age.

*  As far as makeup, well, I don't know.  I mean, you would figure that someone who transitioned five years ago would  know at least the basics of makeup application, but it wasn't so.  I honestly thought they looked better without makeup.

*  Speech patterns, the vocabulary in general hadn't been softened despite all those years in transition.  In other words, they were clockable, readable on the spot.

You're right, Tink, I'm NOT terribly interested in more links.

I understand.  However, as I said, this thread is for everyone in general (not just the ones who are participating in this discussion), and some people may find these links to be beneficial, so I will keep on posting them when I can.

That's a little vague and pie-in-the-sky-ish hun, but I do get we're talking about an intangible quality. I ask because I've met some very early transitioners who, 25 years on, had a rather bitter, defensive vibe about the world, but I definitely understand that there's a difference between someone who's lived as a woman (much less a trans one) for 25 years and someone who's lived as a woman fulltime for 3 years and what they've experienced.

Well, you asked for my opinion, and you got it.  You are free to agree or disagree with it but I stand by what I said.




tink



P.S.  You are quite welcome by the way.

[ChildOfTheLight]

I'm going to pose a question.  I don't expect a solid answer, because the science, as far as I know, isn't there yet.  Maybe some of you will have interesting speculations, though.

It's widely thought, although not strongly supported yet (the BSTc studies had a very small sample size, and I believe another study indicated that taking hormones changes the structure of that area) that transsexuality will eventually be traced to clear differences in brain structure (i.e., that MtFs have in some way a typically female brain structure, and that FtMs have in some way a typically male brain structure.)  Is there anyone here who believes that this is the case, and also believes that there's some kind of distinction between "primary" and "secondary" (or whatever terms you use) transsexuals?  If so -- do you think there is a difference, on the neurological level, between them?  What could it be, if, as Nero has contended, they end up in the same place, just with a later onset for "secondary" transsexuals?

I'd especially be interested to know what you think about this, Nero -- assuming, of course, that you agree with the premises.

For the record, I'm not convinced that there is such a distinction between "primaries" and "secondaries," but that's not what I'm getting at here.  I'm investigating the implications of that distinction.

[tinkerbell]

Nero has contended, they end up in the same place, just with a later onset for "secondary" transsexuals?

Is this actually true? Honestly I am not sure if we end up in the same place.  We may go through the same process of gender reassignment (i.e, therapy, hormones, RLE, and SRS) but does this mean that we are in the same place "psychologically" when we complete SRS?  I am not sure.  Some articles in the links I have provided state that there are greater rates of regret and less social ajustment among secondary transsexuals.  This will indicate that we don't end up in the same place even after complete gender reassignment has been performed.  My two cents.


tink

[ChildOfTheLight]

Nero has contended, they end up in the same place, just with a later onset for "secondary" transsexuals?

Is this actually true? Honestly I am not sure if we end up in the same place.  We may go through the same process of gender reassignment (i.e, therapy, hormones, RLE, and SRS) but does this mean that we are in the same place "emotionally" when we complete SRS?  I am not sure.  Some articles in the links I have provided state that there are greater rates of regret and less social ajustment among secondary transsexuals.  This will indicate that we don't end up in the same place even after complete gender reassignment has been performed.  My two cents.


tink

I don't know which links you mean, so you probably posted them elsewhere (or I missed them in this thread -- I read through it somewhat hastily.)  Would you repost them here or send me a PM?

[Maud]

They viewed themselves as 'primary' and totally female. But when I heard what they were into, I couldn't connect with it... they liked sci fi (I hate it), fantasy games (loathe them), Battlestar Galactica (never cared to see it), cars (??), into goth metal, computers and programming, samurai sword stuff (!)... you get the picture. And with that was endless discussion of theories.

At first I just thought it was a generational thing, but at that same time, I was in a program to get my teaching credential. In my cohort group of 40 were 2 males (I would be classified as one of those two) and 38 women... many of them younger (22-34). I became buds with a lot of those women, at least while we were in the program and, time and time again I noticed, they WEREN'T into the stuff these young transwomen were into. They read women's fiction, liked very different music, were into certain tv shows (Sex and the City). We liked a lot of the same movies. I went to dance performances with a couple of them. I felt at home. And they discussed experiences, not theories.

See I used to talk about experiences on trans forums but they people got jealous and I got aggro for rubbing their face in it.

The thing is that if you're dealing with being TS every waking day basically from birth and you can't blend in as your birth sex then you can't just sit around twiddling your thumbs you find something to escape into and that's all too often sci-fi/games/geeky crap. I remember as a kid calling up my friends just to chat for a few hours and having them not want to play along, I remember being rejected because I didn't want to play violent games in the playground and I remember most of all even having the girls bully me into a social reclusive state and in that situation there's only one way to go these days and that's with the geeks which make up a significant proportion of schools these days what with being the internet age and all.

I never was that interested in geeky stuff it's just what I fell into after my school life imploded, I got good at computers because there was simply nothing else to do apart from read, which I did allot of.

These days the geeky knowledge is still floating around my head and yeah if my favourite episode of DS9 comes up I'll watch it, hell so will my own sister, however I like many many many other "primary" transsexuals are able to move on from it while not actively purging it from our lifes, to do that would be self destructive and unhealthy.


(disclaimer: I'm not even that big of a geek, I talk more in a general sense than in self defence)

[seldom]

Regina,
I picked up on the interest thing as well.  I don't get it personally. 

I have a geeky side (my GG roommate does to) but many of them its overwhelming.  I don't really talk about my geeky side either.  It kind of freaks me out at times how strongly acculturated they are, its like they never had female friends.  Its almost the geeky male acculturation is pretty overwhelming.  I am not going to deny them their gender identity, but yikes. 

Interest wise.  My biggest interests are beauty music, twee pop, and DIY craft fairs.  I also have a high appreciation for literature, social history (I was basically a womens history major in college), fine arts, and cinema (foreign, classic, arts and indie).  I feel like I am speaking a foreign language sometimes with these girls.  I usually have an easier time talking to non-transwomen. 

The difference is as it was pointed out to me, is that I have been social in a subcultural setting since I was in high school, where  somehow being a gender variant became an asset and I was able to tap into the artistic crowd.  Basically,  I avoided social isolation and male acculturation.  Instead I was acculturated with queers, artists and bohemians...which well...offer more options.  Basically...I was lucky, which explains why I sometimes have a huge disconnect with most transgirls, both older and younger.  I could not begin to transition until recently because of my career and family, but I was able to at least  never fell into male culture as hard.  (I never fit into being male, but found a place where gender variance was accepted culturally.)  I have acculturation advantages...people never took me fully as male to begin with, but I had the advantage of a subcultural identity...as a musician, especially a songwriter...I was allowed flexibility to be myself a bit more and did not have the pressures of social conformity. 

My interests in fine arts and twee music and crafts, etc. kind of reflect this subculutral acculturation where it was perfectly okay to be femme, cute, or girly.  There is a difference of acculturation and changing how you are acculturated is the hardest part to transitioning, even for younger transkids. Many avoid subcultural leanings, I have only met one who was similar to me.   Because acculturation is a hard thing to drop, you get rather attached to your interests.   My interests by in large lean femme, save for a few exceptions I rather not admit. 

(Okay I admit I like battlestar galactica, but most other sci-fi bores me to death.) 

[Maud]

So what you're saying is that ->-bleeped-<-s lie to validate themselves?


No ->-bleeped-<- sherlock.

[Shana A]

A TS who assimilates and is accepted as a normal member of their birth sex until they wake up one day in their 20s, can't take it, and become suicidal over dysphoria is NOT Primary. This is not an early vs late transitioner issue.

One symptom of post traumatic stress would be to repress feelings. I had a conversation with my therapist about this some years ago, she said that as trans people, many of us had experienced PTSD. It is indeed possible for someone to deeply repress their trans feelings for YEARS, and then wake up one day to suddenly realize who they are.

zythyra

[tinkerbell]

They try to compete with other TS to win the 'most masculine/feminine before HRT' cup.

Examples of this phenomenon:

* pre-HRT overweight mtf insisting she has suddenly developed gynecomastia

* ftm with 5 hairs on his chin citing this as proof he's intersexed

* mtf with sparse body hair citing this as proof of her femininity

* mtfs with large, broad upper bodies claiming to have a female build

* 5' 70lb ftm citing his tiny curveless frame as undeniable proof he's male

* mtfs with hands 5x the size of mine insisting they have 'girl hands'

* ftm who made an unattractive girl citing this as proof of his identity

* mtfs debating over who has the most prominent brow ridge

* tiny ftm develops slight arm muscles after a year of weight lifting and cites this as evidence of his 'non diagnosed' intersex condition

*  ftm claiming the sparse few hairs on his stomach is a happy trail when it's actually very common for females his ethnicity

* mtf insisting her organ is in reality something other than a penis

ROFL!!!    OMG it is 6:11 a.m. here in Utopia.  I have to change my blouse.  I spilled my coffee all over it while reading this part of your post, Nero.  What a hoot!  I shouldn't be here in the mornings before my caffeine shot...LOL 

I have to go to work.  Thank you for the laugh....*giggling*  I will never get over this, to tell you the truth.  It is going to be a good day indeed.  A day that starts with a laugh and a cup of coffee on your new blouse can't be bad, can it?

*  ftm with 5 hairs on his chin citing this as proof he's intersexed
* mtf insisting her organ is in reality something other than a penis

I am literally choking on my coffee    ....what a hoot!  Enjoy your day everyone....

tink

[Maud]

So what you're saying is that ->-bleeped-<-s lie to validate themselves?

Not all. Certain ->-bleeped-<-s. With me, what you see is what you get. I know what I am, I know what I'm not. I can't understand people who can't just say 'this is me, you either like it or you don't.'

Certain in my experience equals most.

[Shiranai Hito]

Uhmm i've been saying so far that we shouldn't look at the matter in terms of better/worse, just objectively find out the differences. However it seems clear to me that after all Nero believes that in the secondary cases there are some inherent qualities that are somewhat lame and laughable.

[Keira]

OK, I'm back from the undead, 2-3 years passed rapidly 

Nero, what happens when you NEVER adapt to your birth DNA bound sex? But somehow just trudge along into oblivion (my famous Zombie mode).

- I never had a girlfriend or any sexuality of any kind until the year before transition (lone girlfriend). Fantasised of being the women in a relationship always from puberty on, even with my lone girlfriend... (that was the last straw!!)
- Had 1 real male friend and 4 female friends in 40 years.
- Was in various stage of anxiety followed by despondency and depression since puberty, on and off meds ever since, severely messing my career and school life despite having supposedly a 150 IQ (I don't feel like it many times, believe me).
- Made much money, but with no dreams of a building any future, never bought any investment with it, just freely spent it on crap I thought I needed to be happy. So, in spite of the high salaries, I've got no assets and much debts at 40.
- I was diagnosed as having NO DEFINED PERSONALITY by psychologists in the gender program when I was 25; said they very rarely saw that and wanted to study me... I was so offended, that I dropped out of the gender program in my 20's and went further into zombieland.
- I was so uncomfortable with my image that I never looked into mirrors from puberty onward, barely washed myself or my hair, my shoes fell appart, my clothes were too big and rumpled most of the time.
- Tweezed my hair out from 20-24, then started electrolysis even though it took all my money to do so.


As you see, I wouldn't call that well adapted EVER, yet for some period of it, I lived in such a way that from the exterior, seemed to be adapted to my birth sex (when I was living the high life in California and was dying inside...).

[Hypatia]

The thing is that if you're dealing with being TS every waking day basically from birth and you can't blend in as your birth sex then you can't just sit around twiddling your thumbs you find something to escape into and that's all too often sci-fi/games/geeky crap. I remember as a kid calling up my friends just to chat for a few hours and having them not want to play along, I remember being rejected because I didn't want to play violent games in the playground

You could be describing my childhood exactly: I went through the same social isolation because I hated violent boy-games, and adults forced me out of female society, so I became isolated. This was in the 1960s, before computer games, so I became a science geek. I went to the library as often as possible and read books in preference to doing anything else. I also stole all my sister's books about girls, establishing a lifelong habit of reading women's literature. I even unofficially attended my sister's Girl Scout meetings when they were held in our house, having read the manual.

When science geekery lost its appeal, I went for classical music and achieved a high level of proficiency in piano, won awards, taught myself several other instruments, and wanted to major in music--but my parents discouraged me -- while my sister went on to a very successful career in classical music, because for a girl that was considered acceptable. Bitter now? Nah.

Gina, I can relate well to your experience. I became a dance enthusiast on my own, in college, never having gotten any encouragement for it when I was living at home (though my sisters did). I went and took ballet and other dance classes, and in fact it was restarting dance lessons 3 years ago that helped precipitate my coming out. I always enjoyed yoga classes and dance classes because they were predominantly or entirely women and that's where I felt comfortable, they spoke the language I understood. I became a feminist even though people sometimes accused me I went for feminism only as a pretext to hang out with women. Feminism was a great way to immerse myself in an all-female milieu. I also cared about the issues, it wasn't a pretext, women's points of view always intuitively made sense to me just as male stuff didn't. For my career, I chose library science which was great because I mostly worked with women.

Heh, Gina, you reminded me of a certain other TG online community where the MTFs all talked about their motorcycles, I felt left out. I dislike motorcycles but they were wild about them, the technical specs, gadgetry, etc. They accused me of not being a real TS because I only talked about girly stuff. It was like frickin gender dysphoria all over again. Talk about aggro. You said it, babe.

I'm also a late transitioner, which is why I suspect the primary/secondary dichotomy of being irrelevant. How did I hide from my gender dysphoria all those years with crossdressing only very infrequently? I avoided other people and spent long hours in libraries immersed in intellectual stuff. I was so isolated I generally had few or no friends. When I did go for social activities, I chose only female ones where possible (which weren't always open to me). The only way I was able to fully rejoin the human race was through coming out as a woman and embracing neo-Paganism, which happened simultaneously.

[Hypatia]

One thought has been clarified through all this discussion:

Many of us, myself included, look like we're going out of our way to ostentatiously emphasize how girly we always were. As in "the lady doth protest too much." No, it isn't protesting too much, it needs to be made explicit because my family closed their eyes to my femininity and refused to acknowledge it. If they hadn't imprisoned me in a male gender role through their denial, I wouldn't need to talk about it, it's self-evident. They've put me in a double bind: If I don't make it explicit, they pretend they don't see it. If I shove it in their face because of frustration at their denial, they claim I'm faking it (for some inexplicable reason). I hope everyone here understands, I'm not arguing with any of you here, I'm arguing with my family, mainly my Mom, somehow I can't rest until my Mom accepts me as I am. She seems determined not to see the real me, this is a serious hangup for me.

If only Mom would acknowledge my femininity, I would feel so much more at peace. She's the whole origin of my womanhood, my original role model. It hurts so much to have my relationship with her broken down because of coming out as TS.

[Shana A]

I agree with what you're saying, Zythyra. I did not mean to imply that Secondaries don't have trans feelings. I did exactly what you're saying - the onset of puberty sent me into deep denial from age 11-18. You can't just bear the knowledge that you're a boy turning into a woman. However, I could never hide the fact that I was anything but a girl, to anyone even though I was in such deep denial I assumed I was a girl.
My not being conscious of being male during those years didn't make other people unconscious of it. My assuming I was a girl didn't make me accepted as one. Your true nature shines through, the truth is blatantly obvious to others even if you don't know it.

Nero,

I didn't perceive any negative implications by what you said. There is so much negative baggage with these terms, and hierarchical attitudes resulting from their usage is among the reasons I dislike the primary and secondary classifications. No question regarding varying degrees of intensity of GID that different people feel.

I was also in deep denial for much of my life, even from childhood though, other kids knew who I was and persecuted me as sissy, ->-bleeped-<-, girl, etc. In addition I'm a survivor of rape at age 16, so the pstd was an issue when I was in therapy. I'd basically numbed down my emotions.

I like your quote about our true nature shining through, what a world it would be if we'd been celebrated for that light our whole lives instead of persecuted and hated.

zythyra

PS, you gotta ditch these trans "friends" who are dissing you for who you are.

[Hypatia]

One symptom of post traumatic stress would be to repress feelings. I had a conversation with my therapist about this some years ago, she said that as trans people, many of us had experienced PTSD. It is indeed possible for someone to deeply repress their trans feelings for YEARS, and then wake up one day to suddenly realize who they are.

zythyra

Right on, sister. I wish this was better understood. At least I wish my mother understood it. She knows damn well the traumas I went through in childhood.

Posted on: July 17, 2007, 10:36:05 AM

I agree with what you're saying, Zythyra. I did not mean to imply that Secondaries don't have trans feelings. I did exactly what you're saying - the onset of puberty sent me into deep denial from age 11-18. You can't just bear the knowledge that you're a boy turning into a woman. However, I could never hide the fact that I was anything but a girl, to anyone even though I was in such deep denial I assumed I was a girl.
My not being conscious of being male during those years didn't make other people unconscious of it. My assuming I was a girl didn't make me accepted as one. Your true nature shines through, the truth is blatantly obvious to others even if you don't know it.

So that's why they always called me "girl" in school.

I can relate well to this, Nero... I consistently failed at male socialization throughout my life, except in arty subcultures like music where gender rules were openly flexible.

Only two times have I voluntarily chosen all-male settings: one of them was the Scouts, where I began having sex with boys and then got raped, and the other was a group studied by a woman scholar as, interestingly, a program that feminized men.

[Shiranai Hito]

Did you not read my disclaimer? I'm not saying that all secondaries are like that. Every single observation on some secondaries I've made in this entire thread, is all stuff I've actually heard secondaries I know say 100x over.
Not a bit of it is exaggerated

I did read it.
However it doesn't change the meaning of what you said. If you really believe that those behaviour patterns could be equally found in primary or secondary then you wouldn't need to mention secondary at all, and your disclaimer would have been different something like "i've seen this only in secondary but well it has nothing to do with that because some primary might also be like this".

But that's not what you said. while you certainly did say that not all secondary fall in that description, you certainly made it clear that if someone behave like that, it's most probably a secondary not a primary, which is still a discriminating factor.

I quote one of your statements:

Any 'man' who can rant for a straight hour about the 'patriarchy' is NOT primary no matter what criteria he fits.

So basically you are saying that while you cannot tell who is primary, you can however tell who is NOT primary whenever that person shows some "symptomps" (the one you listed) that are not exactly flattering.

Hey to avoid any misunderstandment, i'm not feeling offended. You said before you were sick about being politically correct, so just say what you think, i'm interested in your sincere opinion, not the acceptable version.

[Sarah Louise]

Several have given answers to this question, myself included, but for one reason or another you keep coming back to the same question. 

So, I have a question for you Regina;  How would (or what is) you answer this question?

Sarah L.

[tinkerbell]

I know (am acquainted with) three women from another internet forum (two of whom I've also met). They all transitioned before 20 and have been transitioned for 30 years or more. All of them insist they're online to help newbies, which is great. Unfortunately, what I've seen instead is they're all still fighting their own battles about being trans. They are obsessed with their own passability (which, in one case is naturally very good, in another case very good after a recent trip to Dr. O and in another case not nearly as good as it was when she was young). They are all obsessed with why they are trans (and two are still going over the DES business). Two have been married for periods of time (but are now divorced).  Two of them seem to hang with a unusually large number of transwomen (one's in a long relationship with another long-term transitioning transwoman after being in relationships with men). One of them only hangs with men. All of them seem to be in a prolonged cycle of reprocessing their lives, their transitions, and how impossible it was for them to live as males (again, they all transitioned before becoming adult males).

What I have learned from these women (not so much from what they've said, but the subjects they choose to talk  about and how they selectively share their lives) is they all have quite a bit of shame about who they are, that they still don't feel 'real' no matter how much they insist they are (because they're obsessed with talking about this subject).

You know Gina, I have to agree with what you say here.  My "alert system" is going off as well.  I'm not quite clear about something though.  Why would anyone who transitioned during their late teens visit Dr. O or Dr. Z?   Most of the people (I know) who transitioned early in life (late teens and early twenties) are almost impossible to clock as TS.  It seems, to me, that these women you talk about suffer from some kind of body dysmorphic disorder if they are constantly seeking opportunities to surgically enhance their features.  To be honest I have met a few of them as well, "my breasts are larger than yours so I am "more" of a woman than you" kind of thing.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having transsexual friends, but if someone who transitioned young is "always" hanging out with trans people, I have to wonder why this is.  Does this person feel more at ease with trans folks? or is this person not comfortable enough to socialize with cisgender people yet?

Regarding passability, there comes a time in the life of a TS (me as an example) when this is not such a big issue anymore.  I know I pass 100% of the time.  I realized this many years ago and closed that chapter of my struggle so to speak.  Been there, done that, and now, I don't even think about it.  As with any other cisgender woman, I like going to the hair dresser on a regular basis;  I love having my nails done bi-weekly; I also enjoy dressing well when opportunities present (i.e, a social gathering, a family reunion, an important meeting at work, etc).  However, at home, I am all shorts and t-shirts, very old (actually ancient) slippers, and naturally I don't wear makeup.  If I have to go to the grocery store, the post office or open the door for the UPS guy, this is what they see, a plain Tink without any makeup and all the adornments that others are so fond of wearing.  This is why I think that there are some unresolved issues with these women you talk about, but like I usually say, whatever!

I'm going to be a little blunt if you'll permit me:

I've actually had clowns (some of whom frequent this board) tell me I'm not trans.
For silly reasons like:

a. I have medical issues which prevent me from being on testosterone at this time.

b. I have no desire for a cock, and wouldn't trade my [meow] for the world.

c. I have some effeminate mannerisms and phrases.

d. I'm bisexual.

Nero, if you allow me, you shouldn't be listening to this rubbish.  Obviously these people you talk about are stupid  (yes, whoever you are, you heard me correctly, you are STUPID)

I would like to know who these people are, for I want to tell them a few things myself.

Anyway, I think I am going to rest from this thread now.  

tink

P.S.  Yeah, I left work a bit early today, for I had some errands to run...

[Thundra]

However - I was dressing as a man in my teens, then living as a non-passable male called 'Joe'.
The difference is I've already lived a man's life - the type of man's life I doubt many post-transition ftms will experience. I was accepted and treated as an equal by other men - and these were no pansy boys, but hardcore ex-cons with gallons of machismo and testosterone flowing through their veins. Living in the world of men, bonding with men, 'being' a man (albeit unpassable), is worth far more than all the facial hair, all the body hair, all the musculature, all these things that ftms obsess over.
One sign you're not being treated as female: You're deep in conversation with some guys, and one of the wives enters and a respectful hush falls over the room.

Having a guy who acts like a girl tell me I'm not trans is laughable.

Back on topic:
I don't know how to make this any more clear. Transitioning at 20 years old does not a primary make.

Primary = childhood (usually birth) onset

Secondary = adulthood onset

That's why doll. That's all there is to it.

Well, that is certainly one POV N.

However. You just described a goodly part of my life too dude. I'm old school, and to be perfectly honest with you, you sound more like a throwback than a person that transitions.

Back in the day my friend, there was no top surgery let alone bottom surgery. Plenty of women identified as female and as a man in the sociological sense. Plenty of women dressed as men, had relationships with women, and were the man in that relationship. While some wanted a dick, or to have their tits whacked off, not all did. I have plenty of friends right now, my age or older that still feel this way and practice that lifestyle. I don't pass as a guy except when I want to, and I am still accepted and have bonded with plenty of guys just as you have described.

So, from my POV, attitude alone does not a transman make.

Another point you made is that there must have been primaries back in the 1800's or whenever. But I am not so sure of that either. I think a lot of this stuff is being created as we go along. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that have transitioned even to the point of surgery, that would have never even thought about being the different gender were it not for the advent of modern science, and the medical establishment setting up their surgical merry go round. While there have always been folk that desired to live in the opposite gender role, the vast majority would remain their birth sex even if given the choice to have a surgical outcome.

I think what you are arguing is kinda what I put forward earlier. That a primary can only be applied to someone that never acclimated to, nor accepted their biologically linked gender role from birth. That makes sense if you are going to differentiate using a binary system of demarcation. However, I think a binary system is a mistake and only continues the mistakes that were made towards this community previously.

I keep going back and asking myself -- why does it matter? Same problems for the most part. Slight modifications in treatment regime. Everybody gets herded (moo!) toward the same outcome. So, other than validating the people that feel they are primaries v. secondaries, why worry about it? It's like a non-issue to me. The more I consider it, the more I realize that I'm wasting my energy even talking about it.

Put a fork in me already.