On the born female perspective

[ThePhoenix]

That's awesome hon! Really, I'm glad. I've held myself in a lot. Especially since I've been admin. As mod, I really didn't.  But really we need your perspective. And really anyone who will talk about female issues. Female issues are trans issues. Most people here either are or have spent time as women. Women's issues are trans issues.

I'm so excited that even though I don't believe in the reputation system I think I'm going to +1 you!

I believe there are no men's issues and no women's issues, no gay issues and no straight issues, no trans* issues, and no cis issues.  There are only human issues.  And, alas, a lot of human beings choosing to turn their backs on a lot of other human beings. 

After the last meeting of my org's support group, I ended up giving a huge to a transwoman who really epitomizes some of the critique that has been expressed in this thread.  And she just broke down sobbing in my arms.  And I just ended up holding her and letting her cry for the longest time.  This is one of those things that many transwomen don't seem to grasp.  Think about all the times your mother held you.  Women are expected to comforters and nurturers.  However you express it, the fact is that women are expected to be the ones who will care for others. 

In my case, I have an additional layer of that because I'm the head of the org, so of course everyone would expect me to look out for others anyway.  But of course I'm also a woman who worked with another woman to create an org that is all about . . . caring for others.  Woman stuff.  Something men might sometimes do.  But it's not the same and it's not expected to be the same. 

There is a certain measure of sacrifice in that.  And, unlike men who get lots of praise for it, most women don't get acknowledged because it's seen as a woman doing what a woman should do.  I don't feel "less than" for it, and I don't feel diminished by it because it fits very well with how I would choose to be.  In fact, I really don't feel like I'm forced to do it all.  I'm choosing to do it.  But I don't know if I would choose that if I had ever seen the world through the eyes that MAAB people seem to have so often have.

But one of the things I sacrifice is the same thing FA is talking about above.  I'm mom.  I'm expected to make everyone else feel better.  I have to hold in a lot and I don't get to talk about my issues.  And that doesn't change if I go anywhere else.  I'm still expected to be mom.  Until the only place left for me to go is here.  Nothing against here, but to me it's a resource of last resort.  I know this works better for many, and I don't mean that as a criticism of this site.  It's just that to me there is no substitute for face to face.

When I see transwomen come in, totally dominate the space, and fill it up so there's no room and no thought given to the needs of transmen, I sometimes think that is another expectation that they don't grasp.  A woman is expected to nurture and care.  Not dominate and push everyone else out.  That probably has a lot to do with why so many trans* women (and gay men and lesbians and so many others) find acceptance so much easier to gain from ciswomen than cismen as a rule.  The preprogrammed response is to support and care for the person. 

But if you don't have that, or at least a way of coping with that expectation, then a lot of what is expected of women is noticeably missing and wrong.  There is a very real stigma and consequence.  And lots of transwomen aren't programmed that way.

And then, of course, there are adverse consequences if you do nurture others too.  In that way it is sometimes seen as a no win scenario.  But again, I don't see it that way.  But that's a topic for another day.

[suzifrommd]

Late to the party as usual, but I'll try to add some fresh thoughts.

Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Is being a woman better than being a man? Depends on what you want and who you are.

By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

[Nero]

[Quote and post Removed by OP]

Well, I really don't want to offend anyone, least of all you. But I think this is a big issue and I think it's at the heart of the rad fems' nastiness. (they're horrible; I don't condone them). If the sexes were equal, being trans probably wouldn't be seen as a big deal. But they're not. So we've got men born into women's status and women born into men's status. And it causes upheaval. Because those statuses are not equal.

[Nero]

That's awesome hon! Really, I'm glad. I've held myself in a lot. Especially since I've been admin. As mod, I really didn't.  But really we need your perspective. And really anyone who will talk about female issues. Female issues are trans issues. Most people here either are or have spent time as women. Women's issues are trans issues.

I'm so excited that even though I don't believe in the reputation system I think I'm going to +1 you!

I believe there are no men's issues and no women's issues, no gay issues and no straight issues, no trans* issues, and no cis issues.  There are only human issues.  And, alas, a lot of human beings choosing to turn their backs on a lot of other human beings. 

After the last meeting of my org's support group, I ended up giving a huge to a transwoman who really epitomizes some of the critique that has been expressed in this thread.  And she just broke down sobbing in my arms.  And I just ended up holding her and letting her cry for the longest time.  This is one of those things that many transwomen don't seem to grasp.  Think about all the times your mother held you.  Women are expected to comforters and nurturers.  However you express it, the fact is that women are expected to be the ones who will care for others. 

In my case, I have an additional layer of that because I'm the head of the org, so of course everyone would expect me to look out for others anyway.  But of course I'm also a woman who worked with another woman to create an org that is all about . . . caring for others.  Woman stuff.  Something men might sometimes do.  But it's not the same and it's not expected to be the same. 

There is a certain measure of sacrifice in that.  And, unlike men who get lots of praise for it, most women don't get acknowledged because it's seen as a woman doing what a woman should do.  I don't feel "less than" for it, and I don't feel diminished by it because it fits very well with how I would choose to be.  In fact, I really don't feel like I'm forced to do it all.  I'm choosing to do it.  But I don't know if I would choose that if I had ever seen the world through the eyes that MAAB people seem to have so often have.

But one of the things I sacrifice is the same thing FA is talking about above.  I'm mom.  I'm expected to make everyone else feel better.  I have to hold in a lot and I don't get to talk about my issues.  And that doesn't change if I go anywhere else.  I'm still expected to be mom.  Until the only place left for me to go is here.  Nothing against here, but to me it's a resource of last resort.  I know this works better for many, and I don't mean that as a criticism of this site.  It's just that to me there is no substitute for face to face.

When I see transwomen come in, totally dominate the space, and fill it up so there's no room and no thought given to the needs of transmen, I sometimes think that is another expectation that they don't grasp.  A woman is expected to nurture and care.  Not dominate and push everyone else out.  That probably has a lot to do with why so many trans* women (and gay men and lesbians and so many others) find acceptance so much easier to gain from ciswomen than cismen as a rule.  The preprogrammed response is to support and care for the person. 

But if you don't have that, or at least a way of coping with that expectation, then a lot of what is expected of women is noticeably missing and wrong.  There is a very real stigma and consequence.  And lots of transwomen aren't programmed that way.

And then, of course, there are adverse consequences if you do nurture others too.  In that way it is sometimes seen as a no win scenario.  But again, I don't see it that way.  But that's a topic for another day.

Oh yeah, you can tell the feminine souls from a mile away sometimes. Raised female or not.

[Edge]

I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks.

I don't mean to argue and just playing the devil's advocate here. I've known, heard of, and read about some pretty horrible mothers.

[Nero]

Late to the party as usual, but I'll try to add some fresh thoughts.

Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Is being a woman better than being a man? Depends on what you want and who you are.

By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

Oh, you're fine, hon. Sometimes I wonder if the joys of being female aren't best expressed by those who've arrived late. And I don't mean that in a condescending manner. I feel lucky to have escaped a lot of the stifling crap traditional boyhood has to offer.

[ThePhoenix]

I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

For the record, I was not thinking of you when I posted that.  I make it a practice to avoid commenting on anyone specific.  I do not comment on people's presentation, etc. unless it is to (very rarely) give a compliment.  I figure that's a good way to avoid fights.  I'll call people out on some of their actions, but I'll sit on my hands and bite my tongue about presentation for good or ill because even compliments to one person may be taken by others as a condemnation by omission of them.  But I am not commenting one anyone's specific presentation nor am I in a position to assess whether you have or have not spent time with women (or men or raccoons).

With that said, I will admit that in this instance there is one transwoman who is very difficult for me to keep out of my head.  It was an individual that came to an outdoor picnic li attended ast year.  Before she came out to join the picnic, she spent two hours in the restroom applying makeup and getting dressed.  She wore ornate, blingy jewelry, and a formal gown.  To an outdoor picnic with barbecuing going on and games being played.  She didn't seem to notice that she was a teeny bit overdressed.  I love picnics, but I must admit that it has never occurred to me to wear something like that to one.  So unless you are that extreme, you can safely assume that I didn't have you in mind.

With that in mind, I do have a couple of thoughts on the rest of the post, not in the order originally written.

Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Do you understand how this statement, undoubtedly intended as praise, could become limiting for women?  Yes, motherhood is magic.  But it's not all there is in life.  But if it truly is the best, greatest thing and so much greater than what men can do. . . . Isn't that what women should be doing then?  Making babies?  Because anything less is somehow lesser? 

I can't have kids.  It's not a trans* issue for me.  I just can't regardless.  So am I condemned to a diminished life?  Many women with infertility issues struggle with exactly that feeling.  Because they are taught that the highest, greatest good they can have in life is to have a child.  If womanhood is magic because of motherhood, as you say above, then what does that mean for women with infertility?  As a transwoman, you won't be able to have children either.  Does that mean you're not magic?

I'm sorry to pick on you.  I don't mean this to put you down at all.  I just ask these questions so that maybe we can start to think about how these things play out.  People perceived as female are powerfully affected by this very perception.  But MAAB trans* people seldom give them a second thought. 

By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

Hey, I already said I live in skinny jeans too.   And for similar reasons.  My legs are one of my better features and skinny jeans do flatter them.  I also like the way they feel. 

I would never say that a person should not dress or express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.  But I would ask the following two questions:

(1)  Authentically what?  Being authentically you is the most important thing.  But it does beg the question of what that means?  Is it really authentic femininity or is it something else?
(2)  What's with all the focus on clothes?  Being a woman is about so much more.  So why are we so focused on talking about clothes largely to the exclusion of other things. 

The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I have to admit I don't know how to respond to this one.  I know that testosterone made me more uptight, but I don't remember it making me more tender.  This is a challenge for me to discuss in this way because the effects of estrogen feel more like baseline to me.  The effects of having taken T feel like changes.  E feels like undoing changes.  That makes it hard for me to really assess what is the impact of estrogen. 

[Jessika Lin]

I tend to agree with what Suzi said.  ^

Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

Most of the stuff I've read about blending, which is to say, the guides and whatnot for presenting as female, seem to be all about becoming a living stereotype (I hate stereotypes). Maybe I've just had bad luck in finding good advice/guides, I don't know. I'll more than likely just do the same as Suzi and find my own style. Hell, I don't even like following character build guides (in online/offline games) and much prefer to make a character that is uniquely my own, so why would I do the real-life equivalent?

Socially, I've done a lot of observing, and fairly little practical. I blame it on several moves when I was a kid, and practically becoming a hermit as an adult, though I'm sure the relentless bullying had some impact too. If I'm lucky maybe that means I have less social programming to overcome.

Anyway, I tend to view the 'being female is magical' thing less literally than maybe some people interpret. I mean I don't imagine that transitioning to female is suddenly going to bestow magic powers on me or suddenly make everything all sunshine and rainbows, but *being* in a body that (finally) feels right for me, *feeling* comfortable in my body. That *will* be magical, to me at least.

Hopefully at least some of that was relevant, I'm down to my last coping mechanism which is essentially 'don't think' and years of shutting off my brain seems to have taken a toll.

Oh and if anyone (such as FA) wants to give any tips on how to present (convincingly) as a (non-stereotypical) female, you'll have my full attention. I'll never turn my nose up at advice from those with experience.

[Nero]

I don't know. I'm really trying not to offend anybody with this topic. I guess I'm just trying to say that gender isn't as simple as pink and blue. Because being born female is seen as being less. And growing up with that. And that part really can't be remedied. I'm male now, but I didn't grow up with that. I'm never going to have that. As worthless as it may seem to others who were assigned male at birth. No matter how great someone's parents are, they can't shut off society.

I wish gender were simple, equal. But it's not. We don't grow up the same, get the same messages. Growing up female is to get the constant message you are less, and less is ever expected of you. If you're good at anything, it's a shock and pleasant surprise.

[Sarah Louise]

Its your perspective and you have every right to express it.

Truthfully my sister would express the same thing, our mother didn't respect her, our mother always felt our older brother was more important and better than either of us.  My sister had to overcome many difficulties created by how our own mother treated her.

[Carrie Liz]

Sorry... I know I'm one of the people who is always posting about how FAAB have more freedom in terms of gender expression without being as ostracized by society.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'll admit, I can't help it. When you've spent your whole life idolizing everything about a certain gender, and hating everything about your own, it's hard to not be biased.

[Ltl89]

I don't know. I'm really trying not to offend anybody with this topic. I guess I'm just trying to say that gender isn't as simple as pink and blue. Because being born female is seen as being less. And growing up with that. And that part really can't be remedied. I'm male now, but I didn't grow up with that. I'm never going to have that. As worthless as it may seem to others who were assigned male at birth. No matter how great someone's parents are, they can't shut off society.

I wish gender were simple, equal. But it's not. We don't grow up the same, get the same messages. Growing up female is to get the constant message you are less, and less is ever expected of you. If you're good at anything, it's a shock and pleasant surprise.

I wouldn't deny that.  I think you have a point and most people here wouldn't really argue with it.  It's just that growing up as a transgirl in a boys world also presents it's own difficulties.  It may not always be as hard and the status aspect of society does tip in the "males" favor, but it doesn't mean all people assigned MAB had it necessarily easy.  I don't think that's what you saying at all, but it can be misinterpreted.   Being FAAB or MAAB are just different experiences that are unique in their own way, both were there own struggles and hardships.  Though I would agree that societally speaking men are often placed in a higher status for the sole purpose of their gender and there is no denying that it can have a major negative impact on those FAAB.

[Ltl89]

Sorry... I know I'm one of the people who is always posting about how FAAB have more freedom in terms of gender expression without being as ostracized by society.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'll admit, I can't help it. When you've spent your whole life idolizing everything about a certain gender, and hating everything about your own, it's hard to not be biased.

I think it's more of a matter that the social expectations for both genders are rigid in different ways.  For those that don't fit into the mold somehow, it can be fairly disturbing in many ways.  That in itself can cause someone to idolize the so called "opposite" because they feel a greater sense of belonging with them then where they were placed. 

[Nero]

Oh and if anyone (such as FA) wants to give any tips on how to present (convincingly) as a (non-stereotypical) female, you'll have my full attention. I'll never turn my nose up at advice from those with experience.

Thanks hon. 

Its your perspective and you have every right to express it.

Truthfully my sister would express the same thing, our mother didn't respect her, our mother always felt our older brother was more important and better than either of us.  My sister had to overcome many difficulties created by how our own mother treated her.

Thanks hon.

I don't think I'm articulating this well. (Not relating to anyone's post).

[Nero]

I wouldn't deny that.  I think you have a point and most people here wouldn't really argue with it.  It's just that growing up as a transgirl in a boys world also presents it's own difficulties.  It may not always be as hard and the status aspect of society does tip in the "males" favor, but it doesn't mean all people assigned MAB had it necessarily easy.  I don't think that's what you saying at all, but it can be misinterpreted.   Being FAAB or MAAB are just different experiences that are unique in their own way, both were there own struggles and hardships.  Though I would agree that societally speaking men are often placed in a higher status for the sole purpose of their gender and there is no denying that it can have a major negative impact on those FAAB.

Oh yeah. That's why I presented the example of the white dude in a trailer. Because talking about race and how it affects non-whites doesn't mean whites have it good. Nobody's saying that even if it sounds that way. Like, okay, say we have a male baby in a trailer being horribly abused. Talking about the sexism a little rich girl will experience doesn't diminish what he's going through. His being abused and her having a comparatively good life doesn't mean sexism isn't a thing. It's two different things. If that little girl has a better life than that little boy, it doesn't mean she didn't experience sexism. One has nothing to do with another.

I'm just saying being born female (and recognized as such) confers a minority status on its own regardless of who the person is or how he or she identifies. And regardless of whether a zillion male babies (no matter how they later identify) have horrible childhoods. And that it seems like everyone forgets about this.

[Hayley]

So I am not sure what I'm going to write here but it may just be word vomit because something about this made me think about my past. I will never know what it was like for FAAB being treated as a "lesser" or a minority I know it is true I've seen it enough growing up spending time with the "jock" kids seeing how they treated women. It was awful and that isn't to say every guy is like that but I can see your point about being raised FAAB. Every person has their own hardships regardless of gender they've been assigned. I can add a bit to being treated as less than someone though. My "father" was never around. Gone before I can remember. My "dad" raised me and my brother his bio-son. I am four years older than him. I spent my whole child good trying to be as good as my little brother was in my "dad's" eyes. No matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked or how good I was at baseball (pretty good) I wasn't his child. I could see it when he looked at me. The way I could never be right or it was always let your brother win. I tried for years to win affection from that man. Despite signs that he was an awful human being. I know what it is like to not be seen for a full person. I would go into the expectations I had with sports but those ended when my shoulder got destroyed, but it's funny how people can get tossed away like a broken toy. Sorry for the rant/vomit. I will say I love listening to advice from others. Regardless of if I end up following it but different perspectives always help to form better picture of life.

[Nero]

So I am not sure what I'm going to write here but it may just be word vomit because something about this made me think about my past. I will never know what it was like for FAAB being treated as a "lesser" or a minority I know it is true I've seen it enough growing up spending time with the "jock" kids seeing how they treated women. It was awful and that isn't to say every guy is like that but I can see your point about being raised FAAB. Every person has their own hardships regardless of gender they've been assigned. I can add a bit to being treated as less than someone though. My "father" was never around. Gone before I can remember. My "dad" raised me and my brother his bio-son. I am four years older than him. I spent my whole child good trying to be as good as my little brother was in my "dad's" eyes. No matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked or how good I was at baseball (pretty good) I wasn't his child. I could see it when he looked at me. The way I could never be right or it was always let your brother win. I tried for years to win affection from that man. Despite signs that he was an awful human being. I know what it is like to not be seen for a full person. I would go into the expectations I had with sports but those ended when my shoulder got destroyed, but it's funny how people can get tossed away like a broken toy. Sorry for the rant/vomit. I will say I love listening to advice from others. Regardless of if I end up following it but different perspectives always help to form better picture of life.

That's okay, honey. I felt the same from my father. We have a lot better relationship now though, thankfully.

[Edge]

I wasn't good enough for my family either. My dad vocally expected me to get myself knocked up, thought I was into drugs, etc.

[Nero]

Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

[Hayley]

I wasn't good enough for my family either. My dad vocally expected me to get myself knocked up, thought I was into drugs, etc.

Sad, I'm sorry that you had to go thru that I really can't understand it when people are jerks like that. I was just saying that I watched someone get treated noticeably better than me by the man that raised us just because I wasn't truly "his". It wasn't like he abused me. He just made sure my brother was perfect before checking if I was ok. That's is really the only thing I was trying to say... I think. It was a bit rambly. The rest of my family treated me well I would say. Either way past is past and life moves on regardless of the role we play.