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Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????

Started by Godiva, July 17, 2007, 06:23:49 AM

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Elizabeth

Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 09:43:06 AM
Quote
Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????

those who really don't want to transition

I think you are right about that, but I have a hard time believing these people would transition if allowed to. They are like people that spend their whole life talking about the tattoo or piercing they are going to get, but never do.

So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.

Anyway, food for thought.

Love always,
Elizabeth
  •  

taru

Androgynes transitioning are consistently misdiagnosed as TS. This is mostly because to transition everyone needs to be diagnosed as TS. The system does not catch this since it is trivial to fool it by conforming to the expected answers.

I don't know anyone regretting treatment. But I know several TS people on DIY because they are not given the diagnose.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.

Anyway, food for thought.

Love always,
Elizabeth

   Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary?  She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.

   Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.


Rebis
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Rebis on July 21, 2007, 02:59:48 PM

   Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary?  She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.

   Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.


Rebis

Yeah, Kate Bornstein, Dr. Renee Richards, Dani Bunten Berry, Sandra MacDougall, Samantha Kane plus many others.  You can read more about their stories here:

Transsexual Regret and Reparative Therapy

Gender Role Reversal among Post-operative Transsexuals


tink :icon_chick:

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Lisbeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 09:43:06 AM
Quote
Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????

those who really don't want to transition

I think you are right about that, but I have a hard time believing these people would transition if allowed to. They are like people that spend their whole life talking about the tattoo or piercing they are going to get, but never do.

So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.

Anyway, food for thought.

Love always,
Elizabeth
I've heard of a number who went into RLE and found it wasn't working and went back.  I've heard of a number who went through GRS and found it wasn't what they wanted and had reverse surgery.  But as far as I know, nobody has done a study to identify what the characteristics of these people are.  Until that happens, therapists will be working only from assumptions, not facts.

Posted on: July 21, 2007, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on July 21, 2007, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.

Anyway, food for thought.

Love always,
Elizabeth

   Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary?  She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.

   Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.


Rebis
I've heard of any number of who got through surgery and desided that looking back on it it wasn't important.  Basicaly a form of what psychologists call "hindsight bias."  Just because someone gets to the end and says, "I didn't need to do this," doesn't mean that perspective is true.  Maybe they feel like they don't need it now, but they sure felt like they needed it before.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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taru

One common feature here is that these people do get SRS even with the current system. Thus SOC is not succesful in weeding them out, but still costs and slows everyone down.

For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.

Also it is our own body and I believe in bodily autonomy.
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Tay

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 17, 2007, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.


So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hysterectomy or tube tying is nearly impossible to get, actually, without a valid medical condition.  Especially if you are childfree and unmarried.  Gastric bypass has extensive medical standards that are supposed to be met. 

Posted on: July 22, 2007, 02:38:59 AM
Quote from: Rebis on July 18, 2007, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: Rebis on July 17, 2007, 06:17:48 PM
    I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
    Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.

What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?

Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.

In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.


   It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.  They should be treated as androgynes; given the opportunity to understand their nature before making the decision. I only meant we should be weeded out in order to ascertain what our individual needs are.

I'd be one of the ones looking for surgical assistance in altering my body. 

If I had gone to a plastic surgeon without understanding my condition?  I'd be sporting a pair of double ds right now.  I honestly believed that to make myself be a girl, I just needed bigger boobs. 

Personally, I tend to think that any surgery for a non-physically life threatening condition should have psych SOC.  Breast augmentation, gastric bypass, hysto... all of them.  At least one appointment to discuss things.  Because I could have made a MASSIVE mistake.
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tinkerbell

Quote from: taru on July 22, 2007, 02:16:48 AM
For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.


Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID?  Thanks very much hon.

tink :icon_chick:
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taru

Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 02:48:12 AM
Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID?  Thanks very much hon.

What kind of evidence do you want?

I know several local people who have been refused treatment by the local system (as find an another therapist is not an option here). Most seem to end up on DIY hormones and grow anxious/depressed. I know at least one suicide attempt because of this from a small sample pool. It seems that usually the doctor changes or they get better at giving the expected answers at some point and finally get the diagnose after needless suffering.
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tinkerbell

Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay.  Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.

tink :icon_chick:


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Thundra

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!   Oh MY GODDESS!!!!

This reminds me so much of the exercise way back in my PSU days where in Speech Comp., one person whispers something to another person who whispers to another and on and on.
At the end of the circle, the last person to get the news whispers it back to the original person that started the gossip. And guess what, not only is the message completely wrong, it has totally lost it's original intent.

Since this quote is atributed to me, I feel I best clarify my point:

QuoteThey are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

So, who are these mythical people that needed to be weeded out that I am supposedly excluding for their own good?  Only they know who they are!  I personally have never net a single person that was transitioning, had transitioned, or had surgery that regreted it even a little bit! And I have been around a looooong time.

So, my point about the SOC is that they are not necessary. They are a moot point, set up back at the beginning of this exodus to provide cover for the surgeons against the uncertainty of a pioneering treatment. Have we already forgotten that this cottage industry was only created roughly 50 years ago? Nowadays, does anyone know anyone that regrets any choices they have made? Seriously?  Anyone?

So many people have gone thru the SOC at this point that it should be obvious to even nitwits like me that they are an unnecessary bottleneck. Every person has to follow the same guidelines, and take roughly the same amount of time even though everyone comes at this differently. It's speaks to the ridiculous for my part. Each person should be able to proceed at their own pace without having to meet some arbitrary time guideline or paperwork issue. This has been going on for decades. Don't you think that if mass groups of people were going to throw themselves off of a bridge out of regret, or despair, that it would have already occured?

Now, thses guidelines that were set up back in the day may have been deemed necessary back then, but I don't believe they are valid anymore. That is my big flippin' opinion. They may not be a financial hardship to someone that has a lot of money stashed away, or a retirement fund to tap, or a great paying job. But for the average person slaving away at the bottom, forcing someone to go thru a process, where:  they have to pay all of the costs toward (the US is not GB or O' Canada) including so many sessions for this therapy and so many sessions for that therapy, simply to get a letter that has about as much value these days as a lincoln penny, is a coersive and undo burden on clients seeking treatment. Also my opinion. Dig?

Anyone can get one, because anyone serious about this process we are discussing is willing to undergo tremendous hardship to do so. But, if it proves nothing but the fact that they can make enough money to pay off some therapists for a letter that anyone can get, than WTF are we doing? Those people in the bottom category could be saving their money to get surgery or FFS or some other thing that is way more important toward their eventual transition than paying some therapists and doctors to have permission to do something that they then have to pay for out of their own pocket. This speaks to me of a collusion between the surgeons and the medical health people (wink, wink, nod, nod) to to ensure everyone is making money off of this deal.

NOW! If the medical professionals want to restrict the ability of people to get the treatment they need to those willing to get a letter, than those same medical professionals better make damn sure that they also see to it that they find a way to pay for that service as well. Because they have no business controlling access to something someone else is paying for out of their own pocket. That is definitely my opinion. What the healthcare systems in Canada and GB do is different story. But in the US, it's every man and woman for themselves.

Further, if we go back to my original comments, they were made in reaction to the story posted about the person in GB that transitioned and then regretted it. THAT mythical person. But if this person with regret went thru the entire SOC process, and made it to surgery, WTF are the SOC for? Here is the perfect example of someone that transitioned and then had regret afterward. That is one out of how many? One out of a thousand, ten-thousand, or more? There is the one person where anyone has heard about regret in how many years and the SOC could not prevent them from self destruction? Than WHAT GOOD ARE THEY!????

So, let's review kids. The SOC don't really benefit people that transition and then have regret.
They don't help those mutitude that go thru the process and get a letter that proves nothing in particular, other than they are willing to pay a bunch of money on an hourly basis to a bunch of medical healthcare professionals that then give them a letter as long as they are not psychotic, I guess? One therapist can't tell that in a visit or two?

So, who exactly IS the SOC benefitting? Well, the medical healthcare people are guaranteed a certain amount of money per patient until they deem it appropriate to give them the letters they need. The surgeons benefit because having the patient go thru the letter process almost guarantees them a good case in their favor if the highly unlikey mythical patient of regret shows up on their doorstep later on. I see a collusion. A form of piracy. That IS my opinion. Show me another surgical procedure where the patient is FORCED to undergo a mental health evaluation before a surgeon will operate. It's absurd. That is also my opinion.

My solution? Abolish the SOC.  Force the medical community to treat you on an individual basis, the same way as all other surgeons have to treat their patients. Don't you people get that you are their boss? YOU are paying them for a sevice. They have to answer to you, not you to them. At this point, the record will show that the risk to a surgeon performing SRS on a patient in matters other than medical liability on a purely physical basis is negligible. Time has shown that the mythical legion of SRS patients that march post-op into a surgeons office and demanding a refund are simply not going to materialize. This whole process is stuck in a time warp, and it is for reasons more political than practical.

C'mon people. It's your money, and your time, and your life. Caveat Emptor. Watch out for your own interests, cause they don't give a damn about you. How do I know?  ;)  Try getting treatment in the US without $$$.  Go ahead. Try. See how far you get. The SOC and the medical people can kiss my skinny white ass.
  •  

Suzie

It seems to me that if a MTF is going to

a) spend countless hours having electrolysis (or laser) removing facial hair
b) come out to your family, friends and workplace with full knowledge of potentially losing your family, friends and job
c) spend a year of RLE dealing with certain awkwardness to varying degrees
d) take hormones that will modify your body, decrease your sex drive considerably and usually cause you to become sterile
e) spending major $$$ in the process

I can't think of any other hoop that someone should be expected to pass through.  Give that person surgery ASAP!  Free of charge if I had my say.

So to answer the question, who will be weeded out?  By deduction, anyone who can't fulfill a) - e).  I don't think the SOC is unreasonable, and I think its necessary as it buys the qualified therapist some time to determine if this person is relatively sane (whatever that is).  What are the characteristics of these individuals?  Dont' know, you will have to ask them, cuz I'm in it for the long haul.

Suzie

p.s.  HBIGDA has changed their name to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).  Their new website is http://wpath.org/
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Thundra

Quotep.s.  HBIGDA has changed their name to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).  Their new website is http://wpath.org/

Yeah? Well, then they can kiss my ass too.
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Berliegh

Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 06:06:30 PM
Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay.  Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.

tink :icon_chick:




It's certainly not hearsay in the U.K and many of us have reported the pdychiatrists to the GMC and Healthcare Commiission. These people are not the medical community (they are not technicians or surgeons) just a brick wall between patient and treatment..

Posted on: July 23, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 02:48:12 AM
Quote from: taru on July 22, 2007, 02:16:48 AM
For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.


Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID?  Thanks very much hon.

tink :icon_chick:

Tink, I can give you some of the names of the suicide cases in the U.K who attended Charing Cross GIC off forum
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taru

Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 06:06:30 PM
Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay.  Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.

Seems like the proof you want is outing people on the internet, which I am not going to do.

You seem to consistenly forget that we come from different countries with different medical systems. Do you have the slightest idea how the system works here? Or whether the psychiatrists have much experience with GID...

Things don't work the same as in the US and this isn't the first thread when people make the assumption that US situation = world situation.

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Elizabeth

It kinda reminds me of those stupid questions they used to ask at the airport. Have you left you bag unattended? Did anyone ask you to take a bag for them? In the 30+ years these rules were in effect, not once did anyone in any airport ever answer in the affirmative. They decided it was stupid to keep asking the questions.

Transition is the same. We all have "heard" about someone who was allegedly unhappy about transitioning, but it's aways just a story. No one actually knows anyone that this happened to. It's like the lottery, when it does happen out of the thousands and thousands of transsexuals that have surgery every year they say "see?". Of course these people that are unhappy, it turns out did use the SOC. What? How could that be? They followed the SOC and still were unhappy? You mean they lied? Gee, I don't know any transsexuals that lied to their shrink to make sure they got their letters.

Come on, it's time to admit this system is a sham. Everyone knows what to say to the shrinks and more importantly, what not to say. And even if someone messes up, they just go and get another shrink. It's all a huge waste of time and money.

One more quick anecdote. When my brother got burned in an electrical accident at work he was on morphine for pain. The burn centers policy was "no pain". They let the patients decide what they needed and how much. I asked the doctor wasn't this crazy to let the patients decide how much and how long for an incredibly addictive class 1 narcotic? He told me that patients ween themselves off pain medicine before doctors would have. And he said it was a wide margin. People can be trusted with their own lives. They don't want to be drug addicts. They also don't want to change gender. They have to. Let them.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 23, 2007, 03:53:40 AM
ITransition is the same. We all have "heard" about someone who was allegedly unhappy about transitioning, but it's aways just a story. No one actually knows anyone that this happened to. It's like the lottery, when it does happen out of the thousands and thousands of transsexuals that have surgery every year they say "see?". Of course these people that are unhappy, it turns out did use the SOC. What? How could that be? They followed the SOC and still were unhappy? You mean they lied? Gee, I don't know any transsexuals that lied to their shrink to make sure they got their letters.
We occasionally hear of the ones who turn back, because that's news.  We don't hear about the ones who  later regretted turning back.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
  •  

LostInTime

I know people who regretted transitioning and even surgery enough to transition back to their old lives. Pretty much happy too but they did cut all ties to the T community afterwards. Someone I worked with in the past had a relative go through everything (MTF) and after SRS went back to living as a male because he was unhappy. The one common thread is that all of them expected transition and surgery to solve everything. Neither will do that for you, it takes work. Oh and all went through the SoC but I have no idea how honest they were with the therapist or themselves.
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VickieDavis

Quote from: Thundra on July 22, 2007, 07:17:32 PM
... Nowadays, does anyone know anyone that regrets any choices they have made? Seriously?  Anyone? ...

I have met two that have transitioned on the job. Lived full time as women. Then later changed their minds. They were also partners. I am not sure why they are just friends now, but that is how it is. I am a bit too shy and sensitive to ask why, but I should. I what to know for myself and post what I find out for those that are interested.

One still has "her" long hair but now a beard and he is "married" to a genetic woman and seems happy. He met the wife when he was living as a girl, and the wife says she sometimes misses the girl in him, I am told.

The other I know better. She transitioned at the same company where I work. I knew about her, because I heard some of the fall out over the bathroom situation. Several years later I saw on the seniority list that Joan had gone back to John (not the real names.)

As he explained it to me, is work group had a bible study during their breaks. He started getting serious about the bible and religion, and what god might want for his life. This caused him to go back to the catholic faith of his youth. And I guess after a lot of sole searching decided to reverse his transition (again also at work) and live as a man. He sees the same doctor and now gets testosterone instead of estrogen. He seems happy now.  He looks quite androgynous, maybe like a butch lesbian. Probably eats too much food and drinks too many beers, but has not mentioned that he now regrets either transition.

We are good friends now and I often refer to him as "her" to my other friends, because that is how I thought of him for 8 or 10 years, until I got the nerve and opportunity to meet him. I see the same shrink as John and he said to say "Hi" to her. She was quite surprised that he want back to living as a man, and commented on what a cute girl he made.

Too bad I never saw that woman.

Chair Woman of Tennessee Vals (a Nashville based TG support group) http://tvals.org
Treasure of Tennessee Transgender Political Coalition http://ttgpac.com/
  •  

Maud

TBH I've known some completely mental post-op's who couldn't pass their way out of a paper bag who set off every "crazy person" alarm in my head yet still didn't have any regrets and seemed perfectly happy with it.

The approach most therapists I think should take is whether someone can maintain a reasonably normal through transition without turning into a social recluse sitting in a one bedroom flat on benefits.
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