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Difficulties reconciling heterosexuality and androgyny

Started by Pip, April 22, 2014, 02:17:18 PM

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Pip

I've been lurking on these forums for longer than I care to recall, and went so far as to post for a while, but have since forgotten my username and have to now start again.  This is by way of being a disclaimer saying I'm aware that my first post is starting a topic about "my problems" and I'm sorry for my presumption!  I think it might be quite a general problem for androgynous types though so hopefully it may also be useful/interesting for other people.  Also, I felt that this would be a good place to post this, as I wasn't sure where else I could do so where it wouldn't automatically receive a response of "gender norms are sacred! you are wrong to feel this!", and that kind of thing.

To the point!  I'm female but very androgynous, both in appearance and self.  I rejected a lot of aspects of "femininity" and female-socialisation growing up (and still do), partly out of natural disposition, partly due to dislike of having things imposed on me or presumed of me due to my sex.

Generally I sort of pootle along in a genderless haze, but trouble arises when I have sex with men.  With heterosexuality, being "other" to a man, i.e. being put in the position of the "female" in relation to another's "male", feels very difficult for me, and sort of isolates me from my sense of myself as androgynous, and of not being essentially different from men.  This is something that is difficult to maintain when you are face to face, as it were, with male sexual organs that you don't have (elements of jealousy there), with someone who is engaging with you in relation to your female sexual organs.  I was speaking to a friend yesterday and he said that having sex is "when a man feels most masculine", which troubles me: that they are feeling masculine in relation to penetrating me (to put it bluntly), demanding to ejaculate within me, and so on.

I've been seeing a boy (young man, rather) for a month or so and on a personal level everything is good, but having to confront my discomfort with my gender, and these feelings of being forced to engage uniquely as female in opposition to his male, are beginning to wear me out to the point that I feel physically sick and wish I was dead (not to sound overdramatic, but, yes).  I don't know how to bring this up with him.  I feel that perhaps if he were willing to open himself up to "feminine" aspects within himself, and help me accept my feminine aspects that I suppress (from feeling them to be foisted upon me) that this might help, but I think trying to bring this subject up might send him running for the hills (especially as it's quite a heavy subject - given how bad it's making me feel - for only having been seeing each other for such a short space of time), or just generally be really difficult emotionally for us both to deal with.

This all isn't helped by the fact that I'm acutely sensitive to sexual politics and to feeling dominated by sexual behaviour that is informed by a culture that is, in my opinion, based on the prioritisation of men's needs, meaning that to feel forced into the feminine role feels not only contrary to my person, but oppressive of it too.

If anyone has any advice - on how to deal with these feelings, or see them in a different light, or raise them with this boy I'm seeing - or anything, I would be most grateful.
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HorizonBound

Quote from: Pip on April 22, 2014, 02:17:18 PM
Generally I sort of pootle along in a genderless haze, but trouble arises when I have sex with men.  With heterosexuality, being "other" to a man, i.e. being put in the position of the "female" in relation to another's "male", feels very difficult for me, and sort of isolates me from my sense of myself as androgynous, and of not being essentially different from men.  This is something that is difficult to maintain when you are face to face, as it were, with male sexual organs that you don't have (elements of jealousy there), with someone who is engaging with you in relation to your female sexual organs.  I was speaking to a friend yesterday and he said that having sex is "when a man feels most masculine", which troubles me: that they are feeling masculine in relation to penetrating me (to put it bluntly), demanding to ejaculate within me, and so on.

For reference, I'm DMAB genderqueer/ androgyne/ transfeminine something or other ;). I'm attracted to feminine and androgynous people. Pretty much as soon as I hit puberty, I had girls tell me that I acted like a girl in bed. I remember one had this disgusted look on her face and stopped the sexy train after we had already taken our clothes off and were rolling around a while. I never, ever felt like I could relax during sex or be myself at all, I was just so focused on making sure I did it the way a guy was supposed to. So yeah, there's major pressure to perform your gender properly during sex. For a lot of dudes, sex is about affirming their manhood, then it's about pleasure and after that maybe intimacy if you're lucky. :P

The good news is I finally have a girlfriend who really, really digs the way I am now, and that actually helped me accept a lot of my gender issues. Sex is ridiculously amazing now, I'm totally present, connected to my body and my partner, and it's unbelievably fulfilling and hot. You'll have to tell him how you feel, and I'm sorry I can't sugar coat this for you, but he might just go running for the hills. If he does, that means he doesn't accept you for who you are, and you deserve to loved for who you are. You deserve someone who you can be completely authentic with, and they see that and they ache and burn to be with you.

Maybe he'll turn out to be super-open to it, though, and it'll be a transformative adventure for both of you. I hope so, but if not, I guarantee the right guy is out there. If you want something uncommon, the best thing to do is put it right out front on a billboard. It'll drive most people away, but you don't want them anyway, you want to get the attention of that super-rad gem-of-aguy who is just so completely bonkers into you.
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bornpurple

I kinda get how you feel. I'm male/androgyne and I'm mainly attracted to men, especially cis men, so I've been mulling over this problem myself. Luckily the guys that I've tended to go for are more androgynous/feminine in personality and they're comfortable expressing it (or I coax them into it), so I don't have to worry about feeling emasculated. In fact I often end up taking a more dominant role even though I never try to and it sometimes frustrates me, haha.

In the bedroom though, yeah I definitely have had issues with sex because 1. there's jealousy over their genitals and more concrete awareness that I don't have those parts and will probably never have them 2. I like to bottom and so it weirdly makes me aware that those genitals exist for me and also that I'm using them in a very "heterosexual" type act and it completely throws the mood off for me.

The only thing that I can say kind of mirrors what HorizonBound said before me. You should tell your current guy because keeping it inside of you will build up and poison you in the end, plus it won't really help to try to rectify the situation. If he's a decent guy and cares about you, he should be willing to try to work it out. If he's not... then... you probably should find someone who is willing.

When I tried to hide and discount my feelings of discomfort from my first boyfriend, it just led to issues. I got angry and aggressive with him for no reason and then I got severely depressed and dysphoric and eventually suicidal myself. There were other issues going on between both of us as well (since I was a grad student and he was a premed student and we were stressed out by school as well as our own issues) but the non-communication over the gender issue didn't make it any better.

There may be creative solutions that you can find to the issue. Experimentation might help. If you can find a way to express your androgyny and get him to express more androgyny it may feel more comfortable. Also in the bedroom, being on top or in control of the situation might help that feeling of submissiveness. I was hesitant to dom until my partners suggested it and then I found that I was actually a lot more comfortable and less concerned over the state of my own anatomy when I was in control of the situation. I've also heard that strap-ons and such can help too, but I have no personal experience with them.
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Asche

Quote from: Pip on April 22, 2014, 02:17:18 PMI rejected a lot of aspects of "femininity" and female-socialisation growing up (and still do), partly out of natural disposition, partly due to dislike of having things imposed on me or presumed of me due to my sex.

....
This all isn't helped by the fact that I'm acutely sensitive to sexual politics and to feeling dominated by sexual behaviour that is informed by a culture that is, in my opinion, based on the prioritisation of men's needs, meaning that to feel forced into the feminine role feels not only contrary to my person, but oppressive of it too.
I feel like this, too, except that I'm male-bodied, so it's "masculinity" that gets "imposed on me or presumed of me due to my sex."  So far, I haven't found anything in this "masculinity" thing that I want anything to do with (or in the same universe as me), except for the things that are just as appropriate for women (e.g., being responsible and competent.)

The way the sexual politics angle affects me is that I'm acutely sensitive to how the women I encounter have learned to expect/fear this sort of male dominance and coercive sexual behavior.  It bugs me that they (justifiably) feel they have to be always prepared for the possibility that I'm an abuser.  I'm also bothered that I'm "supposed" to act in this domineering way which so goes against the grain.

Quote from: Pip on April 22, 2014, 02:17:18 PM
I was speaking to a friend yesterday and he said that having sex is "when a man feels most masculine", which troubles me: that they are feeling masculine in relation to penetrating me (to put it bluntly), demanding to ejaculate within me, and so on.
I can't say that I particularly "feel most masculine" then, perhaps because I hardly ever "feel masculine" and (with rare exceptions) don't want to.  The idea that I might want to or have to "conquer" my partner is a turn-off for me, not a turn on.  What I usually feel during sex is anxiety, mainly that I won't meet my partner's expectations.  The few times I've been able to just enjoy it have been when it seemed to be just happening to me, without me having to consciously do anything.  What I mainly enjoy are the sensations and the feeling that someone cares about me and wants to be close to me and make me feel safe and feel good.  I'd say "cares about me as I really am," except that I don't think I know how to be as I really am around someone else.

The ways I act (or would like to act) in an intimate relationship, both in bed and out of it, are what most people would call "feminine", or at least they would have in the time and place I grew up.  It's probably totally irrational and a relic of my growing-up, but I have a really hard time convincing myself that there are any women out there who would appreciate my "non-masculinity."
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



CPTSD
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JamesG

Quote from: Asche on April 23, 2014, 10:12:10 PMIt's probably totally irrational and a relic of my growing-up, but I have a really hard time convincing myself that there are any women out there who would appreciate my "non-masculinity."

Actually there a quite a few who like to play domination games.  :police:

But seriously, and without getting all Freudian, a lot of that is wrapped up in how dominating fathers were, and young girl's experience with over-testosteronated teenage boys.  That tends to shape expectations. Some (most?) actually expect it. Part of the genetic selection process (the fittest will chase me down and "take me")?

Like you I've never liked being the exclusively dominate one, or was self-centered (although like everyone, I had my moments).  I always found the most fun part of sex was considering the experience of the other. If they enjoyed it and "got off". In that I think I have a more female perspective on sex. I don't like being a passive participant though (but it can be fun), more like a meeting of equals who are both interested in experiencing the situation not just marking time until the other person is done and stops squirming around.

@ Pip- I definitely think you need to bring up the subject. It is how you have an honest, fulfilling sexual (and otherwise) relationship.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: JamesG on April 23, 2014, 10:40:29 PM
Actually there a quite a few who like to play domination games.
Domination, yes, but that's not really the same as not being the guy. I've tried the BDSM scene, but there's always some sort of humiliation undertone for being a "sissy" that the dommes in that scene are mainly after. It really seems contrary to the acceptance of myself as Trans* for me to go along with that, and also misogynistic for a woman to think less of a guy because he has what are generally considered feminine traits.

I really don't feel comfortable starting things or escalating things. I want a girl to seduce me and not take no for an answer. This happened a few times when I was younger but somehow older women are a lot less likely to do this than younger girls, and I've aged out of that group long ago. I'm not really sure what the answer is for that, but that's really all I want, to play a passive role in a sexual relationship with a woman.

Transitioning won't help that. SRS won't help that. Psychiatric counseling won't help that.

Is there really any answer to my problem?
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JamesG

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 24, 2014, 02:12:01 AM
Is there really any answer to my problem?

Well... unless you hook up with a nymphomaniac, you may have to settle on a lower level of sexual activity until both of you are "on" and she wants to initiate. 
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HorizonBound

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 24, 2014, 02:12:01 AM
Domination, yes, but that's not really the same as not being the guy. I've tried the BDSM scene, but there's always some sort of humiliation undertone for being a "sissy" that the dommes in that scene are mainly after. It really seems contrary to the acceptance of myself as Trans* for me to go along with that, and also misogynistic for a woman to think less of a guy because he has what are generally considered feminine traits.

Its funny, my previous partner was into femdom-style feminization, and it did not work with me at all. Double funny b/c I have a huge submissive & masochistic streak. She said I had this feminine energy in bed that totally threw her off, ha ha! (she's awesome, we're BFF's now but we were not sexually compatible at all, lol) It's kinda hard to transgress my male identity when I don't have one, even if my body would lead someone to believe otherwise. Kinda hard to bend something that's already been tied into intricate knotwork.

I talked with my current partner about this an awful lot. We had to identify the scripts and assumptions we were operating by and consciously set them aside. We talked a lot about how we really felt about the sex we were having, what worked and what didn't work. We ended up having a huge overlap with what we both wanted and what worked. You can't force compatibility if it ain't there, but you can totally mess up what could be awesome sex with trying to do sex "the right way" or "successfully" or "like I'm supposed to."
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Pip

Quote from: HorizonBound on April 22, 2014, 10:54:29 PM
You'll have to tell him how you feel, and I'm sorry I can't sugar coat this for you, but he might just go running for the hills. If he does, that means he doesn't accept you for who you are, and you deserve to loved for who you are. You deserve someone who you can be completely authentic with, and they see that and they ache and burn to be with you.

Maybe he'll turn out to be super-open to it, though, and it'll be a transformative adventure for both of you. I hope so, but if not, I guarantee the right guy is out there. If you want something uncommon, the best thing to do is put it right out front on a billboard. It'll drive most people away, but you don't want them anyway, you want to get the attention of that super-rad gem-of-aguy who is just so completely bonkers into you.

Yes, I reckon you - and bornpurple and JamesG - are right: there's not really any way that not telling him is going to work out well.  I think (hope) I'm game enough to take it in my stride if he does decide I'm not his thing: as you say, if he's not interested, then he's not interested in me, which there isn't much point in wasting my time with.  I think half my worry about telling him is not wanting him to feel that he's wrong, or has been doing something wrong to make me feel bad, when it isn't really personal at all (or if it is, just to the extent of him taking his "man" role for granted).  A dose of tact should cover that though... I can do tact... I'm sure.  The other half is finding the right words.  Words...! Not so sure if I can manage that.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 24, 2014, 02:12:01 AM
Domination, yes, but that's not really the same as not being the guy.

True, if you go implying "domination = male" and vice versa, then you're just getting stuck in perpetuating the gender role assumptions that are causing you trouble in the first place.

Quote from: JamesG on April 23, 2014, 10:40:29 PM
I always found the most fun part of sex was considering the experience of the other. If they enjoyed it and "got off". In that I think I have a more female perspective on sex.

Like here - is caring about the other person intrinsically "a female perspective"?  If you divide all activities and attitudes up by gender then you may forever be tripping up over yourself trying to enact the "right" gender.  If I don't care about the other person's pleasure, does that make me less "female", or just less "feminine", or does it just make me a selfish twat?  Fairly basic questions of gender I know, but it does strike me as odd when people transgress gender while at the same time suggesting they think all sorts of qualities are inherently male or female - maybe it's a more useful perspective for some people than others, or maybe I'm just quibbling over your loose phrasing, I don't know.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 24, 2014, 02:12:01 AM
Is there really any answer to my problem?

How about:

Quote from: HorizonBound on April 22, 2014, 10:54:29 PM
If you want something uncommon, the best thing to do is put it right out front on a billboard.

?

Quote from: HorizonBound on April 24, 2014, 02:58:19 PM
I talked with my current partner about this an awful lot. We had to identify the scripts and assumptions we were operating by and consciously set them aside. We talked a lot about how we really felt about the sex we were having, what worked and what didn't work. We ended up having a huge overlap with what we both wanted and what worked. You can't force compatibility if it ain't there, but you can totally mess up what could be awesome sex with trying to do sex "the right way" or "successfully" or "like I'm supposed to."


Good thinking.  Talking about what "scripts" one's operating by might be a good way to bring up stuff about the way you're enacting gender too, without opening by plunging in cold with some sort of variant of the sentiment of "argh! gender!" and taking the other person off-guard.
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JamesG

Quote from: Pip on April 24, 2014, 04:54:30 PMI'm game enough to take it in my stride if he does decide I'm not his thing: as you say, if he's not interested, then he's not interested in me, which there isn't much point in wasting my time with.

Whoah there...  Just because he's not interested in exploring alternate sexual roles does not mean he's not interested in a relationship with you or that he isn't willing to compromise at some point.  Plus compromise is a two-way street.



QuoteLike here - is caring about the other person intrinsically "a female perspective"?

In my experience as a man and having been immersed in male culture my whole life, and intimately known many women cis and trans, yes. 
Most men and masculine culture in general (as a broad view) really doesn't care about anything but themselves and it is about their own sexual gratification.  Where as women... put up with it to a degree that they are usually more concerned with the bigger picture (the relationship, gain, etc.), but it's often because they have a much higher level of empathy.

Of course all this is based upon the commonly established gender framework that the larger culture has established. I am just acknowledging and referencing it. Most people can't even do that.  It's just "The way things are."  The people here since we are outside of gender norms can see it all and observe. But it's still there.
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VeronicaLynn

Quote from: Pip on April 24, 2014, 04:54:30 PM
True, if you go implying "domination = male" and vice versa, then you're just getting stuck in perpetuating the gender role assumptions that are causing you trouble in the first place.
Domination/Submission roles are often even more rigidly binary than gender roles. I don't really need another binary role to deal with in my life.

Really, most women I have been with have been somewhat androgynous themselves. It may just have to be that way, that someone that is close to fitting the stereotype of either binary is just not the best choice of person for an androgynous person to be with.
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Pip

Quote from: JamesG on April 24, 2014, 07:40:57 PM
Whoah there...  Just because he's not interested in exploring alternate sexual roles does not mean he's not interested in a relationship with you or that he isn't willing to compromise at some point.  Plus compromise is a two-way street.

Ack, that's not what I meant to mean.  I meant it as more of a tautology - "if he's not interested in me, he's not interested in me": to put it another way - if he is irreparably put off me if I reveal how I feel (about sexual roles and so on), then it's clearly not going to work out - not that if he's not willing to adopt X, Y and Z sexual behaviours then he's not interested in me.
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JamesG

You'll never know until you try and broach the subject.  He might go for it, or he might not.  It might turn him completely off on you (probably not if he was attracted to your androgynous tom-boy appearance), or he may just set boundaries and you'll have to save your thoughts as fantasies.

BTW- Oral sex and "dry humping" are the great equalizers.  ;)
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