The woes of passing well

[Berliegh]

im not trying to spoil anything but trying to relate to the topic,

my experience of other transexuals and GIC clinics, is that there are lots of people that claim that they pass well, or that they have female this or that. I think they live in dream world, and normally have little or, no real life experience. When i say real life experience i mean standing up and talking in front of groups of people who do not know you, or applying for a job as a woman and passing in that interview as a woman.

Conversly, Going into a bar, and being called a woman is bloody easy. Its because nobody is paying you any attention. Walking through town is easy. Nobody looks at you and if they do, they're not going to call you a man anyway, why would they care?

I've met people who claim that they pass 100% and look like women, when in reality they look like men with awful dress sense. Whenever i go into the GIC clinics, i see what is essentially a group of men in dresses. Some look more male than others, but all look male. I've yet to meet a genuinely passable transexual in a GIC clinic. I've probably met over 100 in my time.

In fact the last time i went in, there was a genetic woman sitting next to me who whispered to her husband 'the're all men aren't they!'.

i've been 'hit on' by men on several occasions. I don't assume that this means i pass as a woman, just that on certain occasions, people may confuse me for a woman, based on my hairstyle and clothes. It always makes me scared of opening my mouth. My pass rate drops from nearly 100% to nearly 0% when i open my mouth.

As a teacher I've stood up in front of classes and been addressed as he, or him by half the class and she and her by the other half. Everytime i get called he or him, its like a knife sticking in my back, but i can't escape the way i am. I don't think i do badly for a transexual, in fact, quite the opposite, so i view with lots of suspicion when i see people saying that they pass so well.

Transitioning is not perfect. You can put on a skirt, and they'll call you a woman, but think you're a man. You can put on androgenous clothes and they'll call you a man but wonder if your a woman.

my experience is that women tend to accept me alot more than men. Non-white males are normally easier to convince than white males. The most difficult group to convince is younger white males aged 25-40. I suspect its because they are the ones who are looking most intensely for a prospective mate.

I think alot of transexuals hide from their true selves and take pictures of themselves where they may be called female, although the truth from what i've seen is that they always look like men in real life. I accept there may be exceptions, but i don't think they are the norm, or the rule. I think its counterproductive for the transexual community to assume most pass, when in fact 99.9% do not.

Its such a difficult change from one sex to another, and i think living in denial about your strengths and weaknesses is the most difficult thing of all. I wake up one day and see a pretty woman, and the next day i see a hideous freak. Nothing changed over night, its just my perception of myself on different days.

As usual Danielle, you put things accross very well and your observations are very accurate. I have met one passable transsexual at a U.K NHS gender clinic but unfortunitely it is quite rare. The majority do look like men in female clothes, and they wear the type of female clothes from a passed era which don't resemble any genetic female in the street. They usually pile on the make up, with beards showing and wear black skirt suits and bright pink nail varnish....it is a standard stereotype and I did wonder what relation this had to my own situation which is why I quit going to gender clinics......The U.K NHS gender clinic system is not a great example for transsexuals.   

If you work in an invironment where you have to wear a boiler suit and you pass as a female, you've got more going for you.......employment and full intergration is possibly the make or break point as to your transition.

[danielle_l]

If less enphasis is based on GRS and more on intergration, the better...

kim, i do agree with you, my whole time at the GIC clinic is based on 40 minute sessions trying to guess the correct thing to say to make sure they sign my GRS form in 1 1/2 years time. They serve no purpose in terms of helping me with my transition.

GICs should help you integrate as a woman, improve your appearance and make you feel more confident in yourself as well as preparing you for GRS surgery. As they are they are a bunch of pretty ignorant non-transexual 'psychiatrists' who ask you stupid questions and then twist your answers to suit whatever agenda they have. You've always said that its no coincidence that the GIC service goes under as part of the mental health service, as if we were mentally ill. Its a total waste of time and tax payers money.

the whole thing is a contradiction. How can you ever let somebody in to your most intimate fears, who has the power to destroy your life (by not allowing GRS)? Its like confiding in hitler that you are really a jew..

thank god there is a private option thanks to people like russell reid etc, so at least they don't have all the power.

[Berliegh]

kim, i do agree with you, my whole time at the GIC clinic is based on 40 minute sessions trying to guess the correct thing to say to make sure they sign my GRS form in 1 1/2 years time. They serve no purpose in terms of helping me with my transition.

GICs should help you integrate as a woman, improve your appearance and make you feel more confident in yourself, but as they are they are a bunch of pretty ignorant non-transexual 'psychiatrists' who ask you stupid questions and then twist your answers to suit whatever agenda they have. Its a total waste of time and tax payers money.

the whole thing is a contradiction. How can you ever let somebody in to your most intimate fears, who has the power to destroy your life (by not allowing GRS)? Its like confiding in hitler that you are really a jew..

thank god there is a private option thanks to people like russell reid etc, so at least they don't have all the power.

I think you are hoping a bit with a 1 1/2 year time scale with your GIC. My real life test was approaching it's 6th year but the London NHS GIC still refused my GRS referral. I asked them for an explanation or reason but they refused to give one....I complied with the HBSOC but they didn't, so where's the justification in that?

I've moved on since then and have found that my quality of life has now improved and so has my transition position.  It's a shame these UK NHS clinics are not set up for the benefit of the patients......the politics of how much money can be accessed from outside PCT's by stalling patients is more important to them...

[gothique11]

im not trying to spoil anything but trying to relate to the topic,

my experience of other transexuals and GIC clinics, is that there are lots of people that claim that they pass well, or that they have female this or that. I think they live in dream world, and normally have little or, no real life experience. When i say real life experience i mean standing up and talking in front of groups of people who do not know you, or applying for a job as a woman and passing in that interview as a woman.

Conversly, Going into a bar, and being called a woman is bloody easy. Its because nobody is paying you any attention. Walking through town is easy. Nobody looks at you and if they do, they're not going to call you a man anyway, why would they care?

I've met people who claim that they pass 100% and look like women, when in reality they look like men with awful dress sense. Whenever i go into the GIC clinics, i see what is essentially a group of men in dresses. Some look more male than others, but all look male. I've yet to meet a genuinely passable transexual in a GIC clinic. I've probably met over 100 in my time.

In fact the last time i went in, there was a genetic woman sitting next to me who whispered to her husband 'the're all men aren't they!'.

i've been 'hit on' by men on several occasions. I don't assume that this means i pass as a woman, just that on certain occasions, people may confuse me for a woman, based on my hairstyle and clothes. It always makes me scared of opening my mouth. My pass rate drops from nearly 100% to nearly 0% when i open my mouth.

As a teacher I've stood up in front of classes and been addressed as he, or him by half the class and she and her by the other half. Everytime i get called he or him, its like a knife sticking in my back, but i can't escape the way i am. I don't think i do badly for a transexual, in fact, quite the opposite, so i view with lots of suspicion when i see people saying that they pass so well.

Transitioning is not perfect. You can put on a skirt, and they'll call you a woman, but think you're a man. You can put on androgenous clothes and they'll call you a man but wonder if your a woman.

my experience is that women tend to accept me alot more than men. Non-white males are normally easier to convince than white males. The most difficult group to convince is younger white males aged 25-40. I suspect its because they are the ones who are looking most intensely for a prospective mate.

I think alot of transexuals hide from their true selves and take pictures of themselves where they may be called female, although the truth from what i've seen is that they always look like men in real life. I accept there may be exceptions, but i don't think they are the norm, or the rule. I think its counterproductive for the transexual community to assume most pass, when in fact 99.9% do not.

Its such a difficult change from one sex to another, and i think living in denial about your strengths and weaknesses is the most difficult thing of all. I wake up one day and see a pretty woman, and the next day i see a hideous freak. Nothing changed over night, its just my perception of myself on different days.

As usual Danielle, you put things accross very well and your observations are very accurate. I have met one passable transsexual at a U.K NHS gender clinic but unfortunitely it is quite rare. The majority do look like men in female clothes, and they wear the type of female clothes from a passed era which don't resemble any genetic female in the street. They usually pile on the make up, with beards showing and wear black skirt suits and bright pink nail varnish....it is a standard stereotype and I did wonder what relation this had to my own situation which is why I quit going to gender clinics......The U.K NHS gender clinic system is not a great example for transsexuals.   

If you work in an invironment where you have to wear a boiler suit and you pass as a female, you've got more going for you.......employment and full intergration is possibly the make or break point as to your transition.

I'd have to agree with the both of you. It is something that I've seen over and over again. And so many trans women never socialize; I know so many that stay at home or if they do go out it's with other trans women. I don't get that. I bite my tongue so much when they are dressed horribly (when I've said something, I would hurt feelings and they'd cry "passing privilage" to me and that I don't understand them... and they are right, I don't.)

There are a lot of trans girls in this area (hey, our government covers SRS, so of course there are going to be a lot here). I know of a couple people that integrate very well -- not just talking looks, but the way the socialize and behave. Going stealth is very common for these girls, and I'd have to say I'm on that stealthy edge, but I haven't stepped over 100% because I'm still involved with helping other Trans people in my community. I live a very dual life right now.

I don't expect people on the web to think anything of me; yes, they can look at my pictures and then my profile and check out my video log on  youtube, but it isn't the same as interacting with me. I know a lot of trans people that say they pass, and blah, blah, blah -- those people live in my city, and I'm sad to say that they don't. Do I? Apparently, but I'm not self-delusional in that I'm perfect.

Yes, I socialize way outside of the GLBT community. Yes, the 96 friends in my face book are people I know and talk to regularly -- and yes, not all of them know I'm trans! (And yes, I have more than 96 friends, I keep bugging certain friends to join in the band wagon.) Yes, I go to the clubs (and it's not the gay club). Yes, I've had three jobs since I was full-time and I've applied and I've been hired as a female for each one. And yes, I've made out with very cute straight men on many occasions (and yes, I'm trying to stop doing that because I'm playing with my life here). And yes, in the last 2 months I've slept with two straight men (something I should also stop, it's even more dangerous and explaining what is between my legs isn't easy; it feels a lot like the crying game).

And is all the above true? Of course it is. But nobody in here can verify it unless they actually know me in person. So, what's the difference between me saying all of this and another person who doesn't do any of this saying all of it? The difference is that you'll never know for sure unless you actually know them. It's hard to take what is said on the net as fact. And I don't expect people will take what I say as fact.

I know of people who think that they are "all that and more" and brag on the net about how well they pass, and blah, blah, blah -- meanwhile in real life they are lonely people who hide in their apartment dressed in granny clothes they found at the thrift store.

One thing I can say for them -- at least people know off the bat and there is a degree of safety. For me it's the constant fear of being discovered by the wrong person. That one guy who tells the other guy and I'm killed. I have a lot of scared friends right now. Four months into being full-time I guy tried to rape me oust side of where I worked.. you have no idea how hard I tried to push this guy off me, because if he would have found out what was down there I could have been dead.

At least if you look like a man in a dress, you don't have to worry about getting raped as much like every other woman out there. Being a woman isn't all rainbows and butterflies, it has a very dark side to it. And when you're a t girl like me with that so called "passing privilege" the danger is much higher. What if I kissed the wrong man and he found out later? What if I brought the wrong boy home and upon finding out kills me or beats me up? What if I get raped and the rapist discovers down there isn't as expected? What if I'm outed at work and someone hates me enough to kill me because I was "tricking" everyone? At least, if you look like a man in a dress no one thinks you're fooling anyone but yourself, but people don't like to be fooled -- it just takes those couple of people who believe you "tricked" them enough for them to harm you...

Not passing 100% can have more of a benefit than you think; and passing 100% can have more of a downside then you think. Being a girl isn't what a lot of trans people think it is.



Posted on: September 11, 2007, 12:47:50 PMSorry for sounding so emo -- there's a lot of good things about being a woman and I wouldn't change who I am.

[debisl]

You know the human brain is a wonderful thing. I beleive it is always evolving to its surroundings.

While I do feel it is very important to pass, I don't beleive in percentages. If you are only 50% passable, and you are happy with your looks who cares. If you truly have the peace of mind your brain requires then that is a step forward. The brain is so complex, yet so impressionable.

How many of you have visioned yourself as pretty at times. I think most!!! Weather you are or not most people do see some good things they like about themselves.

There are ugly GG's and there are beautiful GG's. They to have the exact feelings that any TS might have about their looks. How many not so pretty GG's went to your prom?? They too sit at home in solitude and wonder WHY!!!

You are who you are. The secret of life is one thing!!!!! That is what you have to figure out. The one thing that makes you happy and go on with your life.

Let me add this little bit. Why do you think GG's go to plastic surgeons??? Well why!
The exact same reason that a TS might want to go. If you have the bucks you too can look as faboulous as all of those Hollywood stars out there. They are not beauties without their makup. Hell they don't even put it on themselves.

Don't be quite so hard on yourself. Nothing in this world is certain except for death. If you want something bad enough!! Trust me you will find a way. If you can think it, you can do it.

One thing for sure we are all beautiful in GODS eyes, and he is the best judge I know of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will be having my surgery soon, and will that make me a passable woman??? Only to those who see me undressed. I will still be the same on the inside. That is what counts. I will still be my sweet self, that would not hurt anyones feelings for anything in the world. We all have to find our way, and hopefully there will be some happiness along the road.

Just my take on things, and I hope I did not bore you

Deb

[danielle_l]

hey, i didnt mean offence to anyone in particular, so accept my apologies.

Based on some really good replies though it was well worth saying what i said. Im a bit of a realist and i think sometimes its so important that we really get down to the nitty gritty ->-bleeped-<- of what it is being transexual.

[debisl]

No offence taken with me, but we do need to help build morale here.

I may be called transsexual technicaly, but I can assure you I am a woman. Just to be perfectly clear I was a young girl before that. I can't speak for anyone else here so I will not. There are many of us with a very clear direction of what we are, and where in life we fit and, stand.

I for one want to try to help anyone here feel better about themselves. I wish that no one has to go through what I went through. Times have changed a little and the prospects for a more complete life are at reach for most. Remember all you have to do is want it bad enough to see the changes you desire. It is not easy, but with some moral support from others that have been there and done that maybe it will make it a little easier.

Deb

[Berliegh]

I know Danielle (Fruity) was speaking from a U.K point of view and the poor victorian value's of U.K Gender Clinics (which doesn't really relate to people in the U.S) but she pulled up some important issue's.....

There is a lot of closeted stuff going on and you do get a lot of Transexuals going to specialised venue's for transsexuals instead of a secular bar/ pub. Once a F to M transsexual invited me to a transsexual workshop for musicians.....the person seemed quite offended when I said I don't go to anything relating to Transsexual events etc......I just go to normal places and live a normal life...

[Suzy]

I for one want to try to help anyone here feel better about themselves. I wish that no one has to go through what I went through. Times have changed a little and the prospects for a more complete life are at reach for most. Remember all you have to do is want it bad enough to see the changes you desire. It is not easy, but with some moral support from others that have been there and done that maybe it will make it a little easier.
Deb

Thanks so much, Deb.  I couldn't agree more.  I hope people can take to heart that we all need support sometimes, and that we can make it easier for each other.

the person seemed quite offended when I said I don't go to anything relating to Transsexual events etc......I just go to normal places and live a normal life...

I guess this is something I don't understand either.  A friend has invited me out to a big trans club this weekend.  I've never done that and have little interest in it.  I keep trying to explain that I just want to do normal things women do.  While I make no judgments, I have no desire for flag waving or big trans pep rallies.  I just want to be me.  I'll never be one who claims to pass 100%, but I am gaining confidence to go and do whatever I want to.

Kristi

[danielle_l]

I wasn't offended, so no apologies required. I just want you to know that it's YOUR nitty gritty, not everyone else's nitty gritty.

you seem pretty offended, judging by your responce. I don't speak for everyone else, but then, neither do you.

[candifla]

some people... jeez...

if a trans is passable, then you're not going to know it because they ARE passable. What, is she/he suddenly going to run up to you, tap you on the shoulder and say "hey, you didn't read me.. but guess what? i'm a trans too. fooled you!"

so if you can't spot that 0.1%, or whatever rate you claim, it's because they pass.

Two, if you're in a group/clinic bemoaning the appearance of all those wig-wearin', lipstick smearin' men in dresses, well, perhaps they and YOU are there for a reason, such as, getting help. Passable people aren't going to be there are they? they'll be out and about passing under your 99.9% infallible transdar.

finally, take no offense, i'm not attacking the person, but the opinion extolled as fact.

unless you grab their crotch (prior to their grs), you'll never really know if a person is trans or they have hormonal imbalance. either way, it doesn't matter, because you or me are going to read into their appearance from our own prejudices.

[Berliegh]

Two, if you're in a group/clinic bemoaning the appearance of all those wig-wearin', lipstick smearin' men in dresses, well, perhaps they and YOU are there for a reason, such as, getting help. Passable people aren't going to be there are they? they'll be out and about passing under your 99.9% infallible transdar.

I agree.........but unfortunitely those NHS Gender Clinics are where they send people suffering from Gender Dysphoria in the U.K.......you don't know what it's like until you get there.......They are (of course) more transvestite based and best avoided if you are serious about transitioning...

[Rachael]

send you to? its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to!
R

[Berliegh]

send you to? its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to!
R

How do you mean its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to? GP's are usually not very well versed in Gender Dysphoria, I was the first case my GP had ever met.....in the U.K if you live near London your GP / PCT send you there as the first port of call.......these days the tide is gradually turning and PCT's are now aware of Charing Cross's unhealthy reputation and channeling patients elsewhere...

Danielle (Fruity) was speaking from her experiences of the U.K NHS GIC system which obviously wouldn't relate to the majority American's on this forum..

[Rachael]

after my gp refered me, ive had 2 letters from porterbrook, and not heard since....
R

[Berliegh]

after my gp refered me, ive had 2 letters from porterbrook, and not heard since....
R

porterbrook, Where's that?

[danielle_l]

I agree.........but unfortunitely those NHS Gender Clinics are where they send people suffering from Gender Dysphoria in the U.K.......you don't know what it's like until you get there.......They are (of course) more transvestite based and best avoided if you are serious about transitioning...

kim, while i agree with you about the GIC's, without going to them, how are you supposed to get an approval signature for GRS? thats the only reason i go, i hate that place, and would avoid it if it were possible.

Initially, my GP wouldn't prescribe me HRT until i got approval from the GIC. When it eventually came, i'd already been on hrt for 2 years privately and buying them over the counter in foriegn countries.

Now i have to go in, listen to them arrogantly telling me how im suppose to be, as if they somehow knew what a transexual is, or how we feel.

My GIC routine is this: Smile, tell them what they want to hear, and then go home and pretend you never went there, until you have to go again in 4 months. The only time i've ever had doubts about transitioning is when i went to those centres. Not because i doubted who i was, but because they made me doubt i had the strength to do something about it.

but the problem is, where else can you get approval for GRS??

i heard of the porterbrook centre don't know much about it though. If you want to get treatment you have to annoy them until they give you it rachael. If you just disapear, they wipe you of the list and forget about you. I think they have quotas of how many people they can treat at any point in time, relating to budget funds etc.

If you show them any kind of ambiguity (spelling?), they will just get rid of you. Its a game, and you have to play it, otherwise you will end up with no help.

and when i say help, i mean signatures and letters enabling you to transition. They serve no purpose at all in terms of emotional support, or giving you the tools to make yourself look more feminine.

Posted on: September 18, 2007, 04:10:42 AMif i do 10 posts can i now use messages ? what a stupid forum

[debisl]

If we are still on the subject of passing, I would like for all of you to look at this site below. It only fortifies what I have been trying to tell some of you about looks and passing.

There are no ugly women.

http://boortz.com/more/there_are_no_ugly_women.html

[Berliegh]

My GIC routine is this: Smile, tell them what they want to hear, and then go home and pretend you never went there, until you have to go again in 4 months. The only time i've ever had doubts about transitioning is when i went to those centres. Not because i doubted who i was, but because they made me doubt i had the strength to do something about it.

I did that for nearly 7 years Danielle and it didn't get me anywhere........

but the problem is, where else can you get approval for GRS??

and when i say help, i mean signatures and letters enabling you to transition. They serve no purpose at all in terms of emotional support, or giving you the tools to make yourself look more feminine.

I've done almost 5 years RLT but when I asked the London GIC for a referal for GRS they asked me to leave the clinic.....and not come back? they didn't like the idea that I wanted a physical transition i.e (GRS, ffs etc ) and not psychological mental therapy......strangley in the letter they also said I had fullfilled all the protocols in the HBSOC.....


I'll post the actual letter I got from them....it might shock a few people who are starting out and want to go through the U.K NHS system..

[louise000]

I've done almost 5 years RLT but when I asked the London GIC for a referal for GRS they asked me to leave the clinic.....and not come back? they didn't like the idea that I wanted a physical transition i.e (GRS, ffs etc ) and not psychological mental therapy......strangley in the letter they also said I had fullfilled all the protocols in the HBSOC.....


I'll post the actual letter I got from them....it might shock a few people who are starting out and want to go through the U.K NHS system..

Hi Kimberley, I'm aware we are way off topic now, however I believe you said before you are going down the private route, I just wanted to ask you how one gets started on that ladder? PM me if you prefer. Louise x