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Post op regret and detransition - informed consent and psychotherapy

Started by Cindy, June 14, 2014, 02:52:15 AM

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helen2010

Quote from: RoxanneN on June 15, 2014, 07:58:53 PM
Yes I am a regretter but in favor of informed consent. I guess just make sure it is informed and that more emphasis is put on a. transition is not all or nothing and b. question and discussion why each individual procedure is desired and what are the potential outcomes. Ie why do you want SRS/HRT/FFS/beard removal/social transition... have you considered not doing it and doing ___? Do you have to have it now or can you wait? What if you don't like the results or you have complications? And so on.

Agree.  While I am not a regretter I didn't end up where I expected.  My psychiatrist, my endo and my counsellors acted more as coaches - asking questions and providing information and advice and responding to my questions and concerns in an empathetic  but professional manner.

I started transitioning - completed FFS,  pretty much have cleared my face and have been on hrt for a couple of years - However I dialled the hrt back, when I became uncomfortable with the speed of change, and then had a breast reduction (they have since regrown) which allowed me the time I needed to understand that I was non binary and that being A was in fact the best outcome for me. 

I suspect that if I had taken the normal journey and fully transitioned that my transition would have been less successful than it has been.  The profession has therefore been enormously valuable to me and I certainly support informed consent IF the experts determine that the patient is dysphoric, is tg, does not suffer from any other underlying conditions and that the patient really does understand what they are consenting and committing to.

Aisla
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TaoRaven

Any man of legal age could walk into a body modification studio, have his penis split in half and then linked together with steel hoops....have his face tattooed with the image of his choosing and then be suspended from the ceiling by hooks through his skin. All he would need to do is sign a waver, and pay.
A woman can walk into a cosmetic surgery practice and have her breasts enlarged to the point where she can barely stand up straight, and her lips pumped with so much collagen that they look like car tires. Again....money and a signature.
But...because I am trans, I am not capable of making decisions about my own body? Why the double standard?
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helen2010

Quote from: TaoRaven on June 15, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
Any man of legal age could walk into a body modification studio, have his penis split in half and then linked together with steel hoops....have his face tattooed with the image of his choosing and then be suspended from the ceiling by hooks through his skin. All he would need to do is sign a waver, and pay.
A woman can walk into a cosmetic surgery practice and have her breasts enlarged to the point where she can barely stand up straight, and her lips pumped with so much collagen that they look like car tires. Again....money and a signature.
But...because I am trans, I am not capable of making decisions about my own body? Why the double standard?


TaoRaven

Good point.  My post reflected my experience and what I found worked best for me ... so maybe different strokes for different folks makes sense.  If it is our body and we are healthy and capable of making our own decisions then perhaps that is indeed enough.

Aisla
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katiej

I agree with many here that having a team of professionals who act as specialized life-coaches is perhaps the best way to help us work through the peripheral issues that may be clouding the central GD issues.

There is a man who gives talks in Christian churches against all issues LGBT.  He detransitioned in the 1970's just before having SRS.  He had a long list of issues -- sexual abuse, alcohol and drug addiction, severe depression, among others.  He said he came to the conclusion that he was having such a rough time as a gay man that he'd probably be better off as a woman.  So he transitioned. 

It's no surprise to me that he came to regret his decision.  He had a ton of baggage, and predictably none of it was resolved by transition.  He also had none of the early childhood experiences that most of us had.  And from all I've read and heard he doesn't seem to have had gender or body dysphoria either.  This guy could have used some gate keeping.

Informed consent alone would have done him a disservice.  He's the exact kind of person that we don't want getting through the system.  He now travels all over the world warning people -- especially young people -- about the sinfulness of being transgender.  The problem is that I actually doubt he actually ever was transgender.  But he's regarded by these churches as an expert because of his experience.

I'm all for letting adults be adults.  But we as a group are also fighting public misperceptions, and involving trained professionals (not gate keeping) can only serve to help us and our cause.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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katiej

I could be wrong, but my impression is that gate keeping happens most often in countries with socialized healthcare systems that will pay for transition after a long, if not archaic process.  But these are the same countries that also have gate keeping for normal procedures as well.  No?

Hospitals in the northern part of the US have a lot of "medical tourists" from Canada.  They come across the border for the quick access to the medical care they would otherwise have had to wait months or years to get for "free" in Canada.

"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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helen2010

Quote from: katiej on June 16, 2014, 12:51:24 AM
I could be wrong, but my impression is that gate keeping happens most often in countries with socialized healthcare systems that will pay for transition after a long, if not archaic process.  But these are the same countries that also have gate keeping for normal procedures as well.  No?

Hospitals in the northern part of the US have a lot of "medical tourists" from Canada.  They come across the border for the quick access to the medical care they would otherwise have had to wait months or years to get for "free" in Canada.

katiej

You may be right in some situations but in Australia we have both socialised and private healthcare and gatekeeping is nowhere near that which appears to be the case with the NHS in the UK .  In the UK I understand that there is also a quick, but more expensive private option.

Aisla
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Declan.

Quote from: katiej on June 16, 2014, 12:47:19 AM
Informed consent alone would have done him a disservice.  He's the exact kind of person that we don't want getting through the system.  He now travels all over the world warning people -- especially young people -- about the sinfulness of being transgender.  The problem is that I actually doubt he actually ever was transgender.  But he's regarded by these churches as an expert because of his experience.

I'm all for letting adults be adults.  But we as a group are also fighting public misperceptions, and involving trained professionals (not gate keeping) can only serve to help us and our cause.

This is a good point that I'm glad was brought up. It's something that worries me. My family is still not supportive - and likely never will be - due in part to stories like his.
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E-Brennan

It's worth remembering the huge selection bias (?) when looking at these issues.

Many successful transitioners disappear once finished.  They won't come here and tell us how great things worked out.  They won't be out and proud in society as trans.  They aren't showing up in the statistics, and are essentially invisible.

But many of the people who, for whatever reason, didn't succeed at transitioning are rather vocal about their experiences.  They can't always melt back into society, they sometimes stick out, a few might have some significant resentment at the system they think has let them down and cost them years of their lives, broken relationships, false promises and debt, and they want to tell the world about it.

The negative voices are far louder than they should be because the positive voices don't speak up.  By looking at this site and the internet as a whole, one would be forgiven for thinking that transition often leads to regret and problems (and life as a sex worker), whereas the reality is transition rarely leads to regret (or sex work).  It's all too easy to get sucked down the whirlpool of negativity.

Which brings us round to the point others have made about gatekeeping: there are two types, one negative (therapist wants more money, therapist likes wielding power, therapist is an idiot etc.), but one positive too (therapist genuinely wants to protect his or her patients because he or she mistakenly believes that lots of transitioners end up regretting their decisions.)  But it's still gatekeeping, and an overly-protective therapist who is holding back a client based upon distorted perceptions of the likelihood of "failure" is still damaging to the client's wellbeing.  While I think we need to separate the two and not throw out the good therapists with the bad, one thing is for certain - there's a huge need for programs to educate therapists in the realities of gender disorders.

We also can't push responsibility away from ourselves.  This is, ultimately, our own decision.  IC, gatekeeping, whatever.  We're the ones taking the pills and going under the knife.  Nobody ever forces us to do those things, so the buck stops with us.  What amazes me though is the fact that biologically, transition is always a slow process.  Hormones don't work overnight.  There is so much time for reflection, self-examination, figuring out whether this is the right path for us to take.  Regret will not just appear overnight - it'll creep in slowly and most people will see it a mile away and be able to take steps to avoid it (stopping HRT being the obvious choice.)  Post-op regret is surely such a small statistic because very few people will have lived in a bubble and really have had no idea that they were going too far by that point in their transitions.  When one goes under the knife, it's usually been preceded by a long course of HRT, living full-time in the chosen gender, etc.  There really shouldn't be many surprises left.

The regret problem could be solved by slowing the process down and making it more collaborative.  Hormones do that already, kinda.  The regret seems to arise from people either rushing through the process, or being stubborn and refusing to listen to outside voices who might be telling them things they don't want to hear.  I don't see much regret from anyone who takes transition one step at a time and in the care of suitable medical professionals.  That's not to say that such care is required by everyone transitioning (and there are some successful DIY transitioners or those who skip certain steps because they've researched their options carefully) - I'm only suggesting that if the goal is to minimize regret, then the standards for care already set out aren't particularly bad.
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Beverly

Quote from: __________ on June 16, 2014, 07:45:53 AM
The negative voices are far louder than they should be because the positive voices don't speak up.  By looking at this site and the internet as a whole, one would be forgiven for thinking that transition often leads to regret and problems (and life as a sex worker), whereas the reality is transition rarely leads to regret (or sex work).  It's all too easy to get sucked down the whirlpool of negativity.

That is why I largely avoid this place and make it difficult for myself to post here. If I stay too long the sheer quantity of negativity that is here gets to me. In recent times, I feel that Susans has got worse and worse. At one point I even asked them to block my IP (I have a static one) to stop me coming back because I get sucked in by wanting to help one person, then another and then it spirals out of control.


Quote from: __________ on June 16, 2014, 07:45:53 AMWe also can't push responsibility away from ourselves.  This is, ultimately, our own decision.  IC, gatekeeping, whatever.  We're the ones taking the pills and going under the knife.  Nobody ever forces us to do those things, so the buck stops with us.  What amazes me though is the fact that biologically, transition is always a slow process.  Hormones don't work overnight.  There is so much time for reflection, self-examination, figuring out whether this is the right path for us to take.

^^^^ This

Not a popular message around here though....
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ErinS

Dash, you're absolutely correct and the adverse selection of trans people is one thing I have been pointing out to my friends. The entire point is to pass unnoticed as a different gender than from birth, so by definition the ones people notice first are the trans people that aren't successful at it, and due to trans stigma the ones that can pass have a huge incentive to disappear. 

The problem with any filtering "standards of care" is if it gets too loose people who have no business transitioning will try it, too tight and authentic trans people are denied and put through unnecessary pain. It's a fine line to walk.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: ErinS on June 16, 2014, 08:26:20 AM
The problem with any filtering "standards of care" is if it gets too loose people who have no business transitioning will try it, too tight and authentic trans people are denied and put through unnecessary pain.

Isn't transitioning a legal right?

Who is to say who has any business transitioning and who doesn't?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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ErinS

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 16, 2014, 08:45:06 AM
Isn't transitioning a legal right?

Who is to say who has any business transitioning and who doesn't?

I think the example katiej spoke of is someone that probably didn't have any business transitioning, and would have benefitted from a little objective guidance.

Personally I'd like to remove all safety warnings, leave bins full of sharp and pointy objects on streetcorners and let Darwin work things out, alas I'm not Empress of the planet and others might not approve of my methods.

There's a difference between preventing someone from doing something, and letting them go ahead while pointing out they're being stupid. It's not my little red wagon to pull and as long as you keep it out of my yard I'm happy.
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Roxanne

Quote from: __________ on June 16, 2014, 07:45:53 AM
We also can't push responsibility away from ourselves.  This is, ultimately, our own decision.  IC, gatekeeping, whatever.  We're the ones taking the pills and going under the knife.  Nobody ever forces us to do those things, so the buck stops with us.  What amazes me though is the fact that biologically, transition is always a slow process.  Hormones don't work overnight.  There is so much time for reflection, self-examination, figuring out whether this is the right path for us to take.  Regret will not just appear overnight - it'll creep in slowly and most people will see it a mile away and be able to take steps to avoid it (stopping HRT being the obvious choice.)  Post-op regret is surely such a small statistic because very few people will have lived in a bubble and really have had no idea that they were going too far by that point in their transitions.  When one goes under the knife, it's usually been preceded by a long course of HRT, living full-time in the chosen gender, etc.  There really shouldn't be many surprises left.

The regret problem could be solved by slowing the process down and making it more collaborative.  Hormones do that already, kinda.  The regret seems to arise from people either rushing through the process, or being stubborn and refusing to listen to outside voices who might be telling them things they don't want to hear.  I don't see much regret from anyone who takes transition one step at a time and in the care of suitable medical professionals.  That's not to say that such care is required by everyone transitioning (and there are some successful DIY transitioners or those who skip certain steps because they've researched their options carefully) - I'm only suggesting that if the goal is to minimize regret, then the standards for care already set out aren't particularly bad.

I honestly still fail to see what RLT has to do with SRS other than to put an artificial brake on rushing under the knife. Maybe it stops some people who otherwise shouldn't, but on the other hand maybe it leads to severe psychological damage to others who have had to put up with enough brown stuff in their lives and are about to break anyway. Regardless, who is to say that those who can pass/go stealth need SRS and those who can't or won't for whatever reason (established career, kids, etc) doesn't need SRS?

Again I will post that I live and work as a woman. In terms of finance I have been quite successful - I transitioned young and got a job where I am stealth as a woman and earn well above average income. I do admit there is privilege and luck here - not going to play it off as solely on my own merit. My social life could use a boost but ehhh... I have a wife (also trans) and her and my family are all supportive so could be worse too. That said I regret SRS. Bad. And I took my transition relatively slow. I was on HRT for almost 4 years before SRS. Still wanting to get a phalloplasty, it has been utterly crushing having 1 fail due to complications and the other aborted due to risk of the same complications (it was taken from the contralateral side where surprise surprise I have mirror anatomy). I am just desperately hoping for attempt #3 to be done very very soon. I need to contact one of the surgeons because they are overdue for informing me of a new date. It's a cancer that is killing my psychological health.
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Beverly

I think these last few entries show the difference between the USA and many other places. In the US there seems to be an attitude of "No one should stop anyone from doing anything and they if make the wrong choices then too *#!@~# bad".

On that basis.... post-op regret. Their fault. Moaners.....

Whatever happened to empathy?

[Edit: RoxanneN slipped a post in while I was typing mine]
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E-Brennan

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 16, 2014, 08:45:06 AM
Isn't transitioning a legal right?

Who is to say who has any business transitioning and who doesn't?

I don't think it is a legal right.  Not in the sense that we have a legal right, under all circumstances, to obtain whatever controlled substances we desire or force medical professionals to operate on us if we have enough cash to pay.  Perhaps in the sense that we are free to self-identify in whatever manner we choose, but without the consent (to some degree) of someone else who has the keys to the candy store and the knife drawer, we're pretty much powerless.  Nobody can (nor should) transition in a vacuum - that's how mistakes are made.
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Roxanne

Quote from: __________ on June 16, 2014, 10:11:03 AM
I don't think it is a legal right.  Not in the sense that we have a legal right, under all circumstances, to obtain whatever controlled substances we desire or force medical professionals to operate on us if we have enough cash to pay.  Perhaps in the sense that we are free to self-identify in whatever manner we choose, but without the consent (to some degree) of someone else who has the keys to the candy store and the knife drawer, we're pretty much powerless.  Nobody can (nor should) transition in a vacuum - that's how mistakes are made.

Well, it's kind of silly that anything other than addictive drugs are illegal and even then one could make the argument that those should be legal too. That's a can of worms that I don't want to open up any further though, so I'll just bypass it and say that in most the Western World one can quite easily get HRT without a script. And in the US it's often actually cheaper to DIY even if you have insurance by the time you deal with copays and driving to the doctor.

The surgeon issue is a bit more complex. I must admit to having quite a bit of cognitive dissonance on this issue because I want to say it's foolish to force a surgeon to operate on someone no matter what as long as they come with cash or credit card in hand but on the other it's also foolish to deny a patient treatment because they can't find a surgeon willing to treat them or they have to travel out of the country to do so, etc...
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E-Brennan

Quote from: RoxanneN on June 16, 2014, 09:43:44 AMAgain I will post that I live and work as a woman. In terms of finance I have been quite successful - I transitioned young and got a job where I am stealth as a woman and earn well above average income. I do admit there is privilege and luck here - not going to play it off as solely on my own merit. My social life could use a boost but ehhh... I have a wife (also trans) and her and my family are all supportive so could be worse too. That said I regret SRS. Bad. And I took my transition relatively slow. I was on HRT for almost 4 years before SRS. Still wanting to get a phalloplasty, it has been utterly crushing having 1 fail due to complications and the other aborted due to risk of the same complications (it was taken from the contralateral side where surprise surprise I have mirror anatomy). I am just desperately hoping for attempt #3 to be done very very soon. I need to contact one of the surgeons because they are overdue for informing me of a new date. It's a cancer that is killing my psychological health.

I do feel where you're coming from, RoxanneN, but I don't think your outcome (slow transition, successfully stealth, now regretting SRS decision) is typical at all.  It seems highly unusual, in fact.  And in that sense, I think it's important to juxtapose it against the far higher number of transgirls who are extremely happy with similar outcomes.

I don't mean to diminish your story whatsoever - it is very important for us to hear it, and post-op regrets do exist no matter how long a time we spend weighing up the pros and cons beforehand.  Nobody has a crystal ball.  But just because so-called roadblocks didn't stop you making a mistake, it doesn't mean they are powerless to stop many other people from making the same mistake.

Again, I really do feel sorry that you've ended up somewhere you really didn't want to be.  If anything, your story is making a case for more roadblocks, not less.
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ErinS

Quote from: yvvrvt on June 16, 2014, 09:49:33 AM
I think these last few entries show the difference between the USA and many other places. In the US there seems to be an attitude of "No one should stop anyone from doing anything and they if make the wrong choices then too *#!@~# bad".

On that basis.... post-op regret. Their fault. Moaners.....

Whatever happened to empathy?

[Edit: RoxanneN slipped a post in while I was typing mine]

I have empathy. If anything, my coming to terms with the nature of myself has taught me compassion and made me a better person in almost all respects, even if my posts in this threads don't show it.

With that said, it has limits, and things derive their value partially from their scarcity. I have authentic compassion and empathy for people who make honest good faith mistakes and those trapped in circumstances beyond their control. If I have empathy for someone who is an adult and yet fails to do the slightest research or forethought on something that is probably the most important and pressing element of their life, then I insult those who actually deserve it.

A couple weeks ago I met a trans girl who was kicked out and disowned by her family, had a major and serious medical reaction to her orchi that destroyed her health, got fired for being trans and last I saw was being evicted and probably living on the streets right now. I have empathy for her. The person katiej talked about? The one making life harder for other trans people? Not so much.
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Shantel

Quote from: Aisla on June 15, 2014, 11:34:54 PM
Agree.  While I am not a regretter I didn't end up where I expected.  My psychiatrist, my endo and my counsellors acted more as coaches - asking questions and providing information and advice and responding to my questions and concerns in an empathetic  but professional manner.

I started transitioning - completed FFS,  pretty much have cleared my face and have been on hrt for a couple of years - However I dialled the hrt back, when I became uncomfortable with the speed of change, and then had a breast reduction (they have since regrown) which allowed me the time I needed to understand that I was non binary and that being A was in fact the best outcome for me. 

I suspect that if I had taken the normal journey and fully transitioned that my transition would have been less successful than it has been.  The profession has therefore been enormously valuable to me and I certainly support informed consent IF the experts determine that the patient is dysphoric, is tg, does not suffer from any other underlying conditions and that the patient really does understand what they are consenting and committing to.

Aisla

I agree with your personal decision to back off, I did the same and don't regret my decision because SRS and a full binary outcome is not the ultimate panacea for everyone. We may have taken the option to alter our trajectories somewhat and no doubt we will always be insulted by some who can't deal with our decisions, but then again they don't have to live in our skins.  :icon_ballbounce:
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Roxanne

Quote from: __________ on June 16, 2014, 10:25:33 AM
I do feel where you're coming from, RoxanneN, but I don't think your outcome (slow transition, successfully stealth, now regretting SRS decision) is typical at all.  It seems highly unusual, in fact.  And in that sense, I think it's important to juxtapose it against the far higher number of transgirls who are extremely happy with similar outcomes.

I don't mean to diminish your story whatsoever - it is very important for us to hear it, and post-op regrets do exist no matter how long a time we spend weighing up the pros and cons beforehand.  Nobody has a crystal ball.  But just because so-called roadblocks didn't stop you making a mistake, it doesn't mean they are powerless to stop many other people from making the same mistake.

Again, I really do feel sorry that you've ended up somewhere you really didn't want to be.  If anything, your story is making a case for more roadblocks, not less.

Oh I agree it's atypical. However regarding roadblocks I disagree: I'd say SMARTER roadblocks are more important than MORE or HARSHER roadblocks though. The RLT again seems to foster the belief of: you are able to adapt to living in your target gender? Ok you get a vagina (or penis for trans men) - but if you can't? Nope you get nothing, you lose, good day. More of a view on the patients wishes, making sure the patient is informed, and a neutral voice that asks questions I think is more more beneficial IMHO. Would it have stopped me? Maybe. Would MORE roadblocks would have stopped me? Most likely not, unless said roadblock was only getting 1 procedure done at a time. In any case too late for me now, I just want the problem fixed.
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