The Hormone Debate

[Melissa]

Females question everything.  Males just say come on let's get it done.

i'm already bad at math 

This is just my observation.  I find these kind of statements interesting coming from TS.  To be honest, these kind of statements are just generalizations and since every person is an individual, you *will* find exceptions to any rule.  In other words, there ARE going to be males who question everything and females that just say "Come on let's get it done."  You will find some females excellent at math (including myself, plus I knew quite a few growing up) and some males terrible at it.  Just because someone tends to fall into certain stereotypes does not alone make them male/female.

I know with HRT, the brain actually changes.  You can feel the changes taking place.  You know you start thinking differently the longer you are on it.  I honestly cannot choose a poll answer to this question, because I honestly am not sure of a good answer.  On one hand I have always identified as female and many of my thought processes fell into a line that was typically female.  But I also had thought processes that fell into a male line of thinking (i.e. I was direct, saw women sexually, tended to be more selfish, etc.).  This is one reason I took such an introspective look at myself when I was at the beginning of transition.  I found there's was also a lot of male thought processes I didn't posses (valuing genitals, instincts, adapting to the role of a pursuer, etc.)  The fact that I identified as female was what made all the difference. 

So, I took the leap and transitioned.  Since going fulltime, I have been SO much happier living as a woman.  I can function so much better once again with the dysphoria so diminished.  Getting rid of the male thought processes was largely a mental exercise to change how I thought--in fact, many changes came immediately just through self acceptance.  HRT had reshaped my thought processes as I've gone along.  I've had many people tell me they see my aura and the way I go about life largely as female (which is very encouraging).

I can use my memories of certain ways I thought to help me understand the male mind better.  I still question how strong those processes were as a male and how much I deluded myself about that.  Another aspect to consider is that the younger a person transitions and starts HRT, the more dramatic the physical changes are.  I believe the same thing happens with the brain.  Statistically, many older MTFs may still act largely male (which I personally believe is a combination of brain development and living in the role longer).  It still makes sense and as anyone who has been on HRT for a long time could attest to, the mental changes you go through are much more dramatic than the external changes and they are also more than you would ever imagine beforehand.

So, there is evidence to support both theories.  I would theorize that we begin with a brain structure closer to out target gender than a cisgender person, but not a completely developed brain of the target gender.  If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

[Nero]

If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

[Melissa]

If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

Nero, unless you have been on HRT, you would not understand.  I am not not referring to studies at all, but rather a consensus of observations of a number of TS people who have been on HRT long term.  As I said in my prior post:

...as anyone who has been on HRT for a long time could attest to, the mental changes you go through are much more dramatic than the external changes and they are also more than you would ever imagine beforehand.

Also, I DID describe how I thought.  I knew I was female and I knew that I didn't possess the impetus to behave like a typical male, yet I did have it to behave like a typical female.  If anything, I may have acted like a very feminine male, but a lot of it was both acting and trying to take advantage of expectations of my role.  Anybody who has been around on Susans the entire time I have, has seen me go through the HRT induced mental changes.  A change in sexuality is one example of the changes.  Anyhow, I get along much better with other women than I ever did with men.  Some mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

At least I'm being honest.  I bet most people (regardless of observational evidence) would not admit that they had any thoughts or behaviors of their birth gender.

[Nero]

If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

Nero, unless you have been on HRT, you would not understand.  I am not not referring to studies at all, but rather a consensus of observations of a number of TS people who have been on HRT long term.  As I said in my prior post:

Oh Ok. You're the expert here.
I've never taken HRT, but know women personally who have. A relative taking androgens for a medical condition, and a woman with a hormone disorder which causes HUGE amounts of testosterone to flood her system. Neither reported feeling any differently or acting any differently other than a huge increase in libido. Both had had normal levels before they developed the conditions.
That's why I've been saying this. The latter woman with hormone disorder cracked up at all the questions and assumptions I had had about testosterone. I interrogated her for details once I learned of her condition as you can imagine.
That and there is no evidence to back up the claim that HRT 'changes' your mind to the other sex.

Some mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said. A surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

[asiangurliee]

I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

[Lisbeth]

i'm already bad at math 

So is my son.

But both of my daughters are math stars.  And when I was in college the first time, 2/3 of us math majors were girls.  (And no, we were not studying to be teachers.)   >

[Nero]

I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

Typical feminist response. (and I say that with the utmost adoration)

[Nero]

That's what I was referring to - the mind, the the inner workings, the way things are processed.

Nero, no fair, that's kind of spinning the question around to a different place. When you said 'brain' like that, I'm just thinking 'piece of meat',  but...

Do I feel as if trans people as a larger group (!!! whoever they are) have the brains of the their target gender in terms of inner workings, processing, ways of viewing the world... ? As a group, I'm going to say NO. I've met too many people who seem more like their assigned gender than the gender they identify with. I've met a lot of other people who seem more like somewhere in between (eg transgirls who seem more like femmy boys than girls, transmen who seem more like butches than men, transwomen who seem like men, but are perhaps more empathic and in touch with their emotions than men). I don't know what part hormones play in this. I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

Are there some people who DO think like their target gender... sure there are. There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground. I feel as if I'm somewhere in that spectrum (but natch, I'M one of the ones who thinks they have a female brain... soo-prize, soo-prize).

For 10 years (!) I was in a weekly men's psychotherapy group making a desperate effort to see if I could connect to men in some way, and explore some comfortable definition for myself as to what it means to be male. I loved most of the men in that group (who were sweethearts and 'sensitive' guys) and cared about them deeply but, for the life of me, felt like such an odd fish. I experienced practically every issue the group talked about in a very different way than the rest of the group. They liked me and felt deeply about me, but sometimes got really frustrated because I tended to reframe everything the group talked about, pick it to death, and kept wanting to talk about certain issues (like sex, insecurity, body image, not feeling loved) that none of the others were comfortable bringing up. Sometimes members of the group got totally pissed at me the way a guy gets frustrated by women... because I wouldn't let certain subjects alone, kept asking a lot questions, kept asking how someone felt about stuff, kept switching the perspective on issues, yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, much as they cared about me, at some point I had practically every member of the group yelling at me because I wouldn't leave him alone. It was totally the equivalent of when guys turn to their girlfriends/wives and spew out "will you just SHUT UP and leave it the F**K alone!". Now I'm not saying some of that was because I'm just an annoying person, but I do believe a lot of it had to do with my brain working very differently than the rest of theirs. Long answer.

ciao,
Gina M.

You're skipping ahead, doll.   Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

I don't know what part hormones play in this. I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

Thanks. That's what I've been trying to explain to those certain ladies who think estrogen turned them into women mentally. Estrogen does make one more emotional. Females notice this when they get the strong surge during PMS.
They start crying for no reason, and they can't explain why they feel all emotional all of a sudden. It's the increase in estrogen. And I'm not so macho that I won't admit I know this firsthand.
Estrogen can't make you 'feel' and 'think' female. It can only cause you to feel more emotional than you would probably without it.

[seldom]

Some mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

I was empathetic before I started HRT, not to everybody (if I don't like you, I don't like you and its tough for me to be empathetic towards someone I dislike).  I cried before HRT, quite a bit.  In all sorts of occasions (watching happy movies, watching sad movies, in personal conversations, at concerts, it has been easy to move me to tears), the only difference I noticed is it happens faster instead of building up and then happening.  The only differance from HRT I noticed is I don't get as angry, instead well...i get more passive aggressive. 

I was extremely verbose before HRT, and pretty social, though more social in small group settings.  But I had times where I was quiet as well.  But I could chat for five or six hours straight and rarely stop.  I could write long documents without blinking an eye.  I have a very good grasp on language.  I make mistakes, but I write better than 90% of the general populace, and I have a better vocabulary as well.
But this comes from years of education, not brain structure.  I could go on and on. 

I am average at math.  Not my strong suit, but I have genetic women who had a great grasp on it. 

But I don't really know the whole brain sex issue and how it applies to me.  All I know is who I am, I quit asking why when I started to try to be more comfortable with myself.   

The scientific reasons behind this could be various.  It could be that some of our brains are closer to our target sex, it could be different wiring, it could be undiscovered IS conditions, and it could be hormonal reactions.  All of these things are possible.  The fact is a human condition as complex as this one often cannot be explained through just one solitary explanation, no matter how hard we try to search for one. 
The truth about whether TS have the brain of their target sex is more of a maybe in my mind.  Or a "we may never know". 

[cindianna_jones]

I voted yes.

No, my brain does not have the XX chromosomes.  I also have a larger head than most females.

But my mind and thoughts are female. It's not typical female to be sure.  I am more interested in many "manly" areas of study than many men.  But that is not relevant to the way I think, the way I feel, or the way I rationalize.

Cindi

[asiangurliee]

I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

Typical feminist response. (and I say that with the utmost adoration)

Just so you know, sir.  I am a feminine feminist! And I enjoy chivalrousness, I like to have my cake and eat it too.

[seldom]

There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground.

I was like this since I was four.  I didn't understand it until later. 

I wouldn't bother talking to a mens group, I would not even try to connect with men in such a psychotherapy group.  By 15 I was stating on a regular basis that I could not relate to most men and had a total disconnect.  "I don't get guys and I don't think I ever will." 

With that being said there is nothing that is typically male or typically female.  I have noticed a wide amount of variation in both sexes that pinning down certain social behaviors is actually close to impossible.  I know shy women who do not talk to men or women that much and very outgoing and chatty men. Trying to pin down brain sex based on stereotypes is almost impossible. 

I have also met my share of both men and women who do not really fall with men or women and have adopted the social behaviors of neither or both.  I would not call them gender variants, because in many cases they are not.

Trying to pin these things down... is difficult at best. Social behavior has more to do with upbringing and history sometimes then genetic variations or brain sex. It depends heavily on the way you are socialized and the culture you were socialized into. 

[Kate]

Estrogen can't make you 'feel' and 'think' female.

But what does it mean to 'feel' and 'think' female?

I really can't answer your original question, cuz I can't figure out a way to "sex" my mind or thoughts. We could start listing masculine and feminine traits, but we know that doesn't make someone male or female. I honestly have no idea what sex my brain is, anymore than than I know the sex of a stapler, lol. I always shy away from the "I'm woman trapped in a man's body!" spiritual stuff, as for me it's just a metaphor, not a literal truth.

I like to stick to what I DO know:

1) I was born male (as far as I know)
2) I have an unrelenting need to live as a female, though I have no idea why
3) Unless I do what I can to fix that, it'll torture me until the day I die

Everything else is just conjecture.

Does that need make my mind female? I have no idea, lol...

~Kate~

[Laura Elizabeth Jones]

After reading all of this stuff about how HRT makes people more emotional, I really have started to wonder about this. Ever since I come out I have been FAR more emotional than I was in the past, and I am not even on HRT yet. Once I am on it I am going to be a total emotional wreck.  Or maybe just more content with myself and my life.   

[Melissa]

This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said.

It's actually anecdotal evidence I was using.  There is no solid scientific data to prove it either way.

A surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

Perhaps these changes in ourselves and our thinking come as a result of being more in touch with our emotions.  Don't forget, a female brain has a much larger emotional and speech center than a male brain does.  Getting more emotional and more verbose would likely be natural consequences of a brain that feminizes.  Many of the finer details will have been there all along.

As a group, I'm going to say NO. I've met too many people who seem more like their assigned gender than the gender they identify with.

And this is very true as well.  One thing I've noticed is that the older you are when you start HRT, it seems the more *likely* (but definitely NOT without exceptions) a person is to still act like their assigned gender.  However, this phenomenon may actually be a result of many people with less severe GID transitioning at a later age (again, some exception just couldn't due to circumstances) and thus start with a weaker female identity.  Or possibly it could just be a result of trying to be in the role too long.

This is all speculation and not meant to offend anybody.  For the record, I've noticed that most of those "exceptions" I mentioned are actually on here due to being serious enough about their transition.  Most later transitioners I refer to are people I have met offline.  It's also possible that if these people were online and had access to more terms, they may actually identify as androgynes (which is not nearly as commonly known as a TS).

Ironically, I've noticed the ones who act more like their assigned gender tend to actually seem happier living that way than ones who have needed to do a full transition.  But perhaps that's because they didn't have to give up nearly as much of their old lives.

I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

And that could be an explanation to the observations I described above.  What you described correlates well with what I have seen too.

Are there some people who DO think like their target gender... sure there are. There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground. I feel as if I'm somewhere in that spectrum (but natch, I'M one of the ones who thinks they have a female brain... soo-prize, soo-prize).

I learned I could connect with very few men, but I could connect with *some* of them to *some* degree.  However, as I went along in transition, I connected to a lesser degree.  Perhaps I don't know what it's like to truly connect with a man.  I went around without many real friends--just acquaintances for the most part.

Anyhow, that was very thought provoking.  If anyone was offended by anything I said, it was not intended to be, and these were merely educated guesses.  I know there's always exceptions to the rule and so these may be completely inaccurate.

[Nero]

This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said.

It's actually anecdotal evidence I was using.  There is no solid scientific data to prove it either way.

A surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

Perhaps these changes in ourselves and our thinking come as a result of being more in touch with our emotions.  Don't forget, a female brain has a much larger emotional and speech center than a male brain does.  Getting more emotional and more verbose would likely be natural consequences of a brain that feminizes.  Many of the finer details will have been there all along.

We're on the same page then. My apologies. I mistook your meaning in your original post.
I had a looooong debate about this recently in one of my other threads. If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

[Kate]

If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

[asiangurliee]

If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

Yeah, part of being a *guy* is about not being emotional. That is why it is hard to understand them, because they are interested in "logic" and "abstract ideas". >>

[Melissa]

That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Well, they probably can to some degree if somebody was on them long enough.  However, it doesn't mean that the person will like having those thoughts if it is not the same gender.  Now, where I'm fuzzy on is: How much of a person's behaviors and mannerisms are caused by hormones and how much is caused by adoption of the social role? 

For instance, before transition, I tended to be somewhat lazy regarding housework because of the expectation that women should take more responsibility for housework (a notion that was instilled in me by my parents).  When I started transitioning, I got out of this rut and started doing more work.  It was only an adopted aspect of the expected role from my perception.  I underwent many changes in the first couple of months prior to transition including becoming more emotional.  This was before I ever started HRT!!!  It means that many of these female aspects resided in me before I ever underwent any physical changes.

However, as I was on HRT, I noticed things would change mentally all by themselves that I had no control over.  It was very disconcerting to realize that you do not have as much control over yourself as you thought you did.  Some of these changes affect your entire outlook on the world.  Here's a good analogy of what it feels like:  It's like looking at a puzzle and having one piece at a time replaced over a long period of time.  Each one affects your picture of life and how you process information.  As the picture itself constantly changes, you are trying to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.  One day you notice that all pieces have been replaced and the entire puzzle has completely changed.  Then you realize that you are seeing the original picture you started with, it's just that now you are interpreting it completely differently and thus you see an entirely different picture than you did before.

Here's a pictorial example of my analogy:

[Lisbeth]

To divert this topic in a whole other direction...

"Do TS possess the brains of their target sex?"  Why, yes.  I keep them in these jars here on this shelf.