The Hormone Debate

[Kimberly]

I have not been following this topic, but here are just a few coppers I shall toss into the pool...

In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.

My anger was the exact same; I knew that was artificial but I didn't know what else to do at the time. I am SO glad that is gone.

However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased

I am more verbose now as well, (imagine that!), and I THINK more coherent on average, albeit I think I still sound like I am out of my mind way to often. (Probably more so now really, but ^*shrug* my life isn't the same as it was then so it is not a fair comparison really.)

My hearing changed I believe, and something of visual changed; as well as facial recognition for me; That part is ... strange really.

, my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased,

I have not noticed any changes of either really. My speech pattern has changed some but I think something of that should be attributed to concious effort however.

Empathy? Everything still hurts, that one isn't new. (But that is also the depression filtering also; it's not like empathy is a bad thing because really it is a wonderful attribute but... ^*sigh* sure hurts.)

yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.

I am not sure if my emotions have amplified rather they are more fluid and ... more free. I would not say MORE just a lot less on solid ground. Course, I don't think anything of being in tears one moment and not the next; Odd actually now that I think of it but ^*shrug* that was like totally natural so, yeah whatever.

As for depression though, meh, something(s) have happened and.. yeah, it's big, it's back, an it's made as all get out! Er no that is the monster from outer space but , yeh, depression is very mean with very large teeth now. An, oh joy of joys, is getting worse for me.

These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

I am in total agreement.



Anyway, just a few coppers for the wishing well...

[Nero]

I have not been following this topic, but here are just a few coppers I shall toss into the pool...

In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.

My anger was the exact same; I knew that was artificial but I didn't know what else to do at the time. I am SO glad that is gone.

However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased

I am more verbose now as well, (imagine that!), and I THINK more coherent on average, albeit I think I still sound like I am out of my mind way to often. (Probably more so now really, but ^*shrug* my life isn't the same as it was then so it is not a fair comparison really.)

My hearing changed I believe, and something of visual changed; as well as facial recognition for me; That part is ... strange really.

, my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased,

I have not noticed any changes of either really. My speech pattern has changed some but I think something of that should be attributed to concious effort however.

Empathy? Everything still hurts, that one isn't new. (But that is also the depression filtering also; it's not like empathy is a bad thing because really it is a wonderful attribute but... ^*sigh* sure hurts.)

yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.

I am not sure if my emotions have amplified rather they are more fluid and ... more free. I would not say MORE just a lot less on solid ground. Course, I don't think anything of being in tears one moment and not the next; Odd actually now that I think of it but ^*shrug* that was like totally natural so, yeah whatever.

As for depression though, meh, something(s) have happened and.. yeah, it's big, it's back, an it's made as all get out! Er no that is the monster from outer space but , yeh, depression is very mean with very large teeth now. An, oh joy of joys, is getting worse for me.

These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

I am in total agreement.



Anyway, just a few coppers for the wishing well...

I swear this place is infested with wood sprites. Are we in the proximity of an enchanted forest or something?
I'm choking on pixie dust.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 08:19:45 PM

I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that?

Hmm, let's review, shall we?  I started off describing *my* personal experience with hormones.  Then:

Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

At this point, you have strongly implied that I hallucinated and was seeing things that were not there.


In conclusion:

I'm no doctor, I just play one on TV

Since you are not a doctor (and I'm certainly not one of your "patients"), you have absolutely no credibility--especially regarding HRT--in the subject matter and so it's just your very biased "opinion" that my personal experience is wrong, which based on nothing but you own guesses about me.

I never made anything personal. You kept harping on 'personal experience'. All I pointed out is that that is never reliable and has absolutely no medical or scientific relevance. The hallucigenic patient was just the clearest example of this.

Uh...since when is a license to practice medicine a requirement to state your opinion? I assumed it was a given that all replies on this board are opinions.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 08:43:20 PM

Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Oh, I see that missed that one because you split the topic at the same time and I was also posting at that time.  I'll address it now.

So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

*smile*  You make some good points here (at last).  I think we have been both saying the same thing, but miscommunicating.  I agree that the basic underlying thought patterns are very untouched by estrogen.  However, what I didn't agree with is how you have diminished the mental effects of HRT when you have never experienced them yourself.  I did not know how extensive the mental changes were myself until I started it.  What I think happens is that estrogen only amplifies preexisting mental attributes of the brain.  If there is nothing female in the first place, it won't do much.  If a brain is more female, the change will go much further.

I *know* I don't act male.  I know that I never did act completely male.  In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.  However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased (if you look at a history of my posts that I haven't deleted, you'll see), my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased, and yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.  Sexuality went down and then eventually came back up again.  These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

Oddly enough, my parents would swear that I have never acted feminine in my life.

Actually I was referring to someone else in those posts. Two other girls who've debated me on this.
But you can join the wispy wood sprite and dignified mare in the posey covered field if you want to.

[Kimberly]

If it means anything I commented on what Melissa said and what Melissa said alone; My comments are of how things have been for me. In essence, a data point. Nothing more nor less.

As I mentioned previous, I have not been following this topic and I do not think I shall look at it again.

[Nero]

If it means anything I commented on what Melissa said and what Melissa said alone; My comments are of how things have been for me. In essence, a data point. Nothing more nor less.

As I mentioned previous, I have not been following this topic and I do not think I shall look at it again.

lol the wood sprite thing was a joke. I guess my humor doesn't come off very well. I refer to women with a certain 'aura' or 'flair' as wood sprites.

[Rachael]

all the bloody ->-bleeped-<-s want to be pretty fairies *sigh* am i the only blood sucking deamoness?  >


My hrt changes, (lets bear in mind that ive only been on them 7 months.)

Physical:
massive facial fat changes
body fat changes, hips starting to grow, largely just bone growth right now
lost 4 inches from my shoulder measure, (muscle obviously)
hair grows faster
nails faster
less body hair
facial hair turning velus and dissapearing
voice has became naturally female by all accounts.
what body hair i have is softer and finer.
alcohol tollerance plumpeted, as did apetite.
lost 4 shoe sizes, probably wearing too big (parent bought) and fat.
an inch in hight lost.

mental:
music tastes have massively diversified, i was previously into hard dance and metal/goth, now i like everything from ska, folk, pop, to my old favourites.
more emotional, more firey at times, much more vivid in my feelings.
i can see more colours? (probaby seeing things [badum tisk])
empathy, deffinately.
i think about others feelings more.
im more lonely when alone.

[asiangurliee]

I love being more emotional  , I love the fact that I have more intense feelings , I feel alive. I do get more depressed but that is only because my feeling of sadness and tragedy has been intensified.

I was always a bleeding heart, but estrogen made me into a huge bleeding heart

At the same time, I used to be very argumentative, now I am more concerned about reaching a compromise, or an understanding between people. Instead of changing their opinions, I think changing one's heart and allowing an open discussion and considering how other people think is more important.

That does not mean I have become any less socialist or less passionate about human rights and social/economic rights, but I just feel that being confrontational and argumentative does not always lead to anything.

In terms of my body,  I have always had a feminine figure, now it's only more feminine than before.

My butt gets a lot of comments  , that's all I have to say.

[Rachael]

My butt gets a lot of comments  , that's all I have to say.

oh yeah, my arse rocks too, ive had many comments about my ass and legs, i look the sex in jeans...


Ashley: i like fairies, dont get me wrong, but thier wings get stuck in my canines...

[Rachael]

thats where im going wrong... i rarely play with my food you see... and im usually only interested in big arteries...


R

[Diane]

Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

[Nero]

Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

Every board needs her resident expert. Every board needs to hear the voice of reason.

[katia]

Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

i hope to atheist god that you're talking about someone who is "male" or else that person could say the same thing about you.

[Rachael]

i belive they mean nero, who is un ignoreable due to his global mod status...


and hes not arogant, simply challenging steriotypes loudly, for which i applaud him, and his efforts...
Nero: dont stop doin yo thing mang...

[Wendy]

I am still sitting up in the tree and I have a big grin on my face.

Did you know you can see further from the top of a tree than from the grass?

I never said taking female hormones "creates" a female brain; however, taking hormones does effect your brain.

At two years these "mints" and assorted goodies have had profound effects on my mind. 

First the reduction of T seems to have calmed some gender anxiety.  My overall depression can still get very high.

Second the addition of E has made a very emotional person even more emotional.

These changes are influencing how I interact with the world and how the world views me.  These interactions are stored in my brain and I am different. 

Do you think my views of myself are different?  Do you think people view me different?  (Hint: Yes to both those questions.) 

You might say well that is because you look like a girl.  I do not.

I have minimal changes in my appearance.

Bottomline the world views me as a male but is viewing me different simply because I am more emotional when I interact with them.  Both males and females still talk to me.  I have always had a close bond to females emotionally but it it really close now.

But what would I know when I am sitting in the tree?

[tinkerbell]

I don't knoooow, (chewing gum and twirling my hair)

ROFL    You're too funny, Lori.   

tink

[Shana A]

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again.

Nero,

I'd go even further and say that the majority of our society has no idea either. From earliest childhood we're all force fed numerous assumptions and stereotypes regarding the "opposite sex". Others who have learned their lessons well police everyone else into conformity, or misery, for those of us who can't adapt. Throughout a lifelong, soul searching journey, I've come to an understanding of my gender as outside the binary. I'm not a man, I've known this since childhood and could never act like one, but that didn't necessarily mean that I'm a woman. I don't know what "sex" my brain is. It probably doesn't matter, I'm just me.

Zythyra

[asiangurliee]

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again.

Nero,

I'd go even further and say that the majority of our society has no idea either. From earliest childhood we're all force fed numerous assumptions and stereotypes regarding the "opposite sex". Others who have learned their lessons well police everyone else into conformity, or misery, for those of us who can't adapt. Throughout a lifelong, soul searching journey, I've come to an understanding of my gender as outside the binary. I'm not a man, I've known this since childhood and could never act like one, but that didn't necessarily mean that I'm a woman. I don't know what "sex" my brain is. It probably doesn't matter, I'm just me.

Zythyra

Sometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.  >

[Shana A]

Sometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well 

zythyra

[Wendy]

Sometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well 

zythyra

I can totally relate to these comments.  However we are discussing if hormones effect your brain.  I say they influenced my behavior!  Hormones have not removed all the confusion.  There is no confusion to me if I could pick a gender and wave the magic wand which one I would pick.  The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

[Nero]

Sometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well 

zythyra

The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means ) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

[Wendy]

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means ) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

O.K.,  Nero.   I am coming down from the tree.  Tell you mom I have DeWalts... but I can't play golf.

Yes not fitting a mold bothers me greatly and adds to my confusion.  I agree that hormones do not turn a fully developed male brain into a female brain.  However if some of the wiring is different to start then hormones can help somewhat.  Removing the T seemed to help me with some of the gender confusion but I had to struggle with being without energy for a long time.