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Smile, b!t¢h

Started by Joanna Dark, July 09, 2014, 12:03:53 PM

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Evelyn K

#20
Quote from: Oriah on July 09, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
It's not always about sex.  Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment. 

It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances.  When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed.  Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.

The problem is men just don't know when they're being creepy. The whole "male gaze" thing. It's pervasive and mostly uninvited.

It's like men feel like it's their universal right, to own the object of their attention. A testosterone induced sense of entitlement.

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Oriah

#21
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 10, 2014, 01:23:32 AM
The problem is men just don't know when they're being creepy. The whole "male gaze" thing. It's pervasive and mostly uninvited.

It's like men feel like it's their universal right, to own the object of their attention. A testosterone induced sense of entitlement.



I'd say that's pretty sexist.  I always notice that women frequently seem to be sexist toward men, while complaining how sexist men are...
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Sammy

Quote from: Evelyn K on July 09, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
I wonder if our female gender is partly to blame? We never initiate. So our culture expects males to open us in dialogue.

Kind of a catch-22.

And this if fething wrong. I also want to get back on what Oriah just said about men being quite insecure and fragile and whatnot. If I would have waited till they get their wits together to make the initial advance or follow-up... I would still be waiting. Sometimes, nope... often they fear rejection or just cannot figure us out (just like we often cannot figure out them), so when You see something like that, You need to take soft but decisive action. A bit of mystery or flirting is totally appropriate, but if things between people need to be sorted out then somebody has to do it.
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Autumn Faith



Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 09, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Well, this might sound odd, but I ALWAYS smile.  Especially when I encounter another person; I automatically smile at everyone I meet.  I just do.

I have a feeling that this kind of tension between random strangers on the street might, at least in part, be geographical.  Living in Portland, Oregon, I have almost never had a street encounter with a random man that could not easily be managed with a smile, a "Thank you", and an "I gotta go".

It might just be that I'm a incorrigible flirt (I am), but I have a tendency in my life to treat everyone I encounter, however briefly, as if they matter.  It isn't at all unusual for some random man to speak to me on the street or in some public place, and for me to stop for a moment and have a brief conversation, a laugh, a human moment with him.  I find that, strange though it may sound, sometimes when strangers say something as random as, "You should smile", what they really mean to say is, "I'm lonely; won't you take a moment to acknowledge me and remind me of my humanity?"

In my own experience, I find that people respond well to me when I respond well to them.  And when some random guy speaks to me, on the street or in a pool hall, in almost every case, taking just a minute or 2 to have a human to human interaction is enough to satisfy what it is in him that inspired him to reach out to me.

I'm sorry... just an alternative perspective on the subject.




     Wow.... you blew me away.

Thank you for your humanity.  I will take what you have said and try to apply it to my life as I feel it is an incredible statement. I love the lonely validation part and wonder how often this happens. We all struggle to be accepted,  as well as non transgendered people. It's a brilliant statement  that gives me hope for mankind in the future.
Executive director of Trans Umbrella Foundation inc.

Because Life is TUF!!
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Evelyn K

^^ Yeah, but be smart about it, given your situation (awareness and all that). Some of the sweetest talkers could end up being your worst nightmare.

Everyone should read, "The Gift of Fear" to help you keep things in perspective.

Personally, any male invading my space uninvited is a red flag.
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JulieBlair

Aware yes, fearful no.  I have spent my entire life willing to talk to anyone who would like to.  Presenting as male or as myself it doesn't matter very much.  Except for a brief time in my twenties, I've never been so pretty that I was hit on that much (and back then it was mostly gay guys), but I've never interpreted friendly interactions as predation.  I have and had girlfriends that were subject to pretty constant male appraisal, and they would tire of the constant implied sexual interest.

Evelyn's animated cartoon is kinda of accurate and kinda sad too.  Men are clueless on how to be a friend to women sans sexual tension, and also mostly clueless as to how and when to open up.  I know before I transitioned I was ever so hesitant to tell a woman the her dress was killer, or make any other comment about how she was put together.  Now I'll ask total strangers where they got something I think is great, and am sometimes given way more information than I was expecting or asking for. lol  But I find that I do the same thing in return with women, but never with men.

It makes me very sad that we necessarily temper humanity with caution, but that is the way it is.  I was at a self defense lecture at a trans conference a couple of months ago.  Frankly it was scary having a cop describe what can and does happen to women, and to t-girls in particular. 

Now that I have thoroughly depressed myself, I guess that while I wish it wasn't so, it is the way that it is, harassment is real and predators are there.  Sure sucks though.

Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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Megan Joanne

Totally agree with Oriah, Miharu Barbie, and ♡ Emily ♡ on everything said. Good points.

Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 09, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Well, this might sound odd, but I ALWAYS smile.  Especially when I encounter another person; I automatically smile at everyone I meet.  I just do.

I have a feeling that this kind of tension between random strangers on the street might, at least in part, be geographical.  Living in Portland, Oregon, I have almost never had a street encounter with a random man that could not easily be managed with a smile, a "Thank you", and an "I gotta go".

It might just be that I'm a incorrigible flirt (I am), but I have a tendency in my life to treat everyone I encounter, however briefly, as if they matter.  It isn't at all unusual for some random man to speak to me on the street or in some public place, and for me to stop for a moment and have a brief conversation, a laugh, a human moment with him.  I find that, strange though it may sound, sometimes when strangers say something as random as, "You should smile", what they really mean to say is, "I'm lonely; won't you take a moment to acknowledge me and remind me of my humanity?"

In my own experience, I find that people respond well to me when I respond well to them.  And when some random guy speaks to me, on the street or in a pool hall, in almost every case, taking just a minute or 2 to have a human to human interaction is enough to satisfy what it is in him that inspired him to reach out to me.

I'm sorry... just an alternative perspective on the subject.

Quote from: Oriah on July 09, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
It's not always about sex.  Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment. 

It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances.  When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed.  Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on July 10, 2014, 02:19:10 AM
And this if fething wrong. I also want to get back on what Oriah just said about men being quite insecure and fragile and whatnot. If I would have waited till they get their wits together to make the initial advance or follow-up... I would still be waiting. Sometimes, nope... often they fear rejection or just cannot figure us out (just like we often cannot figure out them), so when You see something like that, You need to take soft but decisive action. A bit of mystery or flirting is totally appropriate, but if things between people need to be sorted out then somebody has to do it.

Whenever I'm out, be it work or shopping, if someone looks at me for more than just an instant I tend to give a smile, for me this is just me showing friendly acknowledgement (and usually about the best anyone'll get out of me showing any kind of initiative, that I actually made first response), kind of like a nod or a hello, nothing more to it, just a nice gesture to show that I'm not a scared rabbit (used to be) or rude stuck up bitch (I probably seemed like I was years ago). Sometimes I get a smile back, sometimes a nod or hello, but other times no response at all, 'shrugs that last one off, keep going about what I was doing.'

Our apartment complex is renovating the exteriors, siding, as well as fixing porches and balconies. All the guys have gotten used to seeing me when I go out to walk Snickers. When I pass by one or two I'll smile, they'll either smile back or say hello, in which I return the greeting. If standing around as a group, say when they were all taking a break yesterday afternoon, I noticed them looking me over almost in unison, some with cigarettes in their mouths, a few with smiles on their faces, but all eyeballs on me (undressing me with their eyes, oh no!, but then that's only if you are a paranoid feminist; I say let 'em look, that's completely harmless, and really for me, that's positive attention), talking amongst each other, hmm, what could they being saying (oh my god, they're thinking dirty thoughts! Okay, its possible just as anything is, meaning they could be thinking or talking about any number of things) but I merely smile, and once in in a while might exchange a few words. Yesterday one carrying a ladder stopped and said something about when Snickers was barking and growling that day they were in front of our sliding glass door window, then was telling me about that it was going to take a lot longer to finish all this work than planned and how after that they were going to do some work in another state and how he didn't think he'd want to, I listened, said a few things to that, and that was it, harmless human interaction (he's a man, I'm a woman, so what, he goes back to the task at hand, I continue on walking my dog). There's nothing wrong with being friendly, most of the time there's no ulterior motive, people just like to be acknowledged, that they aren't invisible. And of coarse some of these people will be men, they need attention to, so what if maybe they'd show my more than say another guy, that maybe the attention was directed more my way because he thought I was pretty, so what, no big deal, its not like something more will come of it. A smile or friendly greeting even as brief as it is can make the difference in someone's day, turning what could have been bad for them to actually making them feel a bit better.
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Miharu Barbie

Quote from: Evelyn K on July 09, 2014, 10:22:54 PM
How come I've never had a troll follow me around. or squeeze my ass. :(

Bring it over here... I'll give it a squeeze for ya.
FEAR IS NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!


HRT:                         June 1998
Full Time For Good:     November 1998
Never Looking Back:  Now!
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PoeticHeart

The 'compliment' itself is not the problem. The self entitlement is.

Saying women should just 'accept' this activity by men is a more subtle form of victim blaming. "Well if only you would just hush up like a good little lady, maybe then life wouldn't be so bad for you".



If men would learn that women aren't props for their viewing pleasure ('a pretty girl like you should always smile'), then maybe women wouldn't have to sit on their 'feminist high horse' as much.

It is a pretty horse though, isn't it?  ;)
"I knew what I had to do and I made myself this solemn vow: that I's gonna be a lady someday. Though I didn't know when or how." - Fancy by Reba McEntire
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Evelyn K

Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 10, 2014, 10:52:24 AM
Bring it over here... I'll give it a squeeze for ya.

Will be taking a dirigible, they are faxing me my flight tickets now!
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Stephanie2

My smiling days may be over until I come up with the money for a dentist to fix a badly broken front tooth! Big chip.
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Sammy

Really, it does surprise me how people are able to make such a fuss out of simple things... and the amount of androphobia in this thread is a bit worrying too.
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Jay27

(Accidentally posted my reply when I wasn't done typing it before, oops!)

I was saying that so long as they aren't treating you 'specially' simply because you are a woman (or considered pretty), it is generally okay. A friend of mine's sister was walking around once when a guy whistled at her saying how pretty and sexy she is. She turned around and gave him the finger, to which he shouted "B****! Accept a compliment!" Many men feel like women are entitled to their opinions, which is ridiculous. Even if you find someone attractive, you don't have to announce it in such a way. It just makes the person you're 'complimenting' feel like a sexual object for you to look at. I wrote a whole essay about things like this that a lot of women have to deal with on a regular basis, but I just wanted to briefly talk about it here. The good news is: it means you pass as a woman. The bad news is: you will most likely come across a lot of misogynistic people who will make crude comments at you. It isn't bad if you stand up for yourself. What sucks is that standing up for yourself is almost a necessity in this world in order to stay safe...it shouldn't have to be that way, but it is the unfortunate reality. 

Smiling to strangers is absolutely fine, though. I sometimes see people flashing a brief smile at me as I pass by them, and I return it. It just brightens my mood to spread happiness around with others, I guess. Especially when I am having a bad day...sometimes I just need that small grin from a complete stranger to make me feel better.
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Megan Joanne

I've gotten whistled at as well as honked at by passing cars with men in them, what do I think of it? Nothing really, I smile and keep on walking (unless I'm in a bad mood, then I just mutter curse words under my breath), its no big deal. Those guys that do that, they are a very small minority of all the good respectable men out there, most may probably think it, but have learned that this kind of behavior won't score them any points with any self-respecting women. Ignore the ->-bleeped-<-s, move on.
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Evelyn K

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Hideyoshi

Quote from: PoeticHeart on July 10, 2014, 11:05:16 AM
The 'compliment' itself is not the problem. The self entitlement is.

Saying women should just 'accept' this activity by men is a more subtle form of victim blaming. "Well if only you would just hush up like a good little lady, maybe then life wouldn't be so bad for you".

If men would learn that women aren't props for their viewing pleasure ('a pretty girl like you should always smile'), then maybe women wouldn't have to sit on their 'feminist high horse' as much.

It is a pretty horse though, isn't it?  ;)

It's one thing to give someone a compliment, not necessarily expecting a response. It's another thing to respond to an unsolicited comment with a ->-bleeped-<- you and a middle finger.

If somebody gives you a freaking COMPLIMENT, you are not a VICTIM. You live in a society where the free exchange of ideas exist. You can accept a freaking compliment, ignore it, or give a high-horsed feminist response and rant on tumblr about how oppressed you were.  If you choose the last option, do not be surprised when people find your vitriol venomous and distasteful.

If you don't want to be complimented, why not just go out in a burka or just stop HRT and grow a full beard? Why even bother trying to pass at all? The only reason men and women find each other attractive is due to the biological wiring for reproduction, so yes, in a way, women ARE props for viewing pleasure. So are men. But you wouldn't see a physically fit, handsome man going on tumblr crying about how women smile at him and give him compliments about how strong he looks.

If you don't like a damned compliment, then just ignore it. If you want to feel oppression, why not take a trip to a country where women are actually oppressed? Iraq and many parts of Africa come to mind.
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Nero

Quote from: Hideyoshi on July 09, 2014, 03:09:30 PM
While the ass grabbing is unacceptable,  something as benign as "smile more, you're very pretty" is not 'males exerting their power over women'. Christ. I find the current wave of feminism highly distasteful and it wouldn't surprise me if it chased acceptance away due to how utterly off-putting it can be.

Same with the offended-by-everything tumblrites who thrash around every time someone says something about sexual dimorphism, gender binary,  etc.

Guys flirting with you comes with the territory as a woman, especially if you're lucky enough to be attractive. You signed up for it, no turning back now.

Well, it may be a small thing, but it is a bit infantalizing. Most of the time, it's not really 'flirting' and the guy (or girl) probably thinks they're being nice or friendly. It's the expectation that women look 'pleasing' that's the issue. It's just a small symptom of the way women are seen as opposed to men.

Edit: oh just noticed Poetic heart just explained it a lot better.  :)
Like I said, while it's nothing to get bent out of shape about, it's part of the larger picture where men are left alone and respected but women have to endure all kinds of encroaching on their personal space.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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PoeticHeart

Quote from: Hideyoshi on July 10, 2014, 06:41:09 PM
It's one thing to give someone a compliment, not necessarily expecting a response. It's another thing to respond to an unsolicited comment with a ->-bleeped-<- you and a middle finger.

If somebody gives you a freaking COMPLIMENT, you are not a VICTIM. You live in a society where the free exchange of ideas exist. You can accept a freaking compliment, ignore it, or give a high-horsed feminist response and rant on tumblr about how oppressed you were.  If you choose the last option, do not be surprised when people find your vitriol venomous and distasteful.

If you don't want to be complimented, why not just go out in a burka or just stop HRT and grow a full beard? Why even bother trying to pass at all? The only reason men and women find each other attractive is due to the biological wiring for reproduction, so yes, in a way, women ARE props for viewing pleasure. So are men. But you wouldn't see a physically fit, handsome man going on tumblr crying about how women smile at him and give him compliments about how strong he looks.

If you don't like a damned compliment, then just ignore it. If you want to feel oppression, why not take a trip to a country where women are actually oppressed? Iraq and many parts of Africa come to mind.

Apart from the personal attacks that are being thrown about, I'm gonna stay on point. But apparently, I'm the one spewing vitriol.

Yes, we could sit here and argue about 'who has it worse' until we were blue in the face. I don't live in those places though, so I'll leave that work to the activists that are there. You know... the people that understand the culture and people of that land. Furthermore, the analogy of 'piles of crap' comes to mind. We can try to see which is crappier, but in the end, it's still a bunch of crap.

I'm not trying to attack men, and sure, there are some out there that don't behave in these ways. But there are statistics upon statistics that show this kind of behavior (as a generalization) has gotten way out of hand. And women aren't the only ones affected by patriarchal standards either. Men have obscene standards of beauty and behavior placed on them that can cause significant psychological harm.

I could go on and on, but really, I'm either preaching to the choir or people aren't listening. I'm done. 
"I knew what I had to do and I made myself this solemn vow: that I's gonna be a lady someday. Though I didn't know when or how." - Fancy by Reba McEntire
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Evelyn K

All of the above has been touched upon quite a bit here

Navigating the Male Gaze As a Trans Woman
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165149.msg1426125.html#msg1426125
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Aina

Everyone should smile more often, and everyone should smile even more when they don't feel like it.

We take advantage of so much, and there are people who are far worse off then most of us, and a lot of them find a reason to smile.

- As for men looking as women objectively, Women do this also maybe just not as vocal as men. Guys tend to be more open about doing it. This doesn't mean it is right, but we have "all" drooled over people we find attractive.

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