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why do you think the non-trans have such a hard time understanding the trans

Started by stephaniec, July 12, 2014, 01:36:58 PM

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TheQuestion

Quote from: Kitty. on July 16, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)

Congratulations, that's great!!!
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Allyda

Quote from: Kitty. on July 16, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
Wow! Thank you for such wonderful replies. I may not have known about GD at first, but living with my partner** has taught me plenty. I see her daily suffering, and though I can't help her no matter how much I long to, I'm always there to offer smiles, love, and a listening ear. She's my beautiful soulmate, and I hate that she's hurting.

And so many positives have come to light because of her situation. Even my sister, who was kind of stuck in life, wants to get into uni with the aim that one day she will have a job helping trans people, because there's not many people out there for you.




**More specifically, fiancée, since I proposed to her last week and, amazingly, she said yes! :) :) :) (I wrote about it in my thread in the SO's area.)
Awwwwwe this is so sweet! Congratulations to both you and your SO. Kitty you are a jewel in the rough. May you both have a fabulous marriage, and a very happy life together.  :eusa_clap:

Allie :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Kitty.

Thank you! We're both over the moon, which is fantastic because she's been having such a rough time with GD.
Soulmate to a beautiful MtF
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Allyda

Quote from: Kitty. on July 18, 2014, 02:51:53 PM
Thank you! We're both over the moon, which is fantastic because she's been having such a rough time with GD.
I only wish my ex-SO could have read your story before we broke up after 4 and a half years together. Maybe it would have helped her understand what she evidently couldn't. Oh she knew I was IS and trans. I told her my story when we became serious about each other. She just couldn't understand, or just didn't want to, certain aspects of my dysphoria and I felt used over our last 6 months together until it finally came to a head 2 months ago, and I'd had enough.

Again, congratulations to you and your SO.

Allie :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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antonia

I think you nailed it in these few lines.

But what keeps amazing me is how little the LGB part of LGBT know about us, in some cases I've had a much easier time explaining to straight cis people what it is to be transgender than the lesbian, gay and bisexual people in my life. I think we need a lot more exposure in media and within our own communities so that one day sex-ed in every school will include a section about being transgender.

Quote from: Annabella on July 12, 2014, 03:31:11 PM
Putting on my neurology/biology/evopsych hat for a moment to explore a single angle on this question:

I think one thing that makes life very difficult for trans people is that there was a selective pressure in human evolution toward being able to clearly identify gender. The differences in build and facial structure between men and women for example is there to signal to the opposite sex "hey, if we copulate, we can have babies and won't that make our selfish genes happy!".

When someone transitions, it is very difficult to go from one gender to the other completely, and people (uneducated people) experience something akin to the uncanny valley when looking at them. The uncanny valley comes out of robotics research, and basically it is the sensation of discomfort that increases the more human a robot becomes until it passes a certain threshold where it appears "quite human" to them. It comes (from what I have read) from being geared to identify illness in others.

When a person is transitioning genders the same thing occurs. There is a point where the ambiguity of gender will cause discomfort in an uneducated person.
Now I know I said a lot about evolution, but I would be remiss not to add this very salient point:
A person's perception of where that uncanny valley between male and female is has a great deal to do with their socialization. They are taught growing up what signs of fertility and gender are prevalent in that culture and they subconsciously use that when evaluating others. This is why, I think, the visibility of transgender/transexual individuals in media is so important.

Once a person is exposed to enough images of transgender people, their perception of the boundaries between male and female presentation becomes more blurred, and they become more accepting subconsciously of the grey areas in-between. This is why I find the hollywood obsession with extreme archetypical presentations of gender to be harmful. Movies and television are one of the primary ways that young people are taught to view gender in society. I won't say many good things about Japanese cinema, but I will say they treat transgender people a lot more favorably and frequently than the US media.

Of course, I could be wrong about a lot of that, and I am always happy to be corrected.
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Evienne

If I were to give a scientific/psycological answer it would be that, we can't hide from the fact that transgenderness is technically a disorder. A mess up in the way our genes where put together when born, and too much of the wrong hormones. The most of people don't get a "dissorder" therefore they don't understand what it would feel like biologically.
To most people, seeing one crossing over to the other sex is completely mindblowing due to the fact that they don't think that way.
But when it comes to acceptance or discrimination, this would be the same thing as racism in a way. Nobody is born racist, or a discriminator. It's that as growing up, mostly influenced by parents or else society, depending on who one is with, will train their mind weather to accept or not seeing something like this.

Scientifically speaking of course.
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Ticking Time bomb: 533 days
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Alainaluvsu

I haven't read through the thread, just read the OP. From my experience, people gain an understanding with the more exposure they have, and the more likable you are. I also think it's easier to understand if the person in question is more "conforming" (for a lack of better word atm) to the gender roles and social norms of the gender (male or female only) they are setting out to show.

The annoying part of being a MtF is that females have a pretty strict "code" compared to guys, we are expected to speak about, and react, in a very specific way (females as a whole, not just MtFs). We have a pretty strict dress code, vocabulary, and we have a balance between being meek and assertive to tightrope walk. On top of that, we have to overcome the damage to our bodies that testosterone has done (voice, bone structure, etc). These factors make it harder to blend into an expected pattern of behavior that females are judged on.

I think exposure and civic pride may have a bit to do with it, too. People who are positively exposed to gender variant people and those who are proud to be a part of an accepting society are obviously going to be more willing to understand and accept people who are not exposed to transgender people and those who live in an area which would rather not understand. I'm sure I wouldn't do as well in say, small town West Texas as I would in where I'm at now.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Foxglove

Here's a story I've just come across--written by a man who is fully supportive of his transgender son.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-greenwood/my-trans-son-standing-tall_b_5568825.html?utm_hp_ref=transgender

This is one thing he says about his struggle to understand what was going on with his son:

Maybe the real reason that transgender issues are tougher to talk about than gay and lesbian ones is that it is almost impossible to separate the idea of gender from what we have between our legs.

As I said earlier, I think cispeople tend to be very "body-centred".  That is, for them the difference between male and female seems to be primarily (if not exclusively) physical.  Yes, people will talk about the differences between the male and female psychologies, but cispeople don't seem to see the psychology as being on a par with the physique.  It seems they take the psychology as given, once they've determined what the physique is.

It may simply be a question of familiarization: they need to learn the difference between sex and gender and to see that the psychology is every bit as important a factor (if not more) as the physique in determining what someone is.
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StevieAK

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 12, 2014, 09:39:24 PM
The problem is, we as humans can only understand things through the vantage point of our own limited experiences.

Whenever someone describes something to us, we're always mentally comparing it to things that we ourselves have gone through in order to understand it and empathize with it.

Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt.

So, well, it's no wonder that we're so often criticized by cis-men for being deviant sexual fetishists, because that's their experience with feminine things, is being sexually attracted to them. It's why women criticize trans men for just trying to transition in order to gain male privilege, because they have likely experienced frustration with being female due to social problems, so they're assuming it's the same. These people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong. They're trying to filter these things through their own experiences with the opposite sex.

I know I did the same thing when I first hit puberty. I actually thought that I was heterosexual, because, well, other guys liked looking at girls too. So I assumed that all guys were doing the same thing as me, looking at women and imagining that they were them. I thought that this was what made heterosexual relationships, was men wondering what it was like to be women, and women wondering what it was like to be men, and that's why they were so fascinated with each-other. I was completely shocked when I learned that other people really weren't doing that, they were just looking at the opposite sex and imagining having sex with them, or simply just turned on by the view.

Again... it's all trying to understand other's emotions based on only your own limited experiences.

I agree, we can only see the worls from our eyes.

Probably the reasons for blanket acceptablity is as varied as we are and the reason just as complex but based on your quote above. 
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Foxglove

Another news story I've come across with good news and puzzling news.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/20/canada-catholic-school-district-creates-first-transgender-student-policy/

The good news is that some Catholic schools are allowing trans pupils to go to school as transpeople.  The puzzling news is the statement that the Archdiocese in question issued while announcing its new policy:

"The Catholic faith, informed by biblical theology, teaches that the body and soul of the human being are so united that one's sexual identity is rooted in one's biological identity as male or female.

"Thus, in Catholic teaching, one's sexual identity is considered 'a reality deeply inscribed in man and woman'.

"This means that the Catholic Church teaches that gender is given by God and that the body reveals the divine plan. As such, humans are not free to choose or change their sexual identity.

"The Catholic school has a responsibility for the spiritual development of its students. Gender transitioning is contrary to Catholic teaching, and therefore the Catholic school cannot support any transitioning actions."


No need to point out the mistakes made here.  It is discouraging to note, however, that the Church, for all its resources, cannot come to an understanding of what ->-bleeped-<- is.

The irony is that they state that they "cannot support any transitioning activities."  In the midst of their confusion, they fail to understand that changing your name, your pronouns and your dress is in fact a "transitioning activity".
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Allyda

I don't remember which article/s, but I read somewhere that with some cis men, they consider MTF transgenders an insult to their masculinity. I dunno how true that is, but I've saw it in more than one article. To me this opinion seems a bit shallow, but again, I dunno.

As Carrie Liz states: "Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt." I think this statement for the most part sums the problem up.

Just my $.02

Allie :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Jill F

Quote from: Allyda on July 21, 2014, 12:43:04 PM
I don't remember which article/s, but I read somewhere that with some cis men, they consider MTF transgenders an insult to their masculinity. I dunno how true that is, but I've saw it in more than one article. To me this opinion seems a bit shallow, but again, I dunno.

As Carrie Liz states: "Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt." I think this statement for the most part sums the problem up.

Just my $.02

Allie :icon_flower:


I like this post.

Why is something as theoretically strong as the concept of masculinity in itself so fragile?  I find the irony laughable and sad at the same time.
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Allyda

Thank's Jill. I myself can point out two cases I know this to be a factor: my ex next door neighbor and my friend Reaver's father. Both showed an aversion for my transition I haven't seen before nor since. But then again both of them are drunks so to me their opinions are worthless, lol!

Allie :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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katiej

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on July 19, 2014, 05:49:32 AM
I haven't read through the thread, just read the OP. From my experience, people gain an understanding with the more exposure they have, and the more likable you are. I also think it's easier to understand if the person in question is more "conforming" (for a lack of better word atm) to the gender roles and social norms of the gender (male or female only) they are setting out to show.

The annoying part of being a MtF is that females have a pretty strict "code" compared to guys, we are expected to speak about, and react, in a very specific way (females as a whole, not just MtFs). We have a pretty strict dress code, vocabulary, and we have a balance between being meek and assertive to tightrope walk. On top of that, we have to overcome the damage to our bodies that testosterone has done (voice, bone structure, etc). These factors make it harder to blend into an expected pattern of behavior that females are judged on.

You make some interesting points about how we fit into society.  One of our problems is that most of our community spends several years transitioning and then they work like heck to blend in.  So, most cis-people's concept of trans people is shaped by the only ones they've been exposed to...the awkward transitioner and Jerry Springer (or substitute any modern or recent show that uses the guy in a dress to drive ratings).

I think you're also spot on when you talk about the strict code with women, and how that can make or break our ability to blend in.  It's interesting that most discussions around here about that subject -- or passing in general -- are usually dominated by the "don't worry about it, you be you" narrative.  And I don't think that's helpful.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Carrie Liz

Just throwing this out there as well:

A lot of people are just uninformed.

Like, back in high school, my mom met someone who she suspected was trans, and she muttered about how trans women were a "caricature of women," and "trying too hard to be female," and she seriously thought, based on the limited (mis)information that she got about trans people from the media, that they were just men who always liked feminine things, and so they arbitrarily decided to be female so that they could do those feminine interests. So she basically saw trans women, as a lot of people do, as just gay men pretending to be women.

I was misinformed as a teenager too, as a lot of us were. I didn't know about HRT. I didn't know that it was possible to get a (more or less) completely female body from hormones alone, no surgery required. I didn't know that you didn't have to have childhood dysphoria to be trans. I didn't know that you could be trans despite having very tomboyish interests. And I didn't know that there were trans people across the whole gender-expression spectrum, I thought that every trans woman had to be hyper-feminine.

Youtube was what changed this for me, where I finally got to see trans women tell their own stories instead of biased news programs which constantly sensationalized it. I realized it was common, and it wasn't the big flipping deal everyone made it out to be.

And guess what? My mom, who would have been one of those people who spoke out against trans people and didn't really understand why they'd want to be women, learned, because of me. Because I got to explain to her first-hand, in my own words, what it felt like. And she was willing to listen, and so she learned. She's even told me first-hand, "I never understood trans people until you started telling me about it. Now I do."


So that's the real problem here, is just misinformation... the media constantly sensationalizing the transition process, framing trans narratives as a sideshow attraction ("Hurry, hurry, hurry, step right up! See the amazing woman who was born a man but went through surgery to remove her penis! Whooo! You'll be amazed! You'll be horrified! Step right up!") [and this is why trans men are so invisible in the media, because it's a lot less "sensational" for a woman to want to be a man, since our culture has a big misogyny problem.] That is the issue, just that trans people never really had the opportunity to tell their own stories before. But now that we do have that chance, things are quickly changing.

A lot of people simply never have the chance to hear from an actual trans person who they are, what they're like, and what their gender means to them. And for a lot of people, it's simply a matter of talking to us and knowing us where they realize for the first time that we're not those perverse female-appropriating crossdressing homosexual fa****s that the media makes us out to be, we're just normal people trying to live our lives.

Information is our ally. The real question is just whether people are willing to listen or not. And to most people's credit, they will listen. It might take them a while, and it might take a long mental battle where they start at denial but slowly move toward acceptance if the message is repeated enough times. There are always a few stubborn people, who once they get set in their ways they'll never change their minds. But for a lot of others, it's just a matter of getting out there and having a chance for them to meet us and learn that we're pretty normal people, and maybe giving them some time to come to terms with it because it challenges their cultural assumptions so much.

I'm pretty optimistic about this. I think we're winning the information battle right now thanks to the visibility of activists like Janet Mock and Laverne Cox. And where being trans used to be a social death sentence if anyone found out, now it's quickly becoming acceptable, especially among well-informed people who are willing to listen and learn. (We have a LONG way to go before we've changed the culture at large, though. Uneducated people who are uninterested in learning still as a whole treat us like freaks. But then again they're still treating gay people like freaks too, so good luck with that. When people are unwilling to learn, it takes FOREVER, and a HUGE change in cultural perceptions, pretty much every other person they know being okay with it, before they'll change.)
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stephaniec

to be honest my perception of trans people was blown apart just by the first day I read the posts on Susan's . It was a major shift in my thinking. I've been trans all my life but was in so much denial trying to be the male I was supposed to be. I worked for 5 years in an LGBT orientated neighborhood and saw a small spectrum of the trans community compared to what is found on Susan's. I never talked to a transgender until Susan's. It totally surprised me.
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Allyda

Quote from: stephaniec on July 23, 2014, 01:20:26 PM
to be honest my perception of trans people was blown apart just by the first day I read the posts on Susan's . It was a major shift in my thinking. I've been trans all my life but was in so much denial trying to be the male I was supposed to be. I worked for 5 years in an LGBT orientated neighborhood and saw a small spectrum of the trans community compared to what is found on Susan's. I never talked to a transgender until Susan's. It totally surprised me.
During one of my adopted fathers attempts to find out "why I looked so feminine," as he put it when I was 10, while he and my adopted Mom were speaking with the doctor in another room, I had a wonderful nurse sit down beside me, wipe the tears off my face, and explain to me what being transgender was, and showed me a fashion magazine with the story of a British supermodel who was transgender and had transitioned. Long story short, from that day forward I read anything I could get my hands on about her, and concerning MTF transgenders and my IS condition. As for actually talking to a transgender person for the first time, that came a little later on after I was imancipated and away from my adopted father.

Allie :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Serenahikaru

Like most people, they rely on preconceptions and stereotypes. If they gained knowledge, they could grow to understand, that can go for most things though. They could also only understand if it or something similar happened to them.
"There'll come a day where you realize you were so afraid of what others thought, you never got to live the life you wanted."
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Eris

I think that since we're such a small sample of the population there is a lack of familiarity.
That and a lot of bigoted people are weighing in and insisting that our existence is just plain wrong :(
I refuse to live in fear! Come hell or high water I will not back down! I will live my life!
But you have no life.
Ha. Even that won't stop me.

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stephaniec

Quote from: Allyda on July 23, 2014, 05:44:18 PM
During one of my adopted fathers attempts to find out "why I looked so feminine," as he put it when I was 10, while he and my adopted Mom were speaking with the doctor in another room, I had a wonderful nurse sit down beside me, wipe the tears off my face, and explain to me what being transgender was, and showed me a fashion magazine with the story of a British supermodel who was transgender and had transitioned. Long story short, from that day forward I read anything I could get my hands on about her, and concerning MTF transgenders and my IS condition. As for actually talking to a transgender person for the first time, that came a little later on after I was imancipated and away from my adopted father.

Allie :icon_flower:

that was really a very beautiful thing that nurse did for you. so sorry for your pain. I had good parents who did their best , but really didn't know what I was going through
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