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Are sex change operations justified?

Started by LostInTime, August 01, 2007, 09:06:27 AM

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LostInTime

BBC News
By Innes Bowen
Producer, Hecklers, BBC Radio 4

As a feminist, Julie Bindel therefore has a strong political motivation for her scepticism about sex change surgery.

But, her argument goes beyond ideology.

Having looked into the medical research on transsexualism, she claims there is a lack of science behind the diagnosis, no satisfactory of research into the outcomes for patients and individual stories of post-operative regret.
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Sarah Louise

She needs to be stuck in the wrong body and see if she can survive.

Or, maybe that already happened and that is what her problem is.


Sarah L.


I better curb my tongue today, I am in the mood to attack anything that is moving.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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_Michelle

Bindel's arguments reflect positions claimed by those who "follow" feminist thinker Judith Butler. 

The problem for both Butler and Bindel is that they are projecting a "Lesbian-Rad-Feminist" narrative onto the issue of transsexualism, assuming false equivalences between the narratives. 

One of the key themes that seems to run through their reasoning is the abstract notion that there is no such thing as "identity separate from action" - that is to say our actions reveal our identities.  They therefore contend that transsexualism is little more than a construct, rather than a part of someone's "core identity".  (naturally, the life story of so many transsexuals flies in the face of that analysis)

While Bindel has a legitimate concern about post-operative "regret", she has focused on that, and ignored the various clinical protocols that exist to mitigate that risk.  (I know some are going to hate this, but that's a big part of the HBIGDA "Standards of Care")  Instead, she chose to frame her claims in a framework that implies that SRS is available "on demand" - which is not the case for most of us (unless we happen into a particularly ill-informed or unethical practitioner).

My real objection to Bindel stems not from her position, but the assumptions which her argument stems from.  Although politically, transsexuals are "close cousins" to the GLB communities, it is very poor logic to assume that the Lesbian, or Gay, narrative can be applied to transsexuals.

(I had a rather interesting dialog with a Butler/Lacan specialist about this last fall - I'll post it here if anybody is interested)
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Thundra

This is the one place where I am at odds with radical feminist thinkers, probably because I have been exposed to so many people that have gone through or are going through the process. They tend to see everything as a threat, when in actuality, it is anything but.

If anything, they need to see that ability of a person to choose their sex and or gender role is part of a much more liberal world.

Many rads are lesbian identified and are threatened by the exodus of many butch women into the role of str8 men, and beautiful young trans-women that they used to dismiss as "poofs." But those "poofs" are now part of their community, dating women they know. It's a scary new world for everyone trying to hold onto certainty, but the only certainty these days is that there is none.
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mallard500

Quote from: Thundra on August 05, 2007, 06:42:59 PM
This is the one place where I am at odds with radical feminist thinkers, probably because I have been exposed to so many people that have gone through or are going through the process. They tend to see everything as a threat, when in actuality, it is anything but.

If anything, they need to see that ability of a person to choose their sex and or gender role is part of a much more liberal world.

Many rads are lesbian identified and are threatened by the exodus of many butch women into the role of str8 men, and beautiful young trans-women that they used to dismiss as "poofs." But those "poofs" are now part of their community, dating women they know. It's a scary new world for everyone trying to hold onto certainty, but the only certainty these days is that there is none.

True, true...!  I've often been at odds with many radical feminists because of my involvement in the SM scene - making me a 'male identified rapist and an oppressor'.  And in terms of transitioning, we all form an even greater threat to many of the radical feminists.  (And yes, I definitely consider myself a feminist)

I think their feelings go rather like "If it was born male, or wants to be male, then it must be a threat to women".  Granted, it may seem a shame to "lose" so many of the butch lesbians/dykes in the community, but as one of those, I don't look at it as a loss, but rather claiming my proper identity within the greater Queer community.

Looking at the Old Guard Leather community for example, I'm sometimes inclined to ask that the last Butch to transition please turn off the lights - butch dykes do seem to be starting to become a rarity these days. But if that's the case, it only means that we're probably happier, more fulfilled people, now as we're finally living our lives as who we want/need to be.

Scott
Mallrd500




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Hazumu

...and it's not hard to find a 'regret'.  1% or less of post-ops suffer regret.  If there are 300-million people in the USA, and half of them were born male, and 1 in 2,500 have had SRS, then there are around 600 post-op trans-women who regret their decision to undergo the operation.  I bet I could find two or three easily with an ad in Craigslist...

Karen
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_Michelle

Quote from: Karen on August 05, 2007, 11:14:20 PM
...and it's not hard to find a 'regret'.  1% or less of post-ops suffer regret. 

The problem is substantiating the claim of < 1% "regret".   {Not to mention defining what the term means in a clinical sense}

Follow-up with post-operative transsexuals is notoriously difficult, with so many who "disappear into the woodwork" after surgery.  Which means a lot of the success stories vanish from the clinical "radar" - leaving the clinicians with access to the most unfortunate cases. 

Of course, one of the things that writers like Bindel ignore are the "case history" of those regrets.  My own therapist has been involved with transsexuals for quite some time, and his observation is that the cases where "regret" is most likely are those who rush their transition, and haven't given themselves adequate opportunity to adapt to the new social role before undergoing surgery. 

But that's slightly secondary here.  In order to counter arguments like those of Bindel (and Butler), we need that kind of concrete evidence gathered.  I suspect that the "regret" numbers run in the 1-5% range, with most of those cases being "rushed transitions", and a handful happening (as was the case with Rene Richards) some years post-operatively.

The second problem that I think the rad-fem crowd presents is the fact that their understanding of human psychology (especially of sexuality issues) is derived from Jacques Lacan (a psychologist that the sociologists seem to love, and the psychology/psychiatry types pay little attention to).  This tends to mean that we are also facing a challenge of language - the inferred meanings are quite different between what we are used to from our experiences with therapists and what people like Bindel apply.
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LostInTime

I have had run ins with these types before and it is easy enough to get them tripped up on their own words. One in particular had a problem with pre-op TS women (read: me) and considered them nothing but men in a dress but that post-ops were fine. So I posed the question to her, "You think that women are solely defined by their vagina then?"

Which runs counter to most of what they state that they believe in. Warning: people caught in this trap usually become pretty ticked off that you made them look as stupid as they are and can become violent.
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Rachael

the article is fairly self explanatory. she and other radical feminists will be lost if it is proven that gender behaviour is more inate than conditioned. they will be out of a cause, and laughed at...
plus the woman who now cant have sex needs to check her priorities. i would still have the surgery even if  i could no longer have sex. id live a happy life, without a penis, and with correctly fitting knickers :)

R :police:
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mallard500

Quote from: LostInTime on August 06, 2007, 11:40:43 AM
I have had run ins with these types before and it is easy enough to get them tripped up on their own words. One in particular had a problem with pre-op TS women (read: me) and considered them nothing but men in a dress but that post-ops were fine. So I posed the question to her, "You think that women are solely defined by their vagina then?"

Which runs counter to most of what they state that they believe in. Warning: people caught in this trap usually become pretty ticked off that you made them look as stupid as they are and can become violent.


LOL!  Touché' !  I love it... thank you for a wonderful response to such silliness!

Regrettably, your warning about possible 'violent' reactions is only TOO true.  I was once attacked outside a women's bar by two so-called "feminists" who decided that because I was a self-identified Leather Dyke, I had to be a Male identified rapist and oppressor, and so deserved to be physically attacked.  (Fortunately, the results of their attack were minimal, as I had the strength of righteous anger to strengthen me... and more importantly, they were totally inept - lucky me!)

(BTW, I place the term feminist in quotations because I don't consider them to BE true Feminists, but rather, a couple of misguided people using their own dogma to justify the oppression of others!)

This was my final example of the adage that "the oppressed can BE the oppressor" and that how the oppressed are so often the best at trying to oppress others.  Sad but true...

Scott
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Rachael

to be honest, i wont consider myself truely physically female till i get the operation, i do sometimes feel like ill be seen as a man masqueradeing... its upsetting and heartbreaking, showering hurts, being naked is upsetting. its bloody necesary. even if it just makes my knickers fit right ....

R :police:
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gennee

Much of this debate about sex change operations brings into focus what the medical and social institutions have done to GLBT people as a whole. we were considered to be mentally ill, perverts, usurper of masculinity and femininity gone awry. No one ver found out to be what we really are about.

As a transgender and crossdresser, I see where feminist's fearsare a concern to the movement. People are much more important than any agenda or system. Yes, an individual may be a part of a movement and be dying on the inside also.

I have no intention to transition as I'm comfortable and content with who I am. I understand why people do transition and offer my support. My concern was that they are sure that they are doing the right thing. Once that threshhold is crossed, there's no going back.

Gennee
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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Rachael

would you really want to go back though?

i know id die first...

R :police:
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