[rant] biologically determined trans-ness and the rest of us

[Asche]

I was talking with some people (mostly listening, since I couldn't get a word in edgewise), and they started talking about the idea that trans-ness is biologically determined.  That they were trans because they were born with a female/male brain, and that Science had proven it.

Whenever this topic comes up, I feel alienated, probably because discussions about "boys are/girls are" (or for that matter, any "X are" claims) never seem to have any room for who and how I am.  ("Nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf.") I couldn't help thinking:

Suppose they go ahead with this, and develop a blood test or MRI screening or whatever to prove that someone is biologically trans.  Now society will have to admit that all the people who this test says are trans are legitimately trans.  But what about the "illegitimately trans" -- people who this test doesn't say are trans, but still feel like our assigned gender fits us like Quasimodo's tuxedo?  (Not to mention the people who don't feel like they're 100% male or 100% female.)  Now Science(tm) will have yet another Reason(tm) to those of us who don't fit as mentally ill people who need to just go to a shrink and get cured of our delusions.

But why should we have to have Science justify who we are?  Why should we have to justify what we do at all?  If I have this urge to collect stamps, I collect stamps, and nobody feels the need to prove or disprove my sanity or to dispute my right to do it.  (Well, maybe if I spend all my family's income on it....)  If I decide I like plaid pants, people may doubt my fashion sense, but there won't be national debates about whether my desire to wear plaid pants is "natural."

So if I (male-bodied) want to wear dresses and call myself Suzie, and I'm not hurting anyone, why should I have to get approval from some board of psychiatrists or neurologists or the CDC or whatever before I'm allowed to exist?  If I decide my quality of life would be improved with a different chest "development" and/or different genitals, why should that decision require more proof of legitimacy than if I decide it would be improved by a different nose shape or by bigger or smaller breasts?  Why shouldn't someone's stated conviction that they feel more like some gender other than the one they were assigned at birth be enough?  Why should a sex change require any more judicial review than legally changing one's name from Eustace to Gregory?

I feel like obsessing over the question of the biological basis of trans-ness just buys into the cis world's idea that it's the cis gender police who get to decide whether we are "really" trans or not.  (For some reason, this reminds me of the concept of "legitimate rape.")

[ativan]

Well put. Anything taken out of context especially if for the wrong intent is...

It's on one hand proof that it isn't just a choice, and that proof is aimed at those who do not understand, in general, cisciety.
True, they can then take that as their opportunity to invent a 'cure' for what they perceive as righting the wrongs that is their perception, in general.
Not all cis people believe that gender is simply male or female and there is only one way and theirs is the only way.
But it is true that in general, cisciety does view gender as something to be cured if it doesn't fit their world view.
They have a need to fix most things they disagree with. This is evident in politics and acceptance within the framework of society in general.

Taken out of context and deciding that one thing is proof of something, such as a way to view a brain scan and look at small centers of this or that, is wrong.
Those kinds of 'proof' are nothing more than what they are.
An indication and nothing more or less.
They prove nothing other than the test itself.
That they found 'something'.
They prove nothing more.
Any proof of something must pass many different tests, all designed to look at it from as many directions and ways as there are currently possible.

I used to work on the high end of Research and Development for an International Corporation.
Believe me, in developing a simple testing tool, it took months of research to decide on just how to proceed with the design.
And that had to be scrutinized by my peers in all the ways they knew how before even beginning on the actual building of it.
A test, research in one area does not in itself prove anything more than the test itself, and must pass many different views to even determine if the test results are valid to begin with.

Gender is viewed and reviewed by all of society, whether trans or cis, it is still viewed from each persons perceptions of their world view.
It's become political, it's in the spotlight for a few different reason right now in this country, the US, as well as quite a few other ones.
This has been a benefit and a curse at the same time. It has opened up more research. More results of tests than in the past.
But it has also left those test results to be taken out of context and used to define trans and even cis in ways the test were not designed to prove.
All because of personal perceptions.
We all have them, we have our individual perceptions of the world in front of us.
Biological tests that determine something should never be extrapolated into something else without valid indications that the extrapolation is indeed valid, yet that isn't proof of anything, other than there is a valid possible way to extrapolate that.
It is indeed sad that a tidbit of information can and does turn into something that is far from what the information actually is.
Which when scrutinized, is nothing more than a bit of information that may or may not be relevant and needs further testing and even more testing from different angles or ways to provide enough proof that the information is correct, let alone proving anything.
The sun is yellow, therefore anything that is yellow is the same as the sun and should be considered a part of it forever and ever.
Generalized statements of a bit of information without extensive test results are sometimes made and then in turn are taking as fact.
They are then nothing more than ill informed opinion, and that is a fact, even stating that is an opinion as it is not based in proven fact, itself.
Much of what is discussed is nothing more than opinions, and are sometimes mistaken as fact.
But opinions can and do lead to further testing from different points of view...
Premature conclusions without ALL the facts are opinions at best, ignorant at the worst, and truly evil if used against a person or group.

But we all have our opinions and that in turn leads to discussions which can lead to further research in pursuit of the truth, which facts help to support, but can never definitively make a truth the complete and actual truth.
We accept things as true when there is sufficient information for our own perceptions of our world view...
The truth is a very elusive thing in reality, but we pursue it for our need to find it, to understand our world views.
It would be much easier if we all had the same view, but that would limit the number of directions that we would use to test those views.
The Earth is flat.
What if we all had that same view, still?
Nobody would have tried to look at it as round, a preposterous view back in it's day.
The truth is out there,..
It is more than just a saying from a TV show, it is the backbone of science.

We discuss these things a lot, and sometimes they are taken as fact by some, which leads to heated discussions at times.
But stepping back and viewing even those can lead to a better understanding if we just stop to consider what we think of as facts, the truth.
Our world views sometimes need a view from further away to see the bigger picture.
A difficult thing to do when our opinions get in our way.
Ativan

[suzifrommd]

So if I (male-bodied) want to wear dresses and call myself Suzie, and I'm not hurting anyone, why should I have to get approval from some board of psychiatrists or neurologists or the CDC or whatever before I'm allowed to exist? 

Speaking as someone who DID wear dresses and call myself Suzi... 

The changes brought about by physical sex change interventions are irreversible and profound, whether brought about by hormones or surgery. If I were a surgeon or even an endo, I'd want to know that I'm not doing someone irreparable harm. So I understand why they want letters.

HOWEVER...

I think the letters should be limited to competence to give consent. The current situation where gatekeeping doctors substitute their judgment for ours is humiliating, patronizing, and serves to delay treatment and prolong misery unnecessarily.

[Beverly]

Suppose they go ahead with this, and develop a blood test or MRI screening or whatever to prove that someone is biologically trans.  Now society will have to admit that all the people who this test says are trans are legitimately trans.  But what about the "illegitimately trans" -- people who this test doesn't say are trans, but still feel like our assigned gender fits us like Quasimodo's tuxedo? 

Why are you obsessing over something that is not happening?  What is about it that worries you so much?

Do you doubt yourself?  Is expressing this idea a proxy for your worries? 

[kelly_aus]

So if I (male-bodied) want to wear dresses and call myself Suzie, and I'm not hurting anyone, why should I have to get approval from some board of psychiatrists or neurologists or the CDC or whatever before I'm allowed to exist?

Competence to actually consent to the treatment.

I love how people are prepared to ignore that doctors have to work within strict legal and ethical guidelines, as well as their own personal ethics. I know I could never prescribe hormones for someone without ensuring they were informed and competent to make the decision.

Chances are, there is a biological reason that people are trans. And as part of the research in finding it, they are probably going to discover that the apparent gender binary really is a fiction. Frankly, what I'm seeing is a rant from someone who is worried that should such a test be invented, would be told they could have no assistance, given the changes to trans treatment over the last few years, I don't see this being a legitimate concern.

Here's something for you, Asche, I barely make the diagnosis for GD under the current DSM and didn't make the diagnosis for GID under the previous edition of the DSM.. I started my transition 4 years ago, hormones included. According to all the 'literature' I'm not trans. However, an experienced gender therapist and I made an informed choice to move forward with transition.

[Myarkstir]

Speaking as someone who DID wear dresses and call myself Suzi... 

The changes brought about by physical sex change interventions are irreversible and profound, whether brought about by hormones or surgery. If I were a surgeon or even an endo, I'd want to know that I'm not doing someone irreparable harm. So I understand why they want letters.

HOWEVER...

I think the letters should be limited to competence to give consent. The current situation where gatekeeping doctors substitute their judgment for ours is humiliating, patronizing, and serves to delay treatment and prolong misery unnecessarily.

The reason medical personel (used this term to include all of them) act this way is exactly because they are unable to place a verdict based on reliable tangible facts. All they have to deal with is what we tell them and most of us will admit that we become very adept at making our pov sound good. It is a survival skill many transgenders learn quickly.

I am the first to say i hated to jump through hoops and run mazes like a lab rat, but i also understand why they are hesitant to give us what we want. They are simply unable to use any medical data. We are still exploring uncharted terrritory after 4 to 5 decades of work.

But every inch we take is less pain for future transgender people, who might not have to suffer what we went through. My life lead me to where i find myself not ablke to think of a man sexually to the point of nausea if i do. Maybe what i do now will prevent other future girls like me to live that, have a better life then me. So if doctors Could find a way to diagnose this then fine. Maybe they never will though.

[Carrie Liz]

Perhaps you should check out the following video:



This video was made by a woman who spent many years of her life living as a boy. She interviewed LGBT individuals and, for the first time, asked people to rate their sexuality on a scale of 1-100 rather than just giving them the binary options of "heterosexual" or "homosexual." And she was surprised to find that almost nobody rated themselves as 100s. The most common responses were in the 70-80 range.

Point being? Thinking of ANYTHING as a binary is merely a best-fit.

Showing that there is a biological base for it merely validates that people are the way that they are, and that efforts to change them are going against their very nature. It doesn't have to be binary. The science is what it is. The binary is human-imposed on top of that. And I'm willing to bet that just as there is a biological base for those who perfectly fit into the trans™ binary, there is also a biological base for those who don't... a mixture of hormones or partial exposure to T in utero or whatever. It doesn't mean that you're not "trans enough" or that your identity is somehow invalid, that's just a societal binary being imposed on you, and people (wrongly) trying to prove that they fit into that binary better because they're insecure about where they fit into it themselves.

[luna nyan]

As Kelly pointed out, health care professionals have to work within a medico legal framework.  You cannot provide treatment without at least a provisional diagnosis, and you have to have records of note to establish that.

This is for the protection of both the patient, and the treating doctor.  Even informed consent still requires a provisional diagnosis of some sort.

Yes, the world in general thinks in binary, but an informed professional knows better.

Research is important - whether or not it is relevant to our individual circumstances is another matter.  Knowing the cause for something doesn't necessarily affect the treatment.

[Edge]

But what about the "illegitimately trans" -- people who this test doesn't say are trans, but still feel like our assigned gender fits us like Quasimodo's tuxedo?  (Not to mention the people who don't feel like they're 100% male or 100% female.)  Now Science(tm) will have yet another Reason(tm) to those of us who don't fit as mentally ill people who need to just go to a shrink and get cured of our delusions.

Why are you calling people "illegitimately trans?" What makes you think this hypothetical test wouldn't say you're trans? What makes you think non-binary people wouldn't have non-binary brains? How exactly has the information we've acquired so far indicated that anyone is "illegitimate?" Let's say this test wouldn't indicate some trans people for whatever reason. Why exactly do you think neuroscientists, who have spent years studying brains and are very much aware of how complicated it is and how little we understand it would stop at something so black and white (in biology? Are you kidding?) as "these people are legitimate and these are not" instead of realizing that there is a lot more they don't know and researching it further?

But why should we have to have Science justify who we are?  Why should we have to justify what we do at all?

Some people really like knowledge and learning about the world. Personally, I find brains extremely fascinating and many other people do too. Being trans and a brain fanboy, I am of course also curious about why and how that happens.

I feel like obsessing over the question of the biological basis of trans-ness just buys into the cis world's idea that it's the cis gender police who get to decide whether we are "really" trans or not. (For some reason, this reminds me of the concept of "legitimate rape.")

Honestly, I get the impression that, right now, you're the one buying into the idea that anyone is "illegitimately" trans. I also think you're buying into and perpetuating the idea that biological processes always fit into black and white categories and that what we learn through science is all or nothing. I could be wrong though. I have a bit of bitterness towards these common misconceptions. The truth is far from it and these misconceptions are holding humanity back.

[Asche]

Now that I'm feeling less ranty and have had time to think, I realize that there were two ideas somewhere inside my rant.  (Granted, it's probably foolish of me to imagine that I'll be any clearer the second time around, but I never said I wasn't a fool.)

First, the frustration that we can't trust that our own hard-won knowledge about ourselves will be seen as valid, we have to have Science come along to give its stamp of approval.  (And maybe, for some of us, to assuage our own lingering doubts?)  Or that our existence -- that is, whether we really are who we feel we are (and not just delusional) -- is a matter for other people to debate.

Second, the binariness of the male-brain-in-female-body / female-brain-in-male-body paradigm.  It doesn't seem to leave any room for those of us who don't feel wholely male or wholely female.  I mean, this is, after all, the Non-Binary forum, so I must not be the only one who feels this way.

[ativan]

There are a lot of studies out there that have turned up solid evidence about binary not being as binary as people tend to believe.
Without looking for the non-binary aspect, they have come to better conclusions of binary research that indeed does show that non-binary is a larger group than the binary trans group.
It depends a lot on how you define these groups, as they don't have finite divisions, and they overlap a great deal to begin with.
To nitpick through information to justify an opinion isn't true to the information, only the opinion.
There are numerous studies being done right now, with people right in the middle of them concerning trans and very few of them address trans as solely binary.
If you read or listen to the news sources that are what we are used to getting informative news and information, be aware that almost all of it is owned by a select few and trans isn't something that they wish to promote, quite the opposite in many cases.
They feed just the right amount of information to appear to be concerned, but it is in most cases a ruse.
Look into scientific journals, the ones who the professionals look to for their research, the ones they publish the complete study or a link to a complete study.
Don't fall into the trap that has been set by those same kinds of people who tell you that science is ruining everything.
Opinions and polls never have the accuracy and be repeatable to be considered reliable information, information that can be used.
Without those scientific studies that have already been done, the trans community would still be in the 50's and this forum wouldn't be here.
The people who do these studies, scientists, don't want their stuff spread out in misinformed news by those who are only interested in their advertisers.
Many of these kinds of places need memberships to access the information and it is to pay for the publishing costs of this information.
I know of a person who does quite a bit of information mining and comes up with legitimate information that is timely and peer approved.
Beware of what you find in the mainstream, it isn't interested in the truth it is interested in selling itself, opinions based on nitpicking information for their own narrow needs, not the needs of the many, just enough to sell themselves, whore themselves out to anyone willing to listen.
Ativan

[suzifrommd]

Now that I'm feeling less ranty and have had time to think, I realize that there were two ideas somewhere inside my rant.  (Granted, it's probably foolish of me to imagine that I'll be any clearer the second time around, but I never said I wasn't a fool.)

First, the frustration that we can't trust that our own hard-won knowledge about ourselves will be seen as valid, we have to have Science come along to give its stamp of approval.  (And maybe, for some of us, to assuage our own lingering doubts?)  Or that our existence -- that is, whether we really are who we feel we are (and not just delusional) -- is a matter for other people to debate.

I agree, Asche. I think doctors and therapists want to feel necessary, so they feel a little queasy about the fact that THEY CAN'T DIAGNOSE US, since only we know whether we're trans. Some just embrace the suck, but others come up with elaborate but totally invalid tests to make them feel like they're doing something.

Second, the binariness of the male-brain-in-female-body / female-brain-in-male-body paradigm.  It doesn't seem to leave any room for those of us who don't feel wholely male or wholely female.  I mean, this is, after all, the Non-Binary forum, so I must not be the only one who feels this way.

I actually don't have a problem with the binary-ness of gender identity.

See, the thing is, having a male body and brain that's wired to have a female identity is going to FEEL differently to different people. It makes some people feel like a woman in a man's body, but others feel androgynous, agender, third-gender, genderfluid, and other non-binary experiences.

Does that make sense?

[Emmaline]

The biology side is the thin edge of the gender wedge, hon.  With it we can get accepted by the masses, get treatment, get insurance, get safe.
Once 'biologically trans' is across that line, it will pull all gender variants and non conformists with it on the acceptance bus.  This is why I educate people about intersex first, then transexual, then all other transgender types.  People seem to get it once the biology of intersex is in their heads as fact.

I personally don't think having a trans test is healthy myself.

[ativan]

There isn't a test. There isn't a test for many things related to neurology.
Well actually there is one small test. It consists of one question, 'What is your gender?'.
When I talk about studies and refer in it they do testing, it isn't a test for an individual.
It's a test that they do within a study... In and of itself, it isn't a test to determine a persons gender.
At the very best, there are standardized (somewhat) questions that some gender centers use, but they are not a test to determine a persons gender.
They are merely ones that just ask some basic questions that they are going to ask you anyways, and you get to answer them without the added pressure of a face to face question and answer time with them.
They are indicators that they use to help them, psychologists, to determine a best course of action needed to help you with the answer to the first test, 'what is your Gender?'

A lot of studies are out there, there are ongoing studies that consist of more or less this one question, a large sample questionnaire kind of study.
There are a lot of ways that the same question can be phrased, but essentially, that's about it.
There are a couple that I've seen from my friends on Facebook that are ongoing online questionnaire kinds of studies that ask questions that might appear to be a test, but you're not being graded, and there isn't a pass/fail kind of thing, they are large scale questionnaires.
They are large scale questionnaires to have a larger sample base, which makes the results more reliable, if they come to some conclusion based on the questions.

Some people will of course question the questions themselves and there will be the usual back and forth questions about any conclusions drawn.
This is how we learn to do better studies, it often takes quite a few tries before considering any conclusions to be valid enough to consider them.
Therapists are not equipped with a test, they are not there to judge your decision, they are there to guide you with your decision to do something about it if you are asking them to.
Ask a therapist what your gender is and they will throw the question right back at you.
If they are trying to tell you that your gender is not what you think it is, run.
But a lot of times, especially if your not entirely sure and have questions about how you fit with gender, if you are questioning where do you fit in the trans world, they might give you options based on what you say.
That's a good example of being honest as much as you can, with a therapist.
You get out of it what you put into it.

In the past, there were skeptical therapists and psychologist, but those days are gone.
If you have a therapist who is skeptical of you being trans, run away, they are ill informed and of no use to you or anyone else.

Most studies that are question based are becoming more specific in their questions and in analyzing their data.
That's the most difficult part, they get as many answers as there are people and if left to their own words, every answer will be different.
Most of these newer studies are trying to define in a quantitative way, just how many and of what kinds of diversity there is in the trans communities.
There is more and more grant money coming in for further studies, they are finding out that indeed we are a diverse group, far more than what was first thought.
They are trying to quantify us, to be able to tell the rest of the world we are here and are not going away, no matter how hard Bachmann wants to pray us away...

Biological studies are confirmations in a generalized way for now.
They are one piece of the puzzle, nothing more.
They are not definitive by themselves, but they can and do confirm some conclusions based on questionnaire studies.
It's a way of pulling the information together from as many directions as we have available.
There isn't any one study that can definitively give you last say, the finalized truth.
The closer research comes to a truth, farther away it becomes, it's the nature of it.
The more we know, the more questions we have to ask, better informed questions.
None of it is definitive and the last say, the final test to determine any one thing, it is simply more information, a piece of the puzzle.

All research is this way, for everything we have questions about.
The further we look into space the more we realize it is bigger and has more diversity than we first imagined.
Gender studies are the same way.

Your answer to the question of what is your gender is correct and can change for you, the better informed you are.
Without these kinds of studies, tests, they have only our word about it and there is arguing within the community at times of who is this and that.
The best thing we can do is to help each other and stop that kind of old and uninformed kind of arguing or having these differences of opinion, and that's' all they are, a difference of opinion.
Some of those opinions are based on nitpicking some information and presenting it as a fact. Ignore that crap.
Instead, embrace the idea that we are all trans and need to help each other, a much easier thing to do than to argue a single point to it's death.

There isn't a test to determine your gender. Never has, probably never will.
If they ever do come up with one, it will be based on years and years of research and studies, which do have tests for singular things within a much larger studies.
So relax, there isn't a test and only the evils of extreme right wing religious fanatics are trying to take something away from you.
These are the enemies of not only us, but the LGBT community at large.
They have been pretty good at dispersing false information in their efforts to divide and conquer their perceived enemy, us.
There have always been idiots in this world, always will be. Ignore them, they are dying off by their own prejudices.
We need only to keep an eye on them to make sure they don't take advantage of the population they are lying to about us.
They have no studies, there isn't a group of scientists who are doing research for them, they have a sham of misinformation, almost all of it old and dismissed a long time ago by the current researchers today, who know we are here and are finding useful information that can help us find and keep ourselves in society without the bigotry and other political bull->-bleeped-<- that goes on, even within our community.

It's information, how you use it determines how it is perceived.
Use it by nitpicking out only the info that suites your needs does nothing for the information it only does something for the opinions based on partial information.
That's gossip, opinions based on information taken out of context and a story of woe weaved around it.

I just tend to call it bull->-bleeped-<- and move on to the important stuff, the information as a whole, the combining of information that completes the picture.
Having a piece of the puzzle and pretending you know the whole picture as a truth is foolish and it appears as such.

The more you know, the more informed your ideas and conclusions you'll have.
A single piece is often the chicken little sky is falling kind of reactions.

I think we can do better ourselves by being better informed, but that's up to you...
Ativan

[Yarngeek]

You know, I think that in the end there will never be a scientific way to determine who gets to be trans and who doesn't. People have tried. We've found that things like hormones in the womb have an influence for example. But in the end I think that the problem is that there isn't a solid definition of what being a man or a woman is. Anyone who has an absolute solid definition other than "It's what you identify as" will tend to be wrong. For example all the people who think you can't be a man if you have no penis, that's been shown by millions of non-op trans men to be false. Also if gender is determined by a set of traits, then should we all start considering butch women to be men and femme men to be women? Obviously not. They should be considered what they consider themselves.

[Satinjoy]

Well, its my turn now.

First, it greives me deeply to see my good friend Ativan's bitterness on the religious right.  50 purges later, in this specific issue of trans, I feel they are the religious wrong and have aligned themselves with the pharisitic element of Christ's day.  If I thought I was excluded since I am trans, you would see this mind implode on itself with desperate consequences.  I am conservative, and I believe we are not excluded.  If there are denominations that do, so be it.  Some conservatives deny the living Christ and His Spirit can indwell and manifest in us in ways that are gifts and unexplainable otherwise.  IMO, because that manifestation happens with me, they live in error, and they grieve the One who died for them to be with Him.

Nuff said there.  Wanna get me angry?  Preach exclusion and delusion.  Short circuit the heart of God through misunderstanding.

But these items are typically addressed and addressed very well in the Christianity forum. 

Second-   Insurance.  Mine will not cover gender dysphoria.  I quote:" they don't want to cover hormones or surgery for some guy who wants to run around in a dress."  Incendiary words.
So I pay out of pocket for dysphoria shrink therapy and for my e-cyp shots.  We code other things for Spiro and Finesteride, to get that in under the radar, even oral estrodial can be coded to hormone imbalance, but its done out of compassion by my endo for my condition.  I am, in fact, discriminated against for being trans, in a way that is harmful and evil.

My endo does not buy in on the DES origination of trans.  But, he is the one that saw through my bare midriff, my request for estrogen to treat BPH (Can anyone say desperation here),  and the obvious angst that was apparent at that appointment.  He sent me to the shrink, for the letter.

The shrink doesn't have an opinion on DES, he does not think it matters.  He thinks I matter.  So, after 4 months of what - testing? validation?  Education to consequences? He then wrote the letter.  The letter says that I quote "do not fit the transsexual diagnosis", goes on to give a diagnosis that is controversial in this community and I will not speak of it, (he said he used it to justify the hormones and cover everyone legally) and by the end of the letter it simply states that " it is in the best interest of the patient that he be given competent and guided hormone treatment through your (the endo's) office."

And here I am with serums well over 300 and loving it.

Bottom line:  the comfort and well being of the patient.  Not conditional on anything but that.  No RLE, just 4 months of therapy.

But, the endo, based on my reaction to estrogen, believes  that trans women have estrogen receptors in their brains, and males that react negatively to estrogen as in cancer treatment, simply do not.  Fact?  Nobody is drilling my brain to prove it.  But the reactions speak volumes.

THird- I am a DES son.  Fact.  2nd and 3rd trimester heavy exposure, first, unknown.  I believe but it is an opinion- that I have a DES formed skeleton, endo system, and central nervous system.  Nerve responses to touch have always and forever been interpreted in my mind as female responses.  I have nerve endings in places I am not sure others have the same sensitivity for.  I am not therefor constructed typically.  Yet the higher cognitive functions, social and in other ways, are not typical female.  So what we have used to be called a freak until I found this forum.  Agony in the real world.  Now, not only acceptable, but powerful.  Yet it can be lonely and painful.

The DES exposure figured in this:  those that could not accept me as trans based on my mind, do accept me as trans and medically in need of hormones because of the DES birth anomaly (never defect, please).  It frankly is a big part of saving the marriage since it assigned responsibility to a medical issue and not a selfish decision that does not take my wife's needs into account.

So, whatever leverage we have that can help with acceptance... I'll take it.  Interpreted selfishly, rationalizing, whatever, I need it, I will misinterpret it and use it for survival.  Or interpret it right, for survival. Psychologically true trans?  Fighting words.  Poison.  Delusional?  How hurtful.  But plant that seed in the mind of a transgendered person and you can keep hurting them and hurting them and hurting them.....

Trump everything with unconditional love.  Shame them with beauty.  Learn to live free, and if not, live anyway.

Nails out, hair waiting, embracing all here, of any trans uniqueness that you have, unconditionally.

Blessings.

[Taka]

trans-ness is probably biologically determined, as it is a biological kind of treatment that works, for most trans people. so why not let scientists go out and look for all the different causes of it, or ways it is expressed in this nature that we are part of. it's interesting to find proof that there are other forms of biological non-binary-ness in humans than all the differerent forms of intersex that we currently know of.

scientists are likely to say that if this is a biological thing, then that probably is as well, so let's try to find the causes of that too.

[Kaelin]

Scientists are human, but relative to the general population, a research-driven peer-reviewed process tends to keep science from "overreaching" and saying your particular identity is wrong.  There are variables that correlate with binary gender, but they don't prove/determine gender, and science does a relatively good job of understanding this principle.  It may mean science won't necessarily be convinced, but there will be doctors ready to go beyond conventional treatment if there is good reason to believe it may work -- science can't make new discoveries unless it is willing to "experiment" in this way.  Mileage varies in terms of treatment, unfortunately, but short of informed consent for everything, it is probably the system that grants maximal access, and it is a system that rigorously tests the efficacy or safety of various treatments.  Cleaning-up diagnosis/vetting and treatment would help, though.

[Edge]

Science doesn't need to be convinced. We already know that biology isn't as binary as people think. It makes sense that brains, being biological and extremely complex organs, are also not as binary as people think. The rest of the world just needs to catch up and stop teaching things that are already disproven.
Also, science doesn't work like that at all. We don't go "oh this thing that happens doesn't fit with what we know of the world, so clearly it's wrong." We go "oh we discovered this, but this still happens. Why?"

[Paige]

I believe but it is an opinion- that I have a DES formed skeleton, endo system, and central nervous system.  Nerve responses to touch have always and forever been interpreted in my mind as female responses.  I have nerve endings in places I am not sure others have the same sensitivity for.  I am not therefor constructed typically.

Hi Satinjoy,
Your comment on nerve endings would make an interesting thread.  I've often wondered if I have an atypical nervous system and nerve endings.  It would be interesting to know if others here have similar sensations.
Take care,
Paige