Transwomen with Beards

[Shana A]

Whoa whoa Whoa I never 'advocated they be mistreated in society'.  I just said I would not want my mother to be put in that position where she has no clue what gender this person is and is sharing the bathroom with them.

There needs to be unisex single bathrooms available for anyone who needs them, for any reason. Whether they are trans or non-trans.

I mean - violence against women is no myth. This person could be a transwoman and this person could very well also be a serial rapist or even killer. There's just no way to determine that on a glance.

And violence against transwomen and transmen is rampant. If I were a woman with a beard, I wouldn't feel comfortable in either mens or womens public restrooms.

Zythyra

[mallard500]

Good grief Mallard, the Melissa's example is someone with a full beard and moustache, that's pretty unambigous to most people... Its not a case of interpretation here. Taking one case and then extending to something else entirely is a definite case of straw argument.

If your doing it at work, people will be informed, quite different.

In society in general, I'd minimally expect carry letters if that person's trying for the restroom (not even sure she would get it) because some people will complain to security for sure.

As for the security argument, I've got two 5 foot tall female friends who were assaulted and can barely tolerate going outside the house, let alone men in restroom. Even if that person's the sweetest person on earth, how could those women know that?

Like I said, the answer to this is to create unisex restroom stalls accessible from a corridor. That way, everybody's satisfied. Parents with their children would also be happy with that.

This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).

I'm not calling you a bigot, and truly apologize for the perception, but I honestly do find the argument itself to be skirting the issue.  This was actually something that Tink had said, when she was responding to you.

And yes, the world would be much better off with Unisex restrooms - a much better situation for everyone!   

I totally sympathize with your friends who were assaulted, but the problem with violence, and the understandable fear that women have, is not about beards - it's about what's between the legs.  The women at my work don't care what trips their radar in IDing a person as Trans; it can be the voice, the height, (in this case, the beard obviously)... the result is the same - they are concerned because they view the person as a man in a women's restroom.  I DO understand the concern, but it's not a reason to dismiss the person - good grief, we don't even know if this person DOES use women's bathrooms...

Goddess only knows why a tranwoman would wear a full beard... I'm just saying it's hypocritical of us to use the same fears and arguments against this person that are used against all of us.

Scott

[Tay]

I honestly have never seen, Nero, why washrooms are gender- or sex-segregated.

It's entirely possible to build floor-to-ceiling stalls. Why not do so?  Is there something pervy about washing hands with a person of the opposite gender/sex?  Seriously.  I don't see what it would be.

I have NEVER seen the genitalia of an opposite-gender/sex person in the washroom.  Ever.  And my father made me go to the men's room with him until I was 10. 

What is wrong with society that we fear things to this level?

[mallard500]

<snip>
This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).

BTW Keira, I was actually responding to a post by Tink, where she was resonding to you, and using the bathroom argument, saying that:

"Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  Roll Eyes:  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard. "

I'm not of the habit of accusing allies of bigotry, as it's one of the worst insults I can think of.      Again, my apologies if you thought my comments were directed at you - they were in reference to the comments made by someone else.


Thanks!

Scott

[Nero]

I honestly have never seen, Nero, why washrooms are gender- or sex-segregated.

It's entirely possible to build floor-to-ceiling stalls. Why not do so?  Is there something pervy about washing hands with a person of the opposite gender/sex?  Seriously.  I don't see what it would be.

I have NEVER seen the genitalia of an opposite-gender/sex person in the washroom.  Ever.  And my father made me go to the men's room with him until I was 10. 

What is wrong with society that we fear things to this level?

Because there are pervs who will go to extremes to assault women. Women are vulnerable to assault. It's just the way the world has always been.

[RebeccaFog]

I'm male bodied and I'm terrified of being in a men's room with drunken men.

[Jeannette]

My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.

Things are a wee different for MTF's.  A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache.  But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.

This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it.  This is real life not a bloody circus.

[Sheila]

Melissa, you sure started something here. LOL These postings sure tell where people stand in life. We are all differtent, that is why it is called diversity. I have my feelings of predjudice and it looks like there are a lot of you that do to. We all have them, that is what human nature is all about. We all see things in a different perspective and that is all right. Not only do we have our bodies that are so different our minds and the way we see things are very different. I think this whole post is getting a little out of hand and I hope someone would put an end to it. It is very evident that we all don't see eye to eye on some things. To me this is very negative to Susans and hope that it ends.
Sheila

[Rachael]

My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.

Things are a wee different for MTF's.  A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache.  But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.

This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it.  This is real life not a bloody circus.

failures at reply

I act tomboyish, and dress in a tomboyish manner, and i pass perfectly fine, infact i pass better, as im more relaxed and not stressing about being read. Baggy jeans and a hoodie, and i never get sir'd.

[Luc]

That's right, this is real life. Which means, of course, that we must realize that there are actual repercussions for the things we do. If you insult a woman who can't help her facial hair or musculature or shoe size, it could very well hurt her. Think about the times you've been criticized for one reason or another, be it pertaining to trans issues or otherwise. Hurts, doesn't it? In a circus, folks, everything needs to look pretty so the people will ooo and aaaa and clap and send all their friends to pay exorbitant admission costs. In real life, well... we've all got just one life to live (unless you're of the Hindu persuasion), and we should all, as individuals, have the right to live it as we see fit. Let's not persecute others for their choices to exercise their freedom as individuals.

Dino

[melissa90299]

My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.

Things are a wee different for MTF's.  A GG can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having a moustache.  But unless a MTF is very passable, she will not be perceived and accepted as female if she walks around with a beard or acts tomboyish.

This bearded woman needs to get real and act in a way she wants people to treat her. You're a woman, Ok, then act, dress and look like one & then we'll talk about it.  This is real life not a bloody circus.

failures at reply

I act tomboyish, and dress in a tomboyish manner, and i pass perfectly fine, infact i pass better, as im more relaxed and not stressing about being read. Baggy jeans and a hoodie, and i never get sir'd.

I can't imagine that a young person in baggy jeans and a hoodie, male or female, would ever get called sir.

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 04:39:58 PMFor purposes of my scenario, this person does want to be granted access to woman only spaces, this person in my scenario clocks male 100%, yet feels she is entitled to admission to women only spaces. I am still on the fence as to whether or not a person like this should be given access. I mean where (and how) do you draw the line? Or do you draw a line at all?

[Nero]

Melissa, you sure started something here. LOL These postings sure tell where people stand in life. We are all differtent, that is why it is called diversity. I have my feelings of predjudice and it looks like there are a lot of you that do to. We all have them, that is what human nature is all about. We all see things in a different perspective and that is all right. Not only do we have our bodies that are so different our minds and the way we see things are very different. I think this whole post is getting a little out of hand and I hope someone would put an end to it. It is very evident that we all don't see eye to eye on some things. To me this is very negative to Susans and hope that it ends.
Sheila

I agree with you on some points, Sheila. But I don't think these uncomfortable topics are negative to Susan's.
Susan's is a place for support AND to discuss trans relevant issues. Melissa posted a topic that obviously concerns her.
Posting a bulletin of 'forbidden topics' is what would be very negative to Susan's IMO. Susan's is the place I go to discuss all trans issues. It's a second home to me. The people here are genuine and I'd rather come here for opinions or advice than anywhere else. I don't want to be forced to go elsewhere because some members here can't handle sensitive or uncomfortable topics.

That's right, this is real life. Which means, of course, that we must realize that there are actual repercussions for the things we do. If you insult a woman who can't help her facial hair or musculature or shoe size, it could very well hurt her. Think about the times you've been criticized for one reason or another, be it pertaining to trans issues or otherwise. Hurts, doesn't it? In a circus, folks, everything needs to look pretty so the people will ooo and aaaa and clap and send all their friends to pay exorbitant admission costs. In real life, well... we've all got just one life to live (unless you're of the Hindu persuasion), and we should all, as individuals, have the right to live it as we see fit. Let's not persecute others for their choices to exercise their freedom as individuals.

Dino

People are cruel. There's no sugar-coating it. Of course everyone has the right to live how they want or to go out as a woman with a full beard. But it's also our right not to like it. Being trans does not exclude us from having our own opinions, likes, and dislikes. I'm not going to pretend to agree with things I don't.

[RebeccaFog]

I find this to be one of the better discussions.  It took right off and it hits the topic from every direction. It is based on a very simple premise which is close to everyone trans or not. It shows a great range of opinions.

It's good to have people discuss and talk out subjects such as this.  I like it better than some of the other topics because it hasn't turned seriously bitter.  Strong opinions no attacks.

[Dorothy]

A full beard and calls himself a transwoman?  Lol what planet is he from?  I refuse to call someone like that a she.  Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.

i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >

I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.

[Sheila]

The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don't mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila

[Tay]

A full beard and calls himself a transwoman?  Lol what planet is he from?  I refuse to call someone like that a she.  Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.

i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >

I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.

So every woman should conform to your ideas?  They cannot rebel against societal expectations?  *headdesk*

If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change.  Ever.

A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees.  I'm deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as "he".

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM

The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don't mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila

So no drag kings or drag queens?  No people making a statement?  No costume parties?

Sorry.  But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.

[Rachael]

i have to agree, beard on a woman is nutty... sorry, but want to pass as female? get yourself a razor...
society wont just change because you want it to.

R

[melissa90299]

I guess I should put an end to the charade of this being about a fictional person, in fact, there is a person out there who demands access to women only spaces while presenting in every way as a male. There may come a time when I am the gatekeeper and have to decide whether or not this person should be granted access. Maybe the duck rule should apply, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, it is a duck.

Funny, at first, I thought this person was an FtoM, (I heard someone mention he was trans) I thought to myself, "Wow! He really clocks guy 100%, that is amazing." Then my thought was "What is he doing in a woman's meeting?"

Later I was told this person IDs as female, quite frankly, I was shocked.

[Dorothy]

A full beard and calls himself a transwoman?  Lol what planet is he from?  I refuse to call someone like that a she.  Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.

i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >

I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.

So every woman should conform to your ideas?  They cannot rebel against societal expectations?  *headdesk*

If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change.  Ever.

A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees.  I\'m deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as \"he\".

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM

The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don\'t mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila

So no drag kings or drag queens?  No people making a statement?  No costume parties?

Sorry.  But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.

There are places for drag kings, drag queens, women with beards.  We both know where those places are.

[melissa90299]

A full beard and calls himself a transwoman?  Lol what planet is he from?  I refuse to call someone like that a she.  Peeps like him is the reason society sees us as insane and pervs.

i would refer her to the closest sanitarium. >

I would help Katia to put him in a mad house or follow Jeannettes idea and find him a job in a circus where he belongs.

So every woman should conform to your ideas?  They cannot rebel against societal expectations?  *headdesk*

If every woman lies down and shuts up and refuses to be different, then nothing will change.  Ever.

A woman is a woman based on self-identity, not what you or anyone else sees.  I\'m deeply offended by you referring to this hypothetical woman as \"he\".

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:10 PM

The reason I said that it should be put to an end is that I have noticed some flaming going on. If we all act like adults I don\'t mind. This is my opinion. I would sure hate to see people dislike others just because of this post.
I also agree that a person who is female in this society should look female and a male should look like a male. Now, I have said that I have my prejudices and that is one of them.
Sheila

So no drag kings or drag queens?  No people making a statement?  No costume parties?

Sorry.  But if a person asks me to treat them as a woman, I trust their self-identity better than my own identification of them.

There are places for drag kings, drag queens, women with beards.  We both know where those places are.

Perhaps she should be treated as a woman. I would first hand her a razor and tweezers, then refer her to my laser specialist.

Really, how can anyone take a person like this seriously?