Transwomen with Beards

[RebeccaFog]

Pleeeaase button up your pants.  your driving me crazy 

in a good way or bad way?   

Good 

Ironically, I think I'm close to seeing your beard.     (Please understand this reference)

[Rachael]

did that combat vet who presented mixed gender have a beard?

if not, IRELEVANT!

and for the point of this topic, a beard is a MALE physical symbol, if the person doesnt want to get rid of it, then thier dysphoria cannot be as strong as they claim....
R

[Laurry]

Pleeeaase button up your pants.  your driving me crazy 

in a good way or bad way?  

Good 

Ironically, I think I'm close to seeing your beard.     (Please understand this reference)

lol!  that would be, er, somewhat impossible 

So does this mean you shave YOUR beard?  Guess that means they are not talking about you, eh?



After reading ALL of this...yeah, it took a while...I am amazed at the amazing leaps of logic taken by some to support their viewpoints, and saddened by the blantant closedmindedness (is that a real word?) of others.

Since appararently this is a real person, and may potentially cause a very difficult situation to arise for an active member here at Susan's, a little support seems to be called for.

Melissa, as uncomfortable as it sounds, and as permitted by company policies and guidelines, a discussion with this person may be required.  Accept her as the female she claims to be.  Explain some of the concerns of the other co-workers in a general manner, and also the concerns of the company (who doesn't want its staff to quit or be slapped with a lawsuit).  As I doubt she is completely ignorant of the situation, politely ask that if she were in your place, how would she handle it?

This will answer a lot of the questions, and allow you to make the best decision, (even if it is not the most popular).

Situations like this make me very happy I never opted for the Management route in my career.  Best of luck to you, sweetie.

.......Laurry

[Rachael]

sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R

[RebeccaFog]

sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R

     Rachael,

     Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?

No offense meant.  Just asking.


Rebis
   

[Rachael]

sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R

     Rachael,

     Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?

No offense meant.  Just asking.


Rebis
   

i honestly dont know....
i do however feel that a person who identifies as female, yet maintains facial hair, has somert up with thier grey matter...

R

[RebeccaFog]

sorry, but sometimes closedmindedness, and open mindedness cannot cover a woman with a beard, by all means, do it in private, glue one on for all you like, but females dont have that amount of facial hair in this culture. if you want to do that, go elsewhere. the world doenst revolve around you....
R

     Rachael,

     Are you quite serious, or are you playing with us?

No offense meant.  Just asking.


Rebis
   

i honestly dont know....
i do however feel that a person who identifies as female, yet maintains facial hair, has somert up with thier grey matter...

R

Someday, when you're a policewoman, you may be called on to protect such a person.

[Rachael]

when im an officer, ill do my duty to protect someone, that doesnt require me to agree with how they choose to live...

R

[RebeccaFog]

when im an officer, ill do my duty to protect someone, that doesnt require me to agree with how they choose to live...

R

   I agree with you.  However, it will be more difficult to perform your duty if you have a sort of repulsion for those who are different.  I would suspect that you will meet many different people, some even more disturbing than a woman with a beard.

[Rachael]

i am allowed to dissagree with what i want, when on duty, im the law, and i uphold it, regardless of someones choices. its victim and assailant. end of story.
i leave my personal opinions in the duty room.

R

[RebeccaFog]

i am allowed to dissagree with what i want, when on duty, im the law, and i uphold it, regardless of someones choices. its victim and assailant. end of story.
i leave my personal opinions in the duty room.

R

No problem from me.  I agree with you.

I'm just saying a job like that must be tough.  Having to meet so many different people under circumstances of duress.  I'd rather work in a toll booth.

[Sophia]

<snip *material used as proof* snip>

===========================================================================

So that canard has been put to rest.

You have only proven that it is used interchangably for layman's terms. Please provide a scientific source to show that the scientific community (specifically the biology community) uses gender and sex interchangably and the word female for both. Especially since it was the scientific community I asked about specifically.

Also dictionary.com is a terrible source, for future reference. I'm glad you pulled several others so I didn't have to disregard your material.

I never thought I would have to prove on a TG forum that female refers to gender as well as sex.

I never thought I'd have to hassle someone to actually back their assertions over several posts before they actually bothered to put the effort in. Better late then never though. I'd also like to point out that you only established that gender and sex are used interchangably when it comes to layman's terms. You have proven nothing for the biology community. My expectation is that you will provide in your next post or concede the point.

I'm sorry I don't just take your word for it but in debate proof is a requirement, not an option.

As well, the idea of a religious fundamentalist who clings to archaic and bizarre (in my view) religious beliefs would OTOH adopt the beliefs of new age genderqueers is preposterous.

You'll have to actually prove this. Selective usage of Christian law, for instance, is very much in effect. There are many Christians who only take the part of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality and ignore every single other part (like the parts that denote that one can not mix two fabrics in their clothing).

The idea that someone picked up on the archaic and bizarre (in my view as well) religious beliefs in a piecemeal fashion and happened to avoid picking up the ones that would endanger their gender identity is not only logically sound considering the patchwork quilt quality of religions today but almost unsurprising. Personal interests have always influenced faith. Why would one acknowledge a law of faith that hurt them when they can selectively ignore laws in their religion?

How much of a study of religion have you truly made? Christianity has absorbed beliefs from hundreds of pagan faiths and old cults, removing chunks of the beliefs already present. Most religions have this eclectic nature. Even strict religions like Islam went through a heavy conversion phase and absorbed other religious beliefs to enable conversion of people during the early decades of the faith's growth.

Sorry, someone like that is really confused and needs intense therapy.

Unless you're of the opinion that someone who is religious needs intense therapy I don't really see how your comment is relevant or all that true. If it doesn't reduce one's functionality then they require no therapy or treatment.

And no you aren't sorry. Insincere apologies are wholly unnecessary here. If you're going to share your opinion then do so. Don't try to lessen the offense you think you might cause by pretending to be apologetic for having your opinion. I may not agree with you but I'm not offended by our different views.

I doubt that in the real world anyone ike that exists even with six billion people on this planet.

I'd ask you to prove that, but no one can prove a negative claim. So you made an assertion that you can't possibly prove.

I find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.

Is this a typo? Certainly, it must be.

It really isn't. Is it so odd to you that someone could disagree with you?

Now, I am expected to believe that someone who clings to archaic beliefs like this on one hand...

In Leviticus 19:27-28 we are commanded:

"(27) You shall not round the edge of your head, nor shall you destroy the edge of your beard. (28) And you shall not make a cutting for the dead in your flesh, nor shall you make a written tattoo upon you; I am YHWH."

In these two verses we are forbidden to make four types of "cuttings":

1) Cutting the head or hair
2) Cutting the face or beard
3) Cutting the flesh
4) Inscribing writing on the flesh

What precisely is forbidden by these four commandments? Are we required to grow long Elvis-style side locks? Or Rabbanite-style "pe'os"? To understand these four commandments we must consider the meaning of the words in their immediate context as well as the broader context of the entire Tanach and the ancient world in which the Torah was given.

<snip>

And here's where we stop. You're using logic to analyze faith. Its fine and dandy if you're debating the validity of the faith or what the rules mean. But that's not what your garden variety average religious fundie does.

Do you honestly believe that a fundie would analyze that verse using logic, past languages, history, and psychology?

Most average fundamentalists follow these rules without knowing why they exist, what reason they were made for and even what the rules mean. Heck, these same people use the Leviticus ban against man lying with man as he would with a woman to condemn lesbian sex, which involves no men at all!

Your analysis is wonderful but you are being wholly unrealistic to expect any fundamentalist to even listen to such an analysis much less do it themselves. I can not believe, even slightly, that all of them would realize that its bans regarded methods of mourning and not simply take it literally.

There's an analysis of the Leviticus ban I mentioned before that actually links that ban to temple prostitution and not homosexual sex in general between men. And yet the fundamentalists just closed their ears and made "la la la" sounds. What really makes you think they are going to only do that in relation to one section of their religious law and not in regards to all of it?

...would, on the other hand, believe that someone presenting as a man to the point of wearing a beard and presenting as a man outwardly in virtually every way, would demand that she be accepted and referred to as a woman.

And yet such insane inconsistencies do exist in every religion, with all religious rules, and with lots of religious people. The fact that they boggle your mind does not mean they don't exist. The fact that neither of us would do something like that doesn't mean other people wouldn't.

When you're dealing with religious beliefs, logical analysis rarely comes into play, and human nature has a field day with people's behavior.

Posted on: August 07, 2007, 03:16:25 PM

Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.

I am not  judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.

Many Religions defy logic to begin with. Why would someone who clings without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws see that doing so and accepting gender-bending would be illogical? I'm amazed you haven't accounted for that yet.

[amberctm]

did that combat vet who presented mixed gender have a beard?

if not, IRELEVANT!

and for the point of this topic, a beard is a MALE physical symbol, if the person doesnt want to get rid of it, then thier dysphoria cannot be as strong as they claim....
R

When you go to war and kill for your own point of veiw, others point of veiw, and then for a point of veiw you may not even agree with, in which, may, or may not make that situation better. the you take a life and your innocence is lost, with no visible sign of returning(not saying it never will). Then dealing with you trans issues, trying desperatly to start new. But that little thing you lost during your days as a soldier plays on you constantly. Moving on becomes impossible. tring to find a balance is your only hope.

So, as you see your veiw is a little narrow in the sense that, not every thing is what it seems. Dysphoria is only thing you can conclude. But you don't know the unseen.

~M

And yes that Combat Veteran somtimes had a beard.

[louise000]

I find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.

amish?

Yes, Amish men are required by the Ordnung to wear beards, but only after they marry. Moustaches are not allowed, because in olden times soldiers used to wear moustaches and the Amish want nothing to do with military force. Unmarried men do not grow beards. The Ordnung is a set of rules which are based on Amish traditions inspired by the Bible.
On no account are Amish women permitted beards (...joke !).
Louise

[Rachael]

actually, ive been to war. although i dont know if i ever killed anyone  (british reserves did a tour in A'stan in 05)
and someone having a beard isntsomething thats effected by ptsd, or experiences, thats bloody excuses...
narrow minded or just one person seeing clearly through the layers of flounceing and 'oh if they want to its thier choice' stuff.

heres a little thing to think about.
im a girl, when i started to grow hair on my face, (what little i got) i hated it, and wanted it to go away, because girls dont have hairy faces....

nuf said.

R

[RebeccaFog]

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

   This is a reminder about what this thread was initially about.  I believe that the heart of the post is

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react?

    Sometimes, there is a little too much contention in this conversation.  I understand that everyone has a different opinion, however, we should remember to get along nicely.  This message is not directed at or toward any one person in particular.  It is meant to be a reminder that it would be best to stick to the initial topic as closely as possible.

    We can not expect to change someone's opinion or point of view.  We sometimes have to settle for describing our own point of view and hoping that we somehow influenced others.

   I'll stop posting my own opinion as a citizen.  I'll keep reading the thread and only speak up as a moderator in cases where I fear there may be bad blood developing.


Love,

Rebis

[amberctm]

actually, ive been to war. although i dont know if i ever killed anyone  (british reserves did a tour in A'stan in 05)
and someone having a beard isntsomething thats effected by ptsd, or experiences, thats bloody excuses...
narrow minded or just one person seeing clearly through the layers of flounceing and 'oh if they want to its thier choice' stuff.

heres a little thing to think about.
im a girl, when i started to grow hair on my face, (what little i got) i hated it, and wanted it to go away, because girls dont have hairy faces....

nuf said.

R

That is your own oppinion.

Here is something to think about. Go to the battle field in Iraq and see your battle buddy get blown to bits, while being ambushed by a group of insurgents hiding in an ally-way. try to shoot staight not to hit little kids running from the explosion, and trying desperatly to give you buddy morphine injections so he feels no pain while crossing over in a place so far from home. Then talk to me about bloody excuses.

[Sophia]

You really missed my point. Sophia created a construct that, in my mind, is not credible.

Its not credible because you've made several truly unrealistic assumptions about religion, religious fundamentalists and human nature.

You assume the following:

1: A fundamentalist will logically analyze his or her or hir faith in a way that allows them to understand why the laws exist, what the truly mean and avoid mistakes in carrying them out.

2: Religions are stable and do not change.

3: Fundamentalists will not selectively adopt and ignore religious laws from their religions based on personal interest and feelings

There are likely more unrealistic (imho) assumptions you have made regarding this example but those are the only ones I've seen come into play now. For that reason you find my example incredible. But since I consider your assumptions to be completely unrealistic and in some cases beyond the pale of credibility, I can not share your view.

A person who would cling to outmoded, barbaric and archaic beliefs while OTOH embracing the most extreme new age gender-bending most likely does not exist

Based only on your assumptions, which I find to be wrong and unrealistic.

and if a person like that does exist, he/she likely would need intense therapy.

Why? Therapy is for mental situations that impair functionality and when its either requested by the patient or required to protect society. Are religious fundamentalists impaired? Do they want to be fixed? Are they a threat to the well being of humanity? Is someone that applies an illogical viewpoint to their religion and gender identity impaired? Do they want to be fixed? Are they a threat to the well being of humanity?

Let's think about what actually constitutes a need for therapy before we throw around that accusation, shall we?

I could say that I am Mary Queen of Scots but that wouldn't make it true. Most people call that insanity.

And yet, you would still think you're Mary, Queen of Scots. And that person in question would still think they were a woman and therefore meets the requirements for having GID.

Plenty of people would call us insane for thinking we're women on the inside. And yet so many of us find it so difficult to accept other people's abnormal mental states. It would seem almost hypocritical if it weren't human nature to reject what is different.

As far as motives, you have to ask the creator of the fictitious construct i.e. Sophia.

My motive was to establish a fictional construct that could possibly occur in a real world environment and would meet the requirements to be a woman who would be fine with growing a beard and still be a woman. Shockingly enough, even the presence of a beard does not prevent one from self identifying as a woman. Its merely considered to be a very masculine characteristic and even ugly on women. But it is only a secondary characteristic and one that does occur in GG's too.

There are some girls that can't get SRS for health reasons or because they can't afford it and have to come to terms with having a penis for the rest of their life. Are they less of a woman because they came to terms with that?

An even better example then the religion one is someone who has a skin sensitivity issue and can't get electrolysis, laser or even shave without being in extreme pain. That would mean that said person would be stuck with a beard, and would fit the example at the beginning of this thread while still being a woman.

If the example at the beginning of this thread was a real person, were they asked about why they had a beard? Or was assumptions merely made?

Posted on: August 07, 2007, 03:55:08 PM

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

Actually I have a question that didn't occur to me before. Did this person (if you indeed met a person that ID'd themselves as a transwoman and had a goatee and mustache) tell you how they defined the word transwoman?

There are some people that consider being trans to not be a movement from one sex to another and a mental state of the end state sex, but an actual mixture of gender cues, and physical aspects.

I'm having a hard time expressing this, but I know that Rachael has brought something like this up before. A transsexual that treats being trans as a gender in and of itself. Don't confuse this with androgynes either.

Although, and here's more food for thought, that example could also be an androgyne in denial.

   This is a reminder about what this thread was initially about.  I believe that the heart of the post is

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react?

Yeah in the end that really is what the thread is about. I'd react in a surprised manner most likely and ask them what was up. I'm an inquisitive person and I don't find a woman with a beard to be frightening or wrong, just unusual.

[melissa90299]

Sophia, which religious faith does this fictitious person you created adhere to? Or is this like the Church of We Are Women Even Though We Present Ourselves as Men Congegation of the Anointed.

You can dance on the head of the pin and peddle all the pyscho-babble you want but anyone who thinks she is a woman and wears a beard because of a religious conviction needs her head examined.

[LostInTime]

Please limit replies to the subject at hand, as highlighted a few messages above by Rebis. Any additional off topic conversation will result in this thread being permanently locked.


How I would react:
I will be honest and state that I would be uncomfortable, depending on the setting. In the leather community there are individuals who CD and have facial hair so I have seen this but never by anyone stating they were TS and FT. In a vanilla setting, I would be nice and try to get to know the person a bit.