Where does "not wanting to be *birth gender*" turn into "being *other gender*"?

[Quinnfong]

I know i don't want to be female, my birth sex, but i'm not sure if that means i am male. i can't really pin down how "being male" feels and am starting to think i'm sort of inbetween. lots of transguys i have spoken to online have told me "it's just something you know" but i'm not really sure... Don't get me wrong. i feel pretty sufficient if not extreme dysphoria over being in a female body, i just can't really say i'm male on just the grounds that i don't want to be female, right? or can i? is that what others do?

Not that this makes much of an impact on my life, i'm still going to transition to male regardless. I just wanted to see what kind of answers i'd get if i posted this.

[suzifrommd]

Not that this makes much of an impact on my life, i'm still going to transition to male regardless. I just wanted to see what kind of answers i'd get if i posted this.

This is me, Quinn. In reverse of course, since I was male at birth. But it's simply impossible to separate my internal gender with the roles I've played for all the decades of my life. But like you said, it really doesn't matter. My therapist and I agree that what's important is how I want to live (as a female, in my case).

Luckily, as men or women we get to decided EXACTLY what type of men or women we want to be. We're allowed to add or subtract any element of our gender as we see fit.

As for it being "just something you know", that's good for the people who feel it that way, but for many of us it is definitely NOT something we know. Something we need to discover or perhaps define, but I never knew my gender, and even now, months after my SRS, I still don't know.

Enjoy the ride.

[VeronicaLynn]

For me, it was really actually starting down the path. I thought, and somewhat feared that path for a long time, but once I actually went down it, it felt a lot different than I thought it would and becoming a woman is really just another set of stupid gender rules. I don't really think of myself as some other gender though, more of a mix of the best of the two binary genders, and without any of the dumb rules both genders self-impose on themselves.

[Mark3]

Most of us set our sites on where ever we feel comfortable and happy.. For everyone that's different...

This question is moving very quickly in my life right now, I've been able to hone-in on where I'm happy and satisfied a lot just today in fact.. Mostly it takes longer to realize who you are, and who you need to be to feel in tune with your body and mind..

[EchelonHunt]

For me, it was really actually starting down the path. I thought, and somewhat feared that path for a long time, but once I actually went down it, it felt a lot different than I thought it would and becoming a woman is really just another set of stupid gender rules. I don't really think of myself as some other gender though, more of a mix of the best of the two binary genders, and without any of the dumb rules both genders self-impose on themselves.

This! But for me, it was the opposite. I realized males had just as silly rules as females did and rejected both binary genders - felt happy since!

[helen2010]

Well if you have a binary view of the world then there are only 2 alternative identities.  You are either M or F.  Rejecting M implies you must be F and vice versa.

However as many of us have found we have developed our own unique sense of who we are and it is up to us how we describe and express this.  Choosing any label is in some ways limiting.  Gender fluid, gender queer, androgynous etc all seem to have different meanings according to audience and situation.  Even the sense of a gender continuum from 100% M to 100% F is limiting and arguably fallacious as many emotions, qualities, characteristics of an individual are inappropriately gendered and gender attribution changes by society, class, culture etc.

Non binary seems to me to provide the best and most permissive alternative to being a M or an F.  But really as humans we are just so much more than these 2 simple, reductionist and inappropriate labels.  The sooner that M and F are consigned to the refuse of history and recognised as the tools of privilege that they are, the better we will be.

To answer your question I describe myself as non binary.  M or F does not capture who I am in any way, shape or form.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Taka]

some have a really clear idea of what they are. i would never try to reject their feeling of a definite male or female identity, those most certainly do exist. but that doesn't mean that the world consists only of opposites. the complementary color to red is green, but that doesn't mean that anything which isn't red, has to be green. there are several other colors to choose from as well.

i think the answer might lie in whether you wish others to identify you as male or not. i don't really want to be identified as either gender, or you could say any gender id is ok for me, as long as people don't assume things about me based on it. there's also the slight discomforts about my body, but that's a little bit more difficult to deal with than simply deciding to transition to the opposite side of everything.

[Sammy]

I was born boy and since childhood I wanted to be a girl. Yet, given the sufficient time lapse and experience accumulated being socialised as a male and looking at it quite pragmatically, I came to realise that transitioning to female (in terms of classic binary MtF transition) is an impossible task. Quite often it involves deliberately and intentionally denouncing some quite important parts of Yourself for the sake of...? I dont really know for the sake of what . Yet, those parts at times seem so organic and crucial that tearing them out by force seems almost like inflicting a self-harm, plus it cause immense psychological distress and discomfort.
So at least for me, it is about finding the point of balance (or walking the edge). I dont mind being gendered as female and "pass" but I dont really care if people gender me as male either, because I feel like being both, but primarily female. Having a core male identity was the cause for GD and being able to switch to female because of HRT and style/fashion adjustments did help immensely. Yet, it feels that leading female life contains a lot of restrictions - similarly as it is with male life. At the moment, that is the price I am not tolerating or willing to pay. Will it stay the same? I dunno, but there is only one way to find it out

[Gothic Dandy]

You can transition to something in-between. You can define your own gender for yourself, and with the help of supportive doctors, create the body you want. It doesn't have to be only male or only female.

"it's just something you know" hahahaha. Well, I'm glad they're so sure of themselves--really I am, because this indecision is torture--but it certainly doesn't work that way for everyone.

It sounds like you have a lot of exploration to do. I don't mean idle thinking, but living as male as much as your'e able to, and examining how that makes you feel. I really wouldn't suggest doing anything irreversible to your body until you know for certain that it's what you truly want.

"i just can't really say i'm male on just the grounds that i don't want to be female, right? or can i? is that what others do? " I don't know about others, but it's not what I do. I don't expect to be 100% certain without fully transitioning, but "I must be male because I'm not female" is a rash judgment.

[captains]

I wish I knew. I'm trying to figure that out for myself.

[EchelonHunt]

Don't get me wrong. i feel pretty sufficient if not extreme dysphoria over being in a female body, i just can't really say i'm male on just the grounds that i don't want to be female, right? or can i? is that what others do?

Quinn,

This was what I did. Please allow me to explain my surrounding circumstances that led to this situation and the consequence of it.

I had a happy childhood, I thought I was a boy because of a birth condition known as androgenisation (basically, my female genitals looked more masculine than feminine), I thought I could pee standing up like my father and that failed attempt brought much shame and I had convinced myself that come puberty, my body would fix itself to be more male, then I could pee standing up.

I found out that puberty was going to change me into a woman, not a man. I was devastated, the first time I got my period, I cried and couldn't enjoy the cinemas because I was filled with dread. I did not want to be thrust into womanhood/motherhood but I had no choice, my body was betraying my mind. Due to my androgenisation condition, I had experienced an erection at school when I saw a couple french-kissing in front of me and even told my mother so, she was understandably flustered and yelled at me, "Girls don't get erections!"

After that, I suppressed my boy identity and tried to be a girl. Worst. Years. Of. My. Life. I struggled with depression, suicidal thoughts and my friends had told me that I said to them, "I wish I had been born a boy" when I have absolutely no recollection of telling them that. It was a scary time for me and I eventually realized... well, if I hate being a female so much, why not try being a male? I did not connect this to my behavior when I was a child until much later.

For me, I could see no future for myself as a female. Being a male was the logical solution at the time, I wasn't going to keep spending many years trying to force myself to be something I am not.

But when I began transitioning to male, after four years of Testosterone, I got slammed with body dysphoria for passing as a male. I also had a relationship at the time where a female partner expected me to be a walking example of a sexist, hypermasculine cis-guy - someone I am not. Once that relationship ended, I had to question my male identity and figure out if I cared about fulfilling binary roles that were enforced by partners and society. I learned... no, I don't give a hoot about binary roles and ... I realized I don't identify with either male or female. I identified as non-binary ... or more specifically in my case, genderless and my gender expression is androgynous (though sometimes it feels like I have a gender expression that is fluid, where it shifts between feminine, androgynous or masculine.)

That was soul-crushing... because my suppressed memories came to light: I remembered going to my family doctor and begging him to have my female breasts and genitals removed.  I was denied because I was young woman and doctors feared if I changed my mind and wanted to have children but could not due to being sterile, that I would sue them and tarnish their reputation. My decision about my body was taken away from me. I felt I had no future if there was no-one willing to listen and help me, it was awful. Then I found out about FtM transitioning and they had the surgeries I desired for such a long time... all I had to do was pretend to be male... No, that's wrong, I had convinced myself I was male. My self-image was male for many years since the age of 18 (I am 24). It felt right but part of me felt... no, it's close but not close enough... I didn't feel entirely complete!

The truth was I wanted to become sexless. I assumed that because I wanted to remove my female parts, that must mean that I am a male. No, that is not true at all (at least, for me). I am now stuck with a deep man voice whereas I would have liked a more gender-neutral voice. I wish I had figured out I was non-binary earlier... because years ago, I originally didn't want to go on HRT, as I just wanted top surgery and hysterectomy back then... but HRT was a (then) requirement for top surgery so I had no choice because... let's face it, HRT was the lesser of two evils for me back then... it was either deal with female breasts for the rest of my life or deal with HRT until I can get top surgery done.

But now, they allow non-binary/gender-variant individuals to receive to-surgery letters without having to go on HRT. I wish I could have done that but in hindsight, I would have to go the FTM transition route anyway as there are no surgeons willing to remove female genitalia if you identify as a biological female who is healthy and have no medical reason (cancer or transitioning) to remove their genitalia. Removal of female genitalia without a medical reason (please correct me if I am wrong) is considered Female Genital Mutilation (FGM for short), and it is illegal. My only option is to pursue bottom surgery but tailor the options to suit my needs. Instead of getting a full-set of male genitalia done, I am getting metoidioplasty but opting against scrotoplasty (meaning no scrotum is created or any testicular implants inserted), instead just have the vagina closed up. It will give the appearance of a smooth surface and an infantile penis - it will be easy for me to conceal should I feel like dressing in panties and frilly skirts on my more feminine gender expression days! For some reason, having the appearance of a neutered boy is the closest I am going to get to having a sexless appearance (after all, nullo men still need a little urethral opening for their pee to come out when they have their genitals removed). I feel this appearance will align my body with my mind and until that surgery is performed, I feel I will never be at peace with myself.

As you can see, I have put a lot of thought into this and I am still thinking it over again and again, to make sure this is what I want. I encourage you to do the same, please do not rush into transitioning. Even though I did not rush, I wasn't entirely honest with myself but transitioning and life experiences has helped open my eyes... I doubt I would have realized my true identity if I did not transition but that is my experience, it may be completely different for you.

I hope all goes well and never hesitate to ask any questions or to display your thoughts. Susan's can be a wonderful place to voice your hesitations, concerns, happiness, rants or just simply introspecting about gender in general or your identity (or lack there of!)

Jacey 

[Gothic Dandy]

Jacey, I want to personally thank you for sharing your story since I'm see-sawing between male and non-binary myself. It helps so much to hear from someone with more experience (although of course I'm sorry for the unwanted consequences).

I hadn't realized how new it was for people to transition to non-binary. I guess I'm really lucky that I began now.

Girls do get erections, in a sense... They just don't notice because that body part is so tiny in most females. But I suppose for your mom's generation, the workings of female sexual anatomy weren't common knowledge...

[EchelonHunt]

Jacey, I want to personally thank you for sharing your story since I'm see-sawing between male and non-binary myself. It helps so much to hear from someone with more experience (although of course I'm sorry for the unwanted consequences).

I hadn't realized how new it was for people to transition to non-binary. I guess I'm really lucky that I began now.

Girls do get erections, in a sense... They just don't notice because that body part is so tiny in most females. But I suppose for your mom's generation, the workings of female sexual anatomy weren't common knowledge...

It is my pleasure! Please don't feel the need to apologize, all I can do is work with what I've got and be absolutely grateful everyday that I have discovered my true identity sooner rather than later.

I believe the standards of care was modified to include non-binary in 2011, only I discovered non-binaries and their unique transition early 2014. I lived under a rock for many years, I would only keep up-to-date on FtM need or articles about transitioning/surgeries. I'm glad that has since changed!

I believe you may be correct! I tried explaining to my mum about the clitoris when I was a young adolescent and she said, "What the (bleep) is a clitoris?"