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Being treated like a PERSON instead of having "privileges"

Started by makipu, October 06, 2014, 04:37:05 PM

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Taka

not at all. i have a ton of privilege even without being born into a wealthy family. at least i'm free to make my own choices, there are maby young people who feel forced to deny themselves and stay on a painful path just to take over some family company. others may envy them the wealth, but they'd rather be free to do what they want instead of always having to care about how their actions would affect their family business.
of course the rich people can use the power of money to erase their kids' bad history, but what if the kid wanted to tarnish the family name, hoping to be set free or at least get some revenge on parents who care more about appearances than their own children's happiness...

if money really came with that much privilege, rich people wouldn't commit suicide.

and underestimating other types of privilege is just weird the way i see it. doesn't matter much how rich a trans woman is if she doesn't pass, and happens to go into the wrong place.
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Dread_Faery

Quote from: peky on October 07, 2014, 06:53:26 PM
The real privileges are tied to money, money, and money ... the rest just walk!

See previous comment, we're are discussing a very particular meaning of privilege as I had previously detailed.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 07, 2014, 06:55:11 AM
Privilege refers to something being seen as the default state by society. So cis privilege exists because cis gender identities are viewed by society as the default, gender identities that are different than that are other. Having a particular privilege doesn't automatically mean that you are well off, it just means that a particular aspect of your life is viewed by society as being default rather than other. Lines of privilege and oppression intersect differently for everyone and certain lines of oppression can have a profound effect on how others are experienced. For example, a WoC experiences sexism very differently to a white woman because of the intersection of racism and misogyny.

When talking about binary privilege all it means is that for both cis and trans gender identities, binary identities are viewed as the default (I am viewing gender non-conforming cis gender individuals as non-binary for this). Obviously if you are trans that is a major line if oppression and having binary privilege does not negate that, it just means that in an environment where trans identities are viewed as being valid, having a binary identity means you have more chance that people will accept it as valid.

What it is not is some kind of magical token that allows binary identified trans people to exist without trouble in the cis world.
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Allyda

Quote from: Pikachu on October 07, 2014, 07:33:35 PM
Yep. I'm dirt poor. I don't have any privileges.
Same here^^___^^. I'm on a low fixed income that barely keeps a roof over my head.

Ally ;)
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Pikachu

All I'll say is that life looks very different when you're so poor that you can't afford HRT, something almost every trans person takes for granted, so poor that if you saved every single penny you made for the rest of your life, you still couldn't afford GRS, so poor that you don't own a car, have insurance, have a legal residence, can't afford to buy ANYTHING new... I have to hunt for bargains at thrift stores when I actually buy things. Most of what I have are things others threw away. The computer I'm typing this on I built out of old, discarded parts and the internet connection is a free dial-up service. When you're this poor, you don't have a lot of sympathy for the plight of the rich. And, certainly, if I were rich, I could get as many surgeries as I wanted to pass, not that I personally care much about passing.

EDIT: And if I were rich, I'd pay for everyone's else's GRS, too, and make a ginormous donation to this site. :)
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Taka

i did have money a while ago. spent it on dirt poor friends, so i didn't ever have more than i needed to get by. now i have a tiny bit more, but most of it will be spent on my daughter's needs.
i did grow up in possibly the poorest family who had kids in my school. i still talk about being privileged, because i know i have possibilities that so many others don't have. it's not only about money.

i also find it extremely difficult to get access to hrt. but not because i can't afford it. i can cut down on the chocolote, stop my subscription to this site and a few other that mean a lot to me, not travel to visit family etc. but i'd still have troubles getting access to what most binary trans people take for granted.
and this is simply because i'm non-binary, or not trans enough, the way health authorities in my country see it.

binaries have privilege. they can at least buy treatment with money. in norway, a doctor might risk losing their licence if health authorities find out they've given me cross sex hormones. in denmark, they're trying to make laws that forbid doctors outside the gid clinic from treating trans people. our gid clinics only treat binary trans people.

talking about money as the only privilege ever is extremely offending to me and many of my friends who have been completely rejected on the basis of bot being trans enough. we feel the discrimination, and we envy the privileged (though not to the extent to wanting to rob them of the privilege, i'd never even think of wishing someine else did not get treatment just because i can't easily get it).
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Pikachu

I'm not saying money is the only privilege ever. I'm saying that when money prevents me from having the privileges I would otherwise have as a binary individual, that binary privilege then becomes meaningless.

It's why I feel offended whenever people start telling me I'm oh-so-privileged. That being said, I definitely get where you're coming from.
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JulieBlair

Quote from: Taka on October 08, 2014, 02:14:34 PM
i did have money a while ago. spent it on dirt poor friends, so i didn't ever have more than i needed to get by. now i have a tiny bit more, but most of it will be spent on my daughter's needs.
i did grow up in possibly the poorest family who had kids in my school. i still talk about being privileged, because i know i have possibilities that so many others don't have. it's not only about money.

i also find it extremely difficult to get access to hrt. but not because i can't afford it. i can cut down on the chocolote, stop my subscription to this site and a few other that mean a lot to me, not travel to visit family etc. but i'd still have troubles getting access to what most binary trans people take for granted.
and this is simply because i'm non-binary, or not trans enough, the way health authorities in my country see it.

binaries have privilege. they can at least buy treatment with money. in norway, a doctor might risk losing their licence if health authorities find out they've given me cross sex hormones. in denmark, they're trying to make laws that forbid doctors outside the gid clinic from treating trans people. our gid clinics only treat binary trans people.

talking about money as the only privilege ever is extremely offending to me and many of my friends who have been completely rejected on the basis of bot being trans enough. we feel the discrimination, and we envy the privileged (though not to the extent to wanting to rob them of the privilege, i'd never even think of wishing someine else did not get treatment just because i can't easily get it).

Pinkachu,
If you're interested, send me a PM, I'm willing to help with seeking resources for you.

Taka,
I never in a million years thought I would be saying this to someone from Scandinavia, but if you ever wish to migrate to the US.  I and my partner will help.

Peace
Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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Pikachu

After thinking it over a bit, I would like to apologise for my first post in this thread. I do recognize that non-binary people are more discriminated against in terms of seeking medical aid in transitioning. I was only speaking of the social acceptance in that post, trying to assure makipu that there are many people who will treat people as people and not a gender.
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helen2010

Pikachu

Thank you for your gracious acknowledgement of non binary challenges - the general lack of understanding of NB and our lack of privilege.  This means a lot to me.

Safe travels

Aisla
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Taka

it's ok pikachu, i've seen how terrible it can be to be poor. even in a country like norway, the poorest don't get the help thwy need, and which is supposed to he their right. only those who have resources, particularly intellectual and mental strength, and those from the right family get the monetary support when they need it.

having one privilege while lacking another can make things still end up below zero in total amount of privilege/discrimination.
i'm very happy to know that you acknowledge our experience of discrimination, while still experiencing discrimination in other areas. i've always wondered about this thing where you need permanent residence to get a job when you can't get permanent residence without a job. seems like an easy way to keep the poorest members of society outside the better circles forever.

i always feel privileged when i hear the stories of people who are even worse off than me. i at least know i'll have food on my table for months and likely years to come. doesn't help me transition today, but i'm at least likely to be alive when i get that chance.

thank you for the offer julie. i have a community here which i care for, and my daughter seema to have rooted well. so i'm unlikely to move much farther away than across the border into sweden, where i can do an equally good job for my community if i feel like it and there's any job open. and i really want to fight this fight here, can't just escape and leave weaker non-binaries lose this fight alone.
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Pikachu

Thank you, Taka and Aisla. I didn't mean to diminish the discrimination anyone has experienced, but I recognize that it may have come across that way. *hugs*
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JulieBlair

Quote from: Taka on October 08, 2014, 03:09:01 PM
i really want to fight this fight here, can't just escape and leave weaker non-binaries lose this fight alone.

You have my respect and admiration.

j
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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makipu

 Thank you for clarifying some things. I didn't think the Non-binary section would get this many replies.  I basically meant it like how male and female are treated differently for the simplest things one can imagine. 

By the way Taka, I feel for you in terms of not having access to HRT. That's just ridiculous. I am sorry if this sounds stupid but would you be willing to put on a binary act so you can get what you need? 
I am male because I say so and nothing more.
I don't have to look or act like one therefore.
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Taka

i'm first going to try a few of those doctors who operate outside the system. i know they exist, but they can be really hard to find. the best would be to have someone near me, so i'm gonna ask a gp or two if they'd be williing to try something new.
if that's impossible, then the binary act will be all that's left to try, but i don't think that would help for more than 2-3 years.
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Dread_Faery

Privilege and oppression are funny things, receiving a form of systemic privilege doesn't cancel out a form of systemic oppression, it just means that you experience that oppression differently. I quite obviously have white privilege, so no matter how poor I am, or female, or queer or trans or non binary, I will never experience those things the same way a woman of colour would. Which doesn't mean that the challenges I face are not challenging, it just means I will never ever face them with the additional hardship of having to deal with systemic racism.

Being able to acknowledge privileges you have is a powerful thing, not because you should feel guilty about belonging to a privileged group, but because if you can acknowledge privilege you can actually start to push back against the ---ked up system that creates these power dynamics and help create change. It's hard, because privilege is by it's very nature invisible, when something is viewed as a default state you only really become aware of it if it isn't there, and it takes a lot of self reflection to actually be able to see it, and then even more to deal with it in a human way. I'm definitely not new to this game and I'm still learning.
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Sarah Louise

Political "correctness" has gone to ridiculous levels.  Now a teacher is told not to call their students "boys and girls", why not?  Most (and I repeat "most" are boys or girls) I'm proud to be a girl.

I want to be seen for who I am, not as some "specialty" group.  I don't want special rights, I don't need them.  I want to be seen and Accepted as Me.

Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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EchelonHunt

I don't want special rights either, I just want the same and equal rights as everyone else and a place in society where men, women and everyone in-between or neither can happily coexist together.

And a Non-specified/Other box under Male & Female on forms, if that's not too hard to ask for...
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Devlyn

Some forms do, when I bought this phone the choices on registering were male/female/other and I used other. That's right, I othered myself!
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Dread_Faery

Political correctness gone mad is the rallying cry of the privileged, upset at having it pointed out that their world view isn't universal. Many children may be happy to be called girls and boys, but some aren't and there are plenty of ways of talking to a class that don't require gendering them. It's not political correctness it's called common human decency.
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Sarah Louise

I'll admit, its harder to be an Other.

I'm lucky, I fit into the binary of female, woman (the better sex)

Ok, ok, just joking.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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