Passing Privilege and Guilt

[Shana A]

yes, but can you pass as protestant?

No, best I can manage is to pass as a Unitarian 

Z

[candifla]

Hi Nicole,

My apologies if my initial response was a tad flippant, but it was a general reaction to the many other posts from those who are more passable and their supposed burden of being so pretty. It stemmed from my days of being an ugly guy. I never quite made the cut of being handsome, so I have a unfair chip against the bold and the beautiful.

A more thoughtful response to your query would be that you should try and abolish the guilt you have. It is needless, though can be constructive if it propels to empathy. Guilt would be a feeling of having done wrong; being prettier/passable is not a crime. Being stronger, richer, born American are also not crimes, it's how you treat other people who don't have the same luxury that would cause the guilt.

Being humble and considerate is one way to live life, being arrogant and self-centered is another; neither are right or wrong. Just find where on the scale you feel comfortable and the guilt should vanish.

[NicholeW.]

It is pretty apparent I was not gifted with the "passing privilege". It is also probably apparent that I am not that upset about it.  We all have our gifts, our advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason that anyone who can pass should feel any kind of guilt whatsoever. It's your advantage, your gift. What you do with that gift is up to you. Many people waste the gifts they have, by not utilizing their full potential. Passing is not an accident. Those who pass have usually put quite a bit of effort, time and money into it. And even if they have not, it does not matter. Some people are smart, others are gifted musicians. Some people can sing, others can't carry a tune in a bucket.

Am I jealous at times? You bet. I would love to be able to pass flawlessly. But I also recognize that I have not put the time, effort and money that is required. If you are feeling guilty about how you look, let it go. You don't owe me or any other transsexual anything. You owe yourself happiness, whatever it takes to get that. If that means living in stealth, so be it. It's all about finding contentment. A place one feels happy about how their life is going. Besides, it nice having you girls around. It gives me pics to show skeptics what can be done. That this is not a frivolous endeavor.

A very intelligent post, Elizabeth. Thanks.

Your view is refreshing to me. It points toward a couple of things that I think women often fail to recall, sometimes to even know.

This is definitely not a frivolous endeavor. That needs to be recognized by all who decide that they are TS. Looking good makes no one a woman. Looking bad does not make one not a woman. The core is a matter of soul/energy, etc. However it might turn out, that seems to me to be the first thing any transitioner needs to get into her head, really deeply into her head.

Lotsa women look good in their twenties, thirties, forties and older. Yet, if the look is all she has to live for, what happens if she outlives her looks? Can she age gracefully successfully? With the aplomb and grace of a Katherine Hepburn, or Maya Angelou?

And if she is not good looking, not a slim and willowy beauty: can she survive as female in spite of that? Bea Arthur has. Judy Dench has. Millions of women have.

No, guilt should not enter into it. Nor should pride. What is needed is to learn to align oneself.

Many people waste the gifts they have, by not utilizing their full potential.

Exactly so. To do that does require work: it requires knowing who I am, and living my life to be who I am: regardless my looks, or lack of them. 

Nichole

[Nero]

Better to pass as the warm beautiful human being that you are than anything else, Elizabeth.

Those who value passing as the end-all and be-all are creating their own personal hells and BAD karma but all are entitled to choosing their own paths.

I finally found someone who loves me unconditionally!



And she is soooooooo cute and never gives me any guff!

Beautiful pic, Melissa. The best you have shown us. You look so happy!

[tinkerbell]

Hi Nichole;

I think I've been really fortunate with this passing issue.  I have never encountered any significant challenges concerning my passability.  My worst memories of being ridiculed in public can be sumarized to only two incidents, both of which I experienced many years ago and when I wasn't still fulltime. 

The very few times I've been read afterwards have ALWAYS been related to my voice and NOT to my physical appearance.  Am I privileged?  honestly I think I am.  I can go to the supermarket without any makeup on, old shorts or jeans, a bad hair day, and no one will turn to take a second look at me.  I could open the door for any postman, UPS or cable guy right after waking up and there is absolutely no way they will read me unless I do something stupid with my voice. There have been a few times when GG's have asked me to hook their bra's on while in the ladie's room.  Apparently they were changing their bra's or something.  I'm sure that they wouldn't have asked me that if they had thought I looked like a "guy".

The entire experience with passability has been somewhat easy for me.  I don't usually talk about "passing" on these boards (unless the subject is brought up like right now) not because I feel guilty but because it is NOT an issue I have to deal with anymore.  I am afraid that if I were to talk  about how flawlessly I pass (like I am doing now, LOL  ) on every thread, I'd come across as someone vain, methinks.

Do I feel guilty?  Absolutely not.  Like Katia said, I deserve it.  Having lived a very unhappy, painful existence for many years, I don't think that anyone here should be under any obligation to anyone (especially when issues of this nature arise).  I don't owe anything to anybody here (or in the TG community) and I am sure that you don't either, so there's NO reason to feel guilty about issues such as living in stealth or passing   My two cents.

tink

[Elizabeth]

. . . If you are feeling guilty about how you look, let it go. You don't owe me or any other transsexual anything. You owe yourself happiness, whatever it takes to get that. If that means living in stealth, so be it. It's all about finding contentment. A place one feels happy about how their life is going. Besides, it nice having you girls around. It gives me pics to show skeptics what can be done. That this is not a frivolous endeavor.



Love always,
Elizabeth

Hey Elizabeth,

I remember that image.   She served me well on CD-F.

Thank you for the words and understanding in the paragraph I quoted.  You are so amazing and always have been.

In my post in this thread I spoke of things that don't speak for women who, for whatever reason, don't blend in as well as some of us do now, but what you said is so HUGE.

I'll do my best to remember your words and I will always pray that my heart will be as big and beautiful as yours.

If memory serves me, you posted it to me on one of my darkest days. To you I owe much.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Rachael]

Tink? vain? never!

R

[tinkerbell]

Tink? vain? never!

R

If you have it, show it off, right? 

tink

[NicholeW.]

Thanks everyone who has posted so far. I know, it might have turned into a volatile topic, but seems like we have all done well with it. At least so far. 

I do think there is a "passing privilege" that some of us enjoy, either through surgeries or natural growth and hereditary chance. Really now, is there not some privilege that accrues from being able to walk and go where you want with no one ever seeming to challenge your right to be there? While at the same time and the reverse conditions: unaffordable or ineffective surgeries, natural lack of growth and hereditary chance, there are those TSes who cannot do those things?

It isn't that I am saying that heredity, hard work and a large positive cash/asset balance is anyone's fault at all. Nor should anyone not use their advantages to reach the highest level of desire fulfillment and contentment she can reach. Thus, no guilt. But also no credit or just deserts to the fortunate. A lot of us owe what has occurred to us to chance and being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time.

I think Elizabeth made an excellent post about that, and like Rommie said, Elizabeth is a shining light in that way. She is, absolutely, making the best attempt she can to reach that level of ultimate(?) contentment while maintaining her sense that she is content enough in this moment. Wow, what a great testament to the remarkability of anyone!

As Tink pointed out some of us have had few if any problems "passing" at any point along the way. I have to admit that my experience has been much like her's: a few roughish events very early, but after six months or less of hrt nothing else. Provided I control voice, I really do not expect any difficulties. For one thing, I seem to have reached an age where my soft tissue shrinkage, even without ffs, has stopped. I should never have a problem with male dominant features being uncovered by that. (Take note younger transitioners. It DOES occur and you might want to start an ffs nest egg now for the days after you're forty, just in case.)

None of these things, though, seem to me to be a reason for anyone to feel guilty or shame. We are all differently advantaged in most respects. Probably the most important thing is that we do use and live into the advantages we have, and try to not highlight, to ourselves most especially, the things that we very well might despair over. Maybe that is the self belief factor that older TSes so often accent as a crucial item for transition.

Thanks to all for some timely and thoughtful commentary. I particularly appreciate the numbers of you who have encouraged me to not feel guilty about my own life. That was very sweet!  I don't. I just find it less unsettling to others if I can write about me and avoid using "you." That y word seems to be a great way to raise hackles. So I talked about my own guilt rather than stating that someone else feels it.

Thanks again. Hugs,

Nichole

[melissa90299]

I still don't get this guilt thing. Is it possible that the guilt comes from feeling superior to the less "passable?" I felt that way in the past and, yes, I guess I felt guilty about it.

Now, I kinda feel guilty about wasting so much energy on something (how we look, how others see us) that is such an ego-based delusion.

What is so ironic is that now that I have achieved the so-called "passing privilege" it is of very little importance to me.

Posted on: August 14, 2007, 09:13:17 AM

Tink? vain? never!

R

If you have it, show it off, right? 

tink

She walked into the party, like she was walking into a yacht.
With her hat hat tucked strategically below one eye
Her scarf it was apricot
With one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte
And all the boys wished that they'd be your partner...

[Melissa]

I felt guilt originally, but when I voiced it, it came off really badly.  I did it and talked about the things that happen to me in everyday life.  I was seeking support though.  I've had to leave the T* community for this kind of support and talk to women who have the same problems because it seems with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc. and have ways to get it to stop.  That's the kind of support I wasn't getting in the T* community.  When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

That's exactly what happens.  For the most part, I'm really just astounded that I do pass like I do.  When I first began transitioning, I was certain I would never pass well...at least not until I spent like $100,000 on myself.  But then on hormones only, I suddenly find myself actually passing, so sometimes I'm still getting used to the fact that what happened was completely different than my expectations.  I NEVER expected my voice to pass, let alone be able to sing as female.  I thought it would be something I would have to give up doing forever.  Yet now I'm doing it as a solo.  When you are able to actually experience some of your greatest dreams, of course you want to talk about it and share it with others.  It's not about bragging, but rather just to share what is possible.  I'm doing and experiencing things that totally fly in face of EVERYTHING I've ever read about life would be like during and after transition.

In summary, I don't feel guilty whatsoever about passing, but simply amazement that I do.

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful"... BAAAHHH.. I hate you (those that relish their passing and like to make a point about it) BECAUSE you are conceited, vain, and a showoff.

And that is precisely the kind of interpretation what we are talking about.  It's not bragging, showing off, being conceited, or being vain.  If you suddenly had some magic fairy come down and she granted you a wish to instantly turn you into a beautiful GG, wouldn't you want to share that with somebody else as well, or is it something you would shrug off and keep to yourself?**  Well, that's what it feels like for me at least.

One more thing, don't waste your energy being jealous of others.  I know I did *plenty* of that myself.  It's wasted energy that could be put towards finding your own comfort with yourself and your life.


**Hint: Most women LOVE to share stuff about their lives.

[Nero]

Hi Nichole,

It's good to see more posts like this.  There was another thread like this that was started by gothique(sp?)

I think expressing sincere empathy and not pity can help with not feeling guilty. 

I think accepting just because someone may blend in doesn't mean that they are attractive could be another way to combat guilt.  Sometimes women who aren't attractive get just as much negative attention as a T* woman who doesn't blend in as the woman she is.

I think a way to combat guilt is that some women swear they blend in and don't notice others who react to them.

Lastly it's not good to feel guilt because lots of T* women who don't blend in look at women who do with a sense of pride that they are too just as good, they are represented, and I think they are genuinely happy for them (those who blend in) because it shows we are all women too.

I felt guilt originally, but when I voiced it, it came off really badly.  I did it and talked about the things that happen to me in everyday life.  I was seeking support though.  I've had to leave the T* community for this kind of support and talk to women who have the same problems because it seems with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc. and have ways to get it to stop.  That's the kind of support I wasn't getting in the T* community.  When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

I'd spent my childhood and adult life thinking I'd have to deal with being discriminated against because of the way I looked.  I'd get feedback from others when I CD'd that I was very attractive, but I did my best to call it a lie because I didn't want to get my hopes up that it could be true.  Then I actually started living life and experiencing things that happen to women and not a T* and I found no support on how to cope with the jubilance of being treated like an attractive women, guilt of being treated as an attractive woman, or the fears associated with being perceived as attractive by others.   I thought if this happened it was supposed to be some kind of utopia.. nooooot!

Individually I don't feel guilt.  I take pride in being a representative of a lot of women who experience a world different that the one I do.  I feel honored to be able to help dispell the "we are men" myth and I'm learning to be more humble in the T* community about my experiences as I get my support for real life things elsewhere for now.  Hopefully one day this will change and the guilt of blending in will be a thing of the past.

Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

...with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc...

...I found no support on how to cope with the jubilance of being treated like an attractive woman, guilt of being treated like an attractive woman, or the fears of being seen as an attractive woman to others.

Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

[Melissa]

Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

Oh really, is that so? >  And you would know this?  Is it because you're a woman?  Here's an excerpt from an interesting page about beauty (and is not written in a TG or TS context).

Competition breads envy. We raise children on the tale of the aging queen to whom beauty has been her whole identity, the witch consumed with murderous jealousy toward her step-daughter, the fair Snow White. A girl knows she can lose friends if the boys give her too much more attention than her peers. Thus, while not having beauty exposes a woman to the danger of losing a date, a mate, or a job, having it exposes her to the danger of rejection by jealous friends or superiors.

In order to keep the peace, many women find it safer to play uglier-than-thou. "I feel so fat," says one eleven-year-old to her friend. "My hair is impossible." "My thighs are the worst." "Your thighs-yours are pencils compared to mine." Only brides have our full permission to celebrate their beauty. For the rest of us it would seem, well, vain to say, "Don't I look great today?"

When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Nero, you may have grown up in a female body which was considered attractive, but because you are not a woman, your POV is entirely different than a woman would have.  What women consider "intimidating", may have been no bother at all to you.  Also, according to what you have said, you were unable to ever properly socialize with other women, so why would they confide things in you that they wouldn't in us?  Just remember, us women do not share the same feelings that you would have.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Again, you are not realizing that you had a different mental context than women have, so don't assume that GGs share your frame of mind on this.  There is no way to know what a woman experiences unless you are one.

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Um, I think you have just negated your own point.


Anyhow, I don't personally feel that way.  I love the attention.   However, I do understand that women who don't like the attention can feel and I know that attitude is not limited to TS women, you will find it in equal dispersions among all groups of women.

[Rachael]

i think passing is as much a privilage at the moment, as being white was over black in pre civil rights america... or any other case of 'better than another group' concepts. I think its as random too, some can, some cant, such is life. its nothing to need support over if you do, or be constantly lauded for it. it just is.
R

[Nero]

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Um, I think you have just negated your own point.

How so? The poster only mentioned unwanted attention, advances, and fears about men. Believe me - men are a beautiful woman's last problem.
There seem to be a lot of myths in our community about women. GGs in particular. Some of my favorites:

'Women aren't competitive.' 'A competitive and catty transwoman is letting her male socialization slip out.' 'Women are always nice and polite.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. Women are just as, if not more so, competitive as men.

Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

Oh really, is that so? >  And you would know this?  Is it because you're a woman? 

When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Nero, you may have grown up in a female body which was considered attractive, but because you are not a woman, your POV is entirely different than a woman would have.  What women consider "intimidating", may have been no bother at all to you.  Also, according to what you have said, you were unable to ever properly socialize with other women, so why would they confide things in you that they wouldn't in us?  Just remember, us women do not share the same feelings that you would have.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Again, you are not realizing that you had a different mental context than women have, so don't assume that GGs share your frame of mind on this.  There is no way to know what a woman experiences unless you are one.

I'm sure no TS would deny that it is impossible to live in the body of the opposite gender without knowing how that gender is treated, at least by strangers. While I was never a woman, I still picked up some female socialization and understanding of walking in the world perceived as a woman.
Are you saying you know nothing about walking in the world as a perceived man? I find that hard to believe.



 

[Melissa]

Um, I think you have just negated your own point.

How so?

Oh, I was just referring to the fact that pretty much the only person who got after her for that post was a man.

The poster only mentioned unwanted attention, advances, and fears about men. Believe me - men are a beautiful woman's last problem.

Well, just being a woman alone increases the chance that men would be a problem to women (just look at statistics, plus the fact you mentioned it yourself).  However, men will watch women who fit a certain profile with whom to attack.  I'm not certain if being "beautiful" is a factor, but it may be to *some* of those men.  As for attention, early in my transition when I wasn't very attractive, no men hit on me.  Now I have it happening daily.  So being attractive makes a difference there. 

As for the attention being unwanted, you can read about that in a number of books.  One that immediately springs to mind that mentions this is What makes a woman very sexy by Julia Grice.

There seem to be a lot of myths in our community about women. GGs in particular. Some of my favorites:

'Women aren't competitive.' 'A competitive and catty transwoman is letting her male socialization slip out.' 'Women are always nice and polite.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. Women are just as, if not more so, competitive as men.

From my own experience, I would definitely agree with this.

I'm sure no TS would deny that it is impossible to live in the body of the opposite gender without knowing how that gender is treated, at least by strangers. While I was never a woman, I still picked up some female socialization and understanding of walking in the world perceived as a woman.

You may have been treated by others as a woman, but that doesn't mean you perceived this treatment in the same way a woman would.

Are you saying you know nothing about walking in the world as a perceived man? I find that hard to believe.

I know nothing how a man perceives being seen as a man by the world; I only know how *I* perceived being seen as a man by the world (or whatever I was actually perceived as ).

[NicholeW.]

Whoa, guys, both of you have opinions. They do not agree. And at this point neither of you is gonna cave in for the other. So, you have opinions.

Let other posters decide, if they wish. But this back and forth appears to be winning no hearts or minds.

You both are strong minded and believe in what you are saying. But, why not cool off a bit before posting anything else. Please?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will say this: beauty, Melissa, or lack of it is absolutely NOT a predictor of rape or sexual assault.

They are 'power' crimes, having nothing to do with sex, except that the sex is perhaps the most humiliating and dehumanizing aspect of the rapist asserting, generally his, power over his victim.

Trust me, I have been there. It is demeaning and debasing, it is shattering. And, it has nothing to do with beauty or sex.

Nichole

[Melissa]

That's fine.  My main driving point was that neither he nor I never had an accurate perspective of our birth sexes.  To claim otherwise that we are perceiving the world (including all mental processes and interpretations regarding our experiences) in a manner that is exactly the same as any non-TS member of our birthsex, precludes the belief that we had the brain and thought processes of our target genders from the beginning.

Perhaps some people do put too much emphasis on how much beauty affects the treatment of individuals, but I knew it was plain wrong to say that this type of POV is not shared among some GGs as well.

[Rachael]

here was me thinking rape was the rapist wanting to shag someone hot they couldnt have?

R

[NicholeW.]

That's fine.  My main driving point was that neither he nor I never had an accurate perspective of our birth sexes.  To claim otherwise that we are perceiving the world (including all mental processes and interpretations regarding our experiences) in a manner that is exactly the same as any non-TS member of our birthsex, precludes the belief that we had the brain and thought processes of our target genders from the beginning.

Perhaps some people do put too much emphasis on how much beauty affects the treatment of individuals, but I knew it was plain wrong to say that this type of POV is not shared among some GGs as well.

Okay. Does that mean you are also saying that males and females are hardwired in how we think and perceive this particular discussion as well!? That there is a woman's pov that is hardwired into my brain? And yours. And a male one in his?

His pov and yours are shared in a lot of ggs and gms I know. A few one way and a few another. So if a woman shares her concerns about being pretty and its effect on other women with other women then that woman is a woman. If she shares it with men she is a male?

Surely that is NOT what you are saying, Melissa.

Nichole