On Being Non-binary AND transexual

[androgynouspainter26]

It's a commonly held view even in the trans* community, I think, that people who identify as nonbinary don't want surgery, hormones, or any of the traditional tools of transition.  Why would anyone ever want too?  Who would ever want to reject the binary system of gender when they could just be "normal", right?  And people who don't accept that system-it's not like they could ever have body issues!  It's utterly insane.  I've come across this before even in the gender community, and it represents a complete erasure of my identity as a transsexual woman and a transgender person.  If trans 101 is that gender and sex are separate-why can't I be both transexual and transgender?  Why are the two mutually exclusive?  I know of people who completely transcend gender bounderies, but have no desire to change their body.  I know people who have changed their sex and fully transitioned, but violate the laws of social gender far less than most "cis" people do...and yet we say they are the same thing. 

So I ask all of you who are both-what are your experiences?  How do you deal with the prevailing view what one identity cancels the other out?

[Karen345]

Uh...

Okay so here we enter the realm of "we need a dictionary".

According to google:

################################
    trans·gen·der
    transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
    adjective
    adjective: transgendered
        denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.
        "a transgender activist and author"

    trans·sex·u·al
    tran(t)(s)ˈsekSH(əw)əl/
    noun
    noun: transsexual; plural noun: transsexuals; noun: transexual; plural noun: transexuals
        1.
        a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.
        synonyms:   hermaphrodite, androgyne, epicene, intersex, transgendered person; More
        informalgender-bender, ->-bleeped-<-
            a person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
            synonyms:   hermaphrodite, androgyne, epicene, intersex, transgendered person; More
            informalgender-bender, ->-bleeped-<-
    adjective
    adjective: transsexual; adjective: transexual
        1.
        of or relating to transsexuals.


###############################

Huh... Google is surprisingly unhelpful.

I mean, I never really thought that having done any type of transition would mean that you weren't transgendered, just that you'd done something to make yourself more comfortable in your skin.

[androgynouspainter26]

I didn't mean it that way AT ALL!  All I was trying to say is that there are some people who were once members of the opposite sex, that in their current state of existance in no way do "not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender".  I don't think that at all-it's just that I feel like people tend to think that you can't want surgery if you're non-binary.  It's just something I've personally run into.

[Pikachu]

The non-binary folks here seem pretty diverse. I can't think of any two who really share the same identity. So it seems odd to me that people would think you can't transition a certain way and still be non-binary. Even the term 'non-binary' seems to mean different things depending on who you ask. Lots of people consider me non-binary, even though I don't see myself that way.

[Mark3]

I've had to educate people around me several times already, some try, but just can't seem to understand.?

To me, Transgender isn't a specific identity, but a blanket term. Like the word "Car" is a blanket term for lots of different shapes and sizes of automobiles.

Transexual is in the description above, but doesn't it mean most thinking/feeling like the opposite of your birthsex, and being sexually attracted to others according to your internal identity.?

My CIS friends think transgender means completely changing genders, and its been hard to educate them about the different terms and identities within the term "Transgender".. Most CIS just don't have a clue, except my friends who know me well, and know other trans people, they all seem well educated and understand.

If I were younger, I might be very interested in taking hormones, but not surgery. But non binary can incompass a multitude of different needs and desires..

To answer your comment, YES it is insane, that people assume those things.. Personally, I'd love to possibly transition more dramatically at some point, it might feel really natural at the right time..

Most people outside this community are never going to understand that for the most part..

[Taka]

Diagnosis

Transsexualism appears in the two major diagnostic manuals used by mental health professionals worldwide, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM, currently in its fifth edition) and the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD, currently in its tenth edition). The ICD-10 incorporates transsexualism, dual role transvestism, and gender identity disorder of childhood into its gender identity disorder category. It defines transsexualism as "[a] desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex."[4] The DSM does not distinguish between gender identity disorder and transsexualism, and defines transvestic fetishism as a separate phenomenon which may co-occur with transsexualism. The DSM diagnosis requires four components:[5]

- A desire or insistence that one is of the opposite biological sex (that is not due to a perceived advantage of being the other sex).
- Evidence of persistent discomfort with, and perceived inappropriateness of the individual's biological sex.
- The individual is not intersex (although a diagnosis of GID Not Otherwise Specified is available, which enables intersex people who reject their sex-assignment to access transsexual treatments).
- Evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in work or social life.

transsexualism is a very specific diagnose, one that says you want to be the opposite sex. full transformation if possible. in some countries, this diagnose is the only one that gives a right to treatment.

transgender is less specific, and also includes people who want less or no physical changes. if the term is used right, it means the same as having gender dysphoria, or being treated for this medically or with other therapy.

gender identity disorder has been renamed to gender dysphoria. transgender people no longer have a disorder according to the dsm, but have a dysphoria that very often needs medical treatment.

some people insist on using transsexualism only about themselves, as a diagnose of a problem. they don't think it's right to use trans or transperson or other variants that create an identity. it may be good to consider oneself as a man or a woman diagnosed with or having been treated for transsexualism, but that really leaves out all non-binary transgender people who actually identity as a gender variant other than male or female. i'm very close to hating the harry benjamin resource center in norway, because they actually try to rob me of my right to an identity, and tell me when i write to them asking whether there are any possibilities for me to get help, that i don't have any right to it.

where is that resource center that protects all transgender people's right to happiness?

[suzifrommd]

I'm a non-binary trans woman. I'm living 100% female despite my identity. I love it.

There is NO LAW that says that non-binary people can't transition to the presentation that makes us the most comfortable. We are NOT merely cheerleaders consigned to the sidelines doomed to support binary folks while they celebrate their wonderful transitions.

[Taka]

they're trying to make that law in denmark, suzi.
never take your freedom for granted...

[suzifrommd]

they're trying to make that law in denmark, suzi.
never take your freedom for granted...

All the more reason for asserting our right to transition while we still have it, right?

[Dread_Faery]

they're trying to make that law in denmark, suzi.
never take your freedom for granted...

What the actual ---k?

I think a lot of enby folk pretend to fit the binary trans narrative to get what they want, either deliberately, or through self deception. My partner identifies as a gender queer boi, they don't want their boobs and get horrible beard envy, but don't care about GRS. They are having to pretend to be FtM to get treatment.

Gender runs through everything, a bit like the matrix, and it exists to keep people under control in little boxes.

[Dread_Faery]

Also speaking of the matrix, re-watch it from the PoV of the trans experience and baring in mind Lana Wachowski essentially used the money from the film to fund her transition. It may actually be one of the best stories about what it's like to be trans, without being about being trans at all.

[EchelonHunt]

Also speaking of the matrix, re-watch it from the PoV of the trans experience and baring in mind Lana Wachowski essentially used the money from the film to fund her transition. It may actually be one of the best stories about what it's like to be trans, without being about being trans at all.

Now I am going to have to re-watch that film just to view it from the PoV of the trans experience!

[Dread_Faery]

Do it. You will be like OMG! Mind = Blown.

[Taka]

it's true about denmark. some idiots have decided it's a good idea to require those who want cross sex hormones to go through that one and only national gid clinic. if the law passes, they can revoke any doc's licence who gives hrt to a transgender person. they've already a few years ago started a major witch hunt where that good of the patient isn't even taken into consideration. the gid clinic has seriously long waitlists, it can take over a year to get in for evaluation after the initial interview, and they work on long past outdated harry benjamin principles. no nb people will ever get through that evaluation without lying, even binary trans people have to lie about their degree of dysphoria, and all kinds of ridiculous stuff. i'd automatically be rejected because i have a child, trans guys are required to hate their genitals to death and be utterly disgusted by the thought of carrying a child.
i'm not far from wishing all the misery life can possibly give a person, upon those idiots who are trying to drive young trans persons to suicide.

contact natkat for a link to a petition to get a right to treatment under informed consent. that would allow doctors to do what they know is best for the patient, rather than be forced to reject people in need. many trans people are in danger of losing access to life saving hrt because they've gotten that from private practitioners after the national gid clinic rejected them.

if the law is passed in denmark, there's a real danger it will be in norway too. what's already difficult will become completely impossible.

[Vestyn]

Erm, hello...

I've never heard of this view but I'm new here and not very educated in gender theories. From what I've gathered so far there seems to be incredible diversity within the non-binary community.  Having recently completed top surgery, I guess by some definitions, that would make me a transsexual (?) But I've never had any illusion that I'm FTM - my surgeon did not require me to pretend that I did - and in fact, my own inner search is about whether I'm really non-binary or just androgynous cis. My experience so far has been overwhelmingly positive because I found a good friend online who is also non-binary post-op and he's helped me deal with both the medical and identity stuff. But...we'll see...I haven't socialized much outside of cis circles, so there's a lot left to learn.

[Satinjoy]

Will comment, probably strongly, Monday.

Satinjoy

[Jaded Jade]

it's true about denmark. some idiots have decided it's a good idea to require those who want cross sex hormones to go through that one and only national gid clinic. if the law passes, they can revoke any doc's licence who gives hrt to a transgender person. they've already a few years ago started a major witch hunt where that good of the patient isn't even taken into consideration. the gid clinic has seriously long waitlists, it can take over a year to get in for evaluation after the initial interview, and they work on long past outdated harry benjamin principles. no nb people will ever get through that evaluation without lying, even binary trans people have to lie about their degree of dysphoria, and all kinds of ridiculous stuff. i'd automatically be rejected because i have a child, trans guys are required to hate their genitals to death and be utterly disgusted by the thought of carrying a child.
i'm not far from wishing all the misery life can possibly give a person, upon those idiots who are trying to drive young trans persons to suicide.

contact natkat for a link to a petition to get a right to treatment under informed consent. that would allow doctors to do what they know is best for the patient, rather than be forced to reject people in need. many trans people are in danger of losing access to life saving hrt because they've gotten that from private practitioners after the national gid clinic rejected them.

if the law is passed in Denmark, there's a real danger it will be in Norway too. what's already difficult will become completely impossible.

Dear lord that is horrible.

Things can be stupid in the US sometimes, but they seem to be getting slowly better...

Technically there is the herbal route, but that is a minefield of self-medication.  (Not that I am innocent of that myself...)

Europe is pretty dense, how feasible or legit would it be to see a doctor in a neighbouring country, Germany, Sweden, Norway?
(So stupid to need to though...)

------------------------------------

But back on topic, I am non-binary and and trans...  I have GD that has my core identity as Androgyne, full HRT would be too much and too fast for me, low dose is what I need to silence the GD noise in my head.  But that is not enough to alter body contour, so I do targeted muscle building with strength yoga and protein shakes.  As well as accouple obscure exercises that aggressively narrow the waist.  Working on unwanted hair with a Tria laser.  It seems to be working so far.  I think HRT, hair removal, and wilful body contour alteration certainly count as trans, even if the details of my situation are less common than other! 

My goal is balanced an non-dissonant androgyny, and my age that might be hard to pull off, and a male or andro-male presentation.  The social stuff isn't as important to me.  If I woke up tomorrow perfectly and beautifully female, I'd just say "Hey cool."  Put on jeans, a t-shirt, and no makeup and go to work.  I'm just in the middle, and as long as I am not strongly binary physically I am ambivalent about the details.

Once the beard is gone and I lose 30lbs, I'll be down to two or three genders worth of normal body image issues*, but that is a piece of cake compared to GD.

* Won't really care at all, but ad copy and media do a number on us all.  How much more so those of us that never see any version of ourselves presented as acceptable, let alone ideal.


- Jaded Jade

[helen2010]

Dear lord that is horrible.

Things can be stupid in the US sometimes, but they seem to be getting slowly better...

------------------------------------

But back on topic, I am non-binary and and trans...  I have GD that has my core identity as Androgyne, full HRT would be too much and too fast for me, low dose is what I need to silence the GD noise in my head.....    I think HRT, hair removal, and wilful body contour alteration certainly count as trans, even if the details of my situation are less common than other! 

My goal is balanced and non-dissonant androgyny, and my age that might be hard to pull off, and a male or andro-male presentation.  The social stuff isn't as important to me.  If I woke up tomorrow perfectly and beautifully female, I'd just say "Hey cool."  Put on jeans, a t-shirt, and no makeup and go to work.  I'm just in the middle, and as long as I am not strongly binary physically I am ambivalent about the details.

- Jaded Jade

Vestyn

My experience and journey, with the addition of some facial surgery, is similar to Jade's. As you say your current journey is to determine whether you are non binary or cis androgynous so it seems pretty normal to me.   

Jade

IMO dysphoria is powerful and dangerous.  Depending upon its strength,  treatment is usually a necessity and avoids much personal and social stress and damage.  Taka's comments re Norway and Denmark are unsettling - I am not sure why one country discriminates against or in favour of one group over another as it seems to me an inalienable right  and a reasonable expectation of the medical profession and government that they do not withhold access to necessary treatment and surgery.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Taka]

that old f64.0 is the diagnose that once upon a time got a right to treatment. laws haven't changed, and because there are sp few people in our countries, the national gid clinics have kind of gotten a monopoly on the evaluation and medical treatment. until a couple years ago, norwegians would go to denmark to get hormones, because there are more private practitioner is denmark who have transgender experience. some norwegians also go to england, and i think danish people may go to germany for treatment.

the current witch hunt in denmark, where the national gid clinic does its best to keep their monopoly on everything to do with diagnosing and treatment, is nothing new. it's happened before, both in norway and denmark, that the netional clinic have accused private practitioners of malpractice, but it's only now that denmark is even trying to make laws that forbid private practitioners from treating transgender people.

sweden has a different situation. all transgender people have to go through the nhs, which means i'd most likely have to live in sweden to get treatment there. but feminists are very active in that country and support the whole lgbt community, and the rights to treatment are much better there. femme guys don't have to lie just to get in. the people are much better at making demands of their political leaders, and feminists speak of equal rights of all people, not only women. in sweden, they're also more focused on attacking the norms behind laws, rather than the law itself. if the norms are recognized as wrong, it automatically means that the law must be changed. but in denmark and norway, it seems that focus is mostly on the law itself, and changing the law without first making people ask themselves whether the norms behind are anything we want in a modern society, makes it much more difficult to change laws.

[Ev]

As somewhat of an egotistical person, I like to leave an impression on the types of people who find the A/Q/? attractive.  That said, I don't worry about passing as male or female or even androgynous...although I do lean towards the more "feminine" modes of expression in terms of clothes and makeup.  There is feminine males and feminine females...the really girly-girls so to speak...as well as softer "drogs" who look more feminine even though they are mostly gender neutral in their aesthetics and attitude.  "A dress does not a woman make."  I have even learned to make my voice as "gender neutral" as possible because it is the voice than can push someone's opinion over too far one way, which I don't care to do because it lets me go out in any style of clothes and not have to change a damn thing.  (I got to play with a pitch machine to do this.)  However, I found my "pre HRT" image to be "too masculine" so I decided I could benefit from the therapy to push me into the drog area, which it has.  The results have been pleasing.

I don't mind being called "he", "she", or even "it"...but what I do hate is having to be told I have to identify soley as ONE of the gender binary types as a static thing.  Call me any one, just don't limit me to one.  The fact that I initially "had" to say I was a "female trapped in a man's body" to get therapy was frustrating enough, but I swallowed my pride and did it.

So, what I guess I am getting at is that just because one goes through the trans process doesn't mean that they are "the wrong binary gender in the wrong binary body."  I have found that if women want to hit the drog zone they often have to cut their hair, whearas if the men want to hit the same zone they have to grow it out.  When someone desires a "balancing factor" to get their desired results into the Q/A/? zone, THAT factor is often trans-therapy.  THAT doesn't make them an MTF/FTM by default.  One word that has been tossed around in my presence is "trigender", which is the closest thing I can think of to fit the approach I take.