Opinion of MtF's & FtM's concerning androgynes:: Poll Results

[Nero]

I'd avoided responding to this, but I wanted to... I've been drawn to it for a bit.

I was hurt by that poll.  Not by the numbers of people who didn't see us as valid.  I was hurt by the fact that they wouldn't elaborate or give reasons.  There was one person in particular, but there was a general trend of saying "Because I think so."

I think that's the most hurtful thing. 

I know that many people don't see my gender identity as valid.  But I don't understand WHY.  I don't understand why the world lives in an unworkable binary--and it is unworkable.  Nature does not contain any true binaries.  They all have some level of mutation in them.  I can't think of a single binary other than "exists" or "does not exist."

Binaries are man made and I don't understand why we worship them so.

I just don't get it.  Nature is not binary.  We are part of nature.  Why do we try to fit into a binary?

And no one will tell me why this binary is so bloody important.  No one will tell me why they see it as the only possibility. 

They all just seem to say "Cause I said so."

And I just want to know why.

I'd be interested to know why, too. There've been gender variant people throughout the ages. And no anamoly is absolute. Look at the many types of intersexed people.
Maybe androgynes developed from the same cause of transsexuals, with a mind imprint that doesn't match their sex.
Just that the abnormality was more severe in the transsexual - causing their sex to be at the North Pole, and their gender at the South Pole, whereas androgynes are at the equator.

[Christo]

androgyn is da same as be trans.  its another gender.  dont got no problems with nobody that want to be seen as androgyns  we gotta be together on this if we wanna get acceptence by society. 

[Alison]

we gotta be together on this if we wanna get acceptence by society.

Well spoken Chris...  We're all minorities (LGBTQetc).. we really need to be a united front if we want the rest of the world to accept...  How can we expect "them" to accept us if "we" can't even accept us.

[buttercup]

we gotta be together on this if we wanna get acceptence by society.

Well spoken Chris...  We're all minorities (LGBTQetc).. we really need to be a united front if we want the rest of the world to accept...  How can we expect "them" to accept us if "we" can't even accept us.

I agree 100%.  We should celebrate our differences and stay united because when it comes to the crunch, the majority always rules. 

buttercup   

[Shana A]

I'd avoided responding to this, but I wanted to... I've been drawn to it for a bit.

I was hurt by that poll.  Not by the numbers of people who didn't see us as valid.  I was hurt by the fact that they wouldn't elaborate or give reasons.  There was one person in particular, but there was a general trend of saying "Because I think so."

I think that's the most hurtful thing. 

I know that many people don't see my gender identity as valid.  But I don't understand WHY.  I don't understand why the world lives in an unworkable binary--and it is unworkable.  Nature does not contain any true binaries.  They all have some level of mutation in them.  I can't think of a single binary other than "exists" or "does not exist."

Binaries are man made and I don't understand why we worship them so.

I just don't get it.  Nature is not binary.  We are part of nature.  Why do we try to fit into a binary?

And no one will tell me why this binary is so bloody important.  No one will tell me why they see it as the only possibility. 

They all just seem to say "Cause I said so."

And I just want to know why.

Tay,

I agree with you 100%. I also wished to hear elaboration regarding their reasons, yet they didn't appear to want to engage in dialog. That silence is more hurtful than someone telling you why. It's as if they've slammed the door in your face. If someone is willing to discuss it with us, that's a gesture of willingness to get to know us. If we all listen to each other then we can start to understand each other. Of course, they'd be equally hurt by someone telling them that being TS didn't exist.

My opinion is that the people who don't believe that we exist are highly invested in the binary. They NEED the binary to exist, without it, their existence is brought into question. In other threads we've heard some people say how they feel they are 100% the gender/sex that they are. They don't want to be seen as anything less than their target gender, I can respect that. But we've also heard strict adherence and policing of binary gender roles, and dissing of people who "don't pass".

I think that the idea that there might be an in between must be very scary to them, especially since they've internalized societal pressures that anything outside the binary, or other, is considered to be less than the "real" thing. Our existence brings everything into question that they hold as absolute. They're truly scared of the possibility of variation, and thus have a hard time accepting us or wanting to engage in dialog. In many ways, we are pioneers, exploring the outreaches of gender. Everyone around us is sure that if we go far enough out there beyond binary gender, we're going to fall off the edge of the world. They don't want to follow us into the raging sea. 

Well, there's my 2 cents on the subject, whether or not anyone wanted to hear it.   

Zythyra

[Mia and Marq]

I think Zythara is hitting at the root of the issue here. This comes up quite a lot actually in some of the topics in the transexual sections. An investment into as clear cut a binary gender model as possible helps to keep the more insecure about their journey from questioning themselves. If the definitions start to blur because theres people like us outside their lines, then the solid structure they rely on is found to be built upon sand.

What can you do though? We should extend our hands to those that wish to understand. Some people won't ever come around but that applies to everything.

Power to our peoples!!
Marq and Mia

[Shana A]

What can you do though? We should extend our hands to those that wish to understand.

Indeed, we should reach out to anyone who expresses interest in understanding us. And live our lives openly, demonstrating by our actions that the edge of the cliff really isn't so scary... oooops, I slipped, oh no, I'm meltinnnnnnng 

zythyra

[Tay]

Just because bisexuals exist doesn't mean that a man is any less straight or any more straight.  Just because bisexuals exist doesn't mean a man is any less gay or any more gay. 

Why invest yourself in something that doesn't make sense?  You're setting your self up for failure and you're creating the cliff for people who cannot be invested in that something to fall off.

For me, the binary means either complete self-repression or death.  I just can't see why they would have to be any more invested in a binary than homo or heterosexuals.  And homo and heterosexuals don't all (or even mostly) deny the existence of bisexuals.

I want the answers in their own words--not our guesses as to what their answers are.  I find it unfair that I don't get that.

[RebeccaFog]

Just because bisexuals exist doesn't mean that a man is any less straight or any more straight.  Just because bisexuals exist doesn't mean a man is any less gay or any more gay. 

Why invest yourself in something that doesn't make sense?  You're setting your self up for failure and you're creating the cliff for people who cannot be invested in that something to fall off.

For me, the binary means either complete self-repression or death.  I just can't see why they would have to be any more invested in a binary than homo or heterosexuals.  And homo and heterosexuals don't all (or even mostly) deny the existence of bisexuals.

I want the answers in their own words--not our guesses as to what their answers are.  I find it unfair that I don't get that.

      Me too, young one.  For a while I was hurt, but I've been distracted lately.
      I have an even more bizarre idea that I am going to start a thread on.

      By the way, everybody, don't worry.  When Z fell off the cliff I was able to save hir sandwich!    and we all get to split hir portion of dessert.

[Shana A]

By the way, everybody, don't worry.  When Z fell off the cliff I was able to save hir sandwich!  Smiley  and we all get to split hir portion of dessert.

Hold on, I can deal with you eating my sandwich, but my dessert... that's sacrilege! 

Z

[Louise]

I agree with Zythra that the reason many others do not accept the existence of androgyny as anything other than a temporary confusion on the way to discovering one's "true" gender is that these people have a lot tied up in gender essentialism.  Unfortunately we all have a tendency to judge reality based on our own individual experiences.  If one's experience is tied to a single gender identity, then it is just obvious to that person that gender must be bipolar.  If all your life you are convinced that your are "really" a man or a woman despite what your anatomy proclaims you to be, then you are also convinced that the differences between being male and being female must be either/or.  For those of us who experience in our own lives the ambiguity of gender, it is "obvious" that gender is not merely bipolar.  For those who do not share our experience, it is just as obvious that gender is bipolar.

Nature does have a tendency to gender dimorphism.  Those of us who are androgynes are exceptions.  We are a minority, not the norm.  Because we are exceptional it is difficult for others who do not share our experience to recognize us. 

[Seshatneferw]

I just can't see why they would have to be any more invested in a binary than homo or heterosexuals.  And homo and heterosexuals don't all (or even mostly) deny the existence of bisexuals.

I don't think the cases are completely similar. For most monosexuals ( ), it is completely understandable that one can be attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex, and from that it is a small step to realising that one can be attracted to both. Of course, there is the religious fringe for whom homosexuality is evil: for those, acknowledging the existence of bisexuality would mean leaving people like Senator Craig on the wrong side of the fence, but as long as there are only two labels to choose from, such people are happily married heterosexuals.

The case of the transsexual extremists (so to speak) is slightly different. They have gone through a very deep crisis, typically ending in a pretty hard transition. If gender is not binary, there is a very serious doubt as to whether that crisis could have been avoided. They lost everything (or most things) important to them in order to be the correct gender; doubting gender would mean that they just lost that, too. As a consequence, they must believe in the binary, and also in the inevitability of transition. Or at least, that's how I've been able to view this.

By the way, everybody, don't worry.  When Z fell off the cliff I was able to save hir sandwich!  Smiley  and we all get to split hir portion of dessert.

Hold on, I can deal with you eating my sandwich, but my dessert... that's sacrilege! 

All right, we'll throw some of the chocolate down the cliff as a sacrifice to your spirit.

  Nfr

[Shana A]

All right, we'll throw some of the chocolate down the cliff as a sacrifice to your spirit.

Ummmm, gee, thanks 

Z

[Pica Pica]

I've always thought that humankind's fondness of binaries were due to the big binary. Life or Death.

[Tay]

That comes down to "exists" or "does not exist."

Life either exists or does not.  The absence of life is death.

I think binaries come down to simplistic categorisation.

Regardless of whether they work.

[RebeccaFog]

That comes down to "exists" or "does not exist."

Life either exists or does not.  The absence of life is death.

I think binaries come down to simplistic categorisation.

Regardless of whether they work.

agreed.

[Louise]

There are just two kinds of people--those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don't.  >

[RebeccaFog]

There are just two kinds of people--those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don't.  >

good one, Louise.   


Posted on: September 07, 2007, 10:17:20 PMHi,

   I went and updated the little charty thing here based on the slightly different stats.   

As of 9/20/07
Question:      Do FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?  (Be Honest)
Androgynes need not respond.

Question	# of votes	% of votes
I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.	29	49.2%
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative	8	13.6%
It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.	7	11.9%
Don't understand/know enough about it to have an opinion.	4	6.8%
I really just think it's a phase.	3	5.1%
You people are deranged. Please leave me alone.	3	5.1%
Undecided	2	3.4%
I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity / don't know for sure	3	5.1%

Total Voters: 59

The poll at
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,17281.0/viewResults.html
says there were 55 voters but the votes add up to 59.  I'm not trying to mess with anyone.  I don't get it.
the percentages add up to 100.2%

Hmmmmm,
   I just realized that some of the options above can be combined.  So I'm going to try that:

Question	# of votes	% of votes
I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.	29	49.2%
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative      It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.      I really just think it's a phase.	18	30.6%
You people are deranged. Please leave me alone.	3	5.1%
Don't understand/know enough about it to have an opinion.      Undecided      I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity/don't know for sure	9	15.3%

I'm not trying to be funny, I just thought that a couple of categories amounted to the same thing like no opinion / undecided / and not knowing for sure mean about the same thing.