Why are transgendered people the unwanted step-child of the LGBT?

[Shana A]

but... but... i *like* girls!

What's not to like? 

Many years ago I was explaining about being trans to a gay male friend, he assumed I'd be interested in men. When I told him I was in a relationship with another woman, he was absolutely amazed that I'd go through the ordeal of changing sex just to end up with a woman. 

Zythyra

[Sophia]

Having sex with men isn't really a feminine behavior and having sex with women isn't really a masculine one.

Its only perceived so by the opposition and lauded as such by them.

True, which is part of the underlying problems we face. Some actually believe that gay men are like women and lesbians are like men. A lot of misconceptions about us are born of this - that TS are just such extreme homosexuals that we want to be the opposite sex.

Which is ridiculous because it totally doesn't account for transpeople like myself, that are attracted to our target sex.

I'm a lesbian and it blows that whole theory out of the water and into the stratosphere.

^_^

[Christine Eryn]

This might be a bit off topic, but last year, I got the courage to go to a gay bay (more like the city's gay bar) for a drag night. My main goal was to interact with the performers and get their insight and maybe doctors who knew about hormones, therapy, support groups, etc. There were a few performers who were that looked nearly like GGs from head to toe. I was stunned, amazed, saddened my life did not yet take that course, yet I was filled with a little hope that this could be a possibility for me.

Anyways, the locals did not even take notice of me at all. Good, bad, who knows. I felt like an outcast. Strangely, I tried to look as "queer" as possible to blend in. I might as well have been a ghost. I did not feel confortable, yet I went back a few times. I never spoke to anyone there except to order drinks.

It was a good experience though, as I saw people acting free, no one was around to bother them, they didn't care what people thought of them, outsiders like me included. It helped me, because now I have the mindset of, well who's gonna tell me anything if my eyebrows are too thin, or if I'm too skinny, or walk too girly, the list goes on.

Just thought I'd share. 

[Blanche]

I've never liked the idea of being mixed with gay people.  I have nothing against them.  I just don't think we share the same goals and ideas.  My issues are gender or identity related; they have nothing to do with sex or sexual matters.

[Julie Marie]

Well I look at it like this... Gay and lesbian people have something very similar in common, both are attracted to members of the same sex they are born.  They want to go out in public and display the same type of affection, etc as hetero people without discrimination.  Bisexuals are in a somewhat different category since they can "pass" as hetero without faking it, at least part of the time.  But what I've noticed is there are almost no bisexual activists out there.    I digress...

Trans persons are in a totally different category though.  This is an issue of gender identity and not gender orientation.  There are transpersons who are hetero, gay lesbian and bi. 

We got lumped in with the LGB group to gain some clout and probably to gain some personal strength.  Going it alone would have been a long hard road, much harder than any of the gay or lesbian persons had.  Exactly how we became part of that group I don't know, but I do know at first the LGB communities didn't want us included on a bill because they felt it would hurt the chances of that bill passing.  Today it's different.  And for that I'm grateful.

With statistics being made public that we spend over $400 billion a year (money talks) I think it's just a matter of time before we will be able to stand alone, if that's what we want.

Julie

[Shana A]

But what I've noticed is there are almost no bisexual activists out there.

As someone who's been part of the bi community since we were trying to get inclusion w/ GL, I know some bi activists, many of whom are working alongside w/ GL and T activists for their causes. It's very easy for bi folks to be invisible, if in a relationship with same sex, they're seen by others as gay, and if with a opposite sex parter, they're seen as het. It was my own coming out process as bi that also paved the way to make me more aware and accepting of my gender variance.

Zythyra

[ChildOfTheLight]

G-ddess help any of us who might be a "man in a dress" with a bass voice

Zythyra

*raises his hand*

[Fer]

Why?  because there's no connection between the two groups.  We claim to be part of one another but reality says the opposite.  Our interests aren't mutual and even though both groups are minorities, we don't share anything in common aside from the obvious, discrimination.

[Shana A]

G-ddess help any of us who might be a "man in a dress" with a bass voice

Zythyra

*raises his hand*

Child of the Light,

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here Truth be told though, I'm really a baritone, not a bass 

Zythyra

[Sophia]

Why?  because there's no connection between the two groups.  We claim to be part of one another but reality says the opposite.  Our interests aren't mutual and even though both groups are minorities, we don't share anything in common aside from the obvious, discrimination.

Honestly? If more groups that only shared discrimination banded together, there would be a whole hell of a lot less discrimination.

Do our interests go against the interests of the Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual rights movement? Definitely not. There is no conflict between our groups beyond the small predjudices that exist for individuals within each group. None of these actually come from the group's goals themselves, but from these people's upbringings and experiences.

If African Americans, Native Americans, Women, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Asexuals, Transgendered and Transsexuals, and numerous other groups got together and decided to fight as one group for all our needs, we'd win every battle thrown at us.

It just seems kind of dangerous to drop allies when we're so outnumbered to begin with.

[Sophia]

Only too true, redfish. I hope some day we can break that misconception of the oppressor.

[Natasha]

Being a transsexual woman, I don't like to be lumped up with people who have not experienced what I have experienced.  TS are a different group just like Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender are and need to be acknowledged and kept as a separate category.

i agree.  why?  because...

as far as 'outsiders' are concerned, a transvestite, a cross-dresser, an androgyne, and a transsexual woman are all just different words for a 'man in a dress'.

The transgender community uses this to their advantage; in the last few years, there has been an increase (small, but still significant) in the general understanding and acceptance of transsexualism; we've made advances socially, legally and medically, and the transgender activists want some of that acceptance for themselves which is why there is this subtle insistence that transsexual people come under the "transgender umbrella", and therefore society can't deny "other transgender" people the rights and acceptance that it's beginning to offer to transsexual people.  all nonsense, of course, but very plausible, and it carries with it a dangerous barb for us.

lumping transsexual people into the transgender camp means that we are viewed as having a psychological problem, and are told to either get over it, or "see a shrink" to have it fixed. as a result, the proper medical treatment of hormones and surgery can become more difficult, if not in some cases impossible to obtain. jobs can be denied. the denial of the right of marriage in some states and countries (due to the belief that "assigned with one sex at birth, means you are always that sex", results in the refusal to change birth certificates) is also reinforced. this creates the possibility of revoking this right in other states and countries, where transsexual people are considered to be transgender, since transgender people are almost never considered by the general public to be any sex other than the one they were assigned to at birth.

being considered transgender does me, a woman born transsexual, more harm than good. why? because it creates the probability that i will be viewed as "born a man, always a man" even though i was never a man. i was born transsexual; i've had treatment for that; i'm anatomically female.

furthermore, it doesn't matter that i've had the corrective surgery, or that i've spent years in therapy, and thousands on hormones, hair removal, other medical treatments and speech therapy; because as a "transgender" individual one's sex never changes from the one you're assigned at birth. it also creates the nasty unspoken subtext of "why can't you just live with what you have, and be happy with it like a cross-dresser, transvestite, she-male, drag queen or other does?"  fyi i'm a woman who was born transsexual. and i'm not "transgender".

[Sarah]

Personally, I would prefer not to be lumped in with GLB.

I have nothing against these groups of people, but the public at large has enough trouble with the T( Transsexual).

Being Transsexual is not a life choice, choosing your partner or significant other is.

Buffy

Being gay, lesbian or bisexual is not a choice any more than being transsexual is. Choosing to live with someone you love is as much of a choice as choosing to transition. Sure, you could not do it, but at what price to yourself?

Dennis

That's actaully not entirely true Dennis.
I am active with our local Pride, and LGBT community, and there are many LGB people who would like to stop asserting that.

For most people, it isn't a choice, but to say that as a blanket statement margenalizes the experience of many people for whom it is.

(The other reason they are against it is because it simply shouldn't matter whether it is a choice or not.

The final being that there are many other things in humanity that peopleare born with that are unacceptable, if the only responnse to why they should have rights is the "biological claim" then by that same argument people who are born skitxzophrenic or psychotic should be able to do what they want. Logically Speaking.

These have nothing to with your statement, but is an interesting note non-theless.)

Posted on: December 30, 2007, 02:44:33 PMIn REsponse to the original Post:

I have thought about this some myself, and I have reached sort of a two-fold conclusion:

One; We do need to stand on our own.

With our own organizations, activism, fundraising, lobbying, etc. We need some sort of form-able as well as fromidable community.

I belive this is true whether or not someone wishes to be "seen as trans" or not. If those who have already transitioned do not help, the next generation will just have to go throught the same stuff they went through, and so I belive they should, in good consience, help.
We need to be able to make big decisions and actions independantly of the GLB groups.

The other things is that I believe we need to be able to work with them on common issues and accept their help when it is offered.
However we should not depend on this help as a crutch, and we need to make it known that our support on their issues, is not unconditional, and that if they use the "t" in their label and yet are not trans-active or trans-inclusive that we will actively brand them as such and as hipocrites. And we need to do so. We ought to create an organization simply to watch the GLB organizations, and post, rate, reward, and chastize those who do a good or bad job of inclusion. An organization has no right to use the "t" in their labeling when they are not trans inclusive.
I feel we need to let them know loud and clear that our participation, and endorsement is not un-conditional
and that if they don't perform, or fall short, we will withdraw and pull out.

And we should do so.

[Hazumu]

I recently read an essay where the writer suggests that the deep-down root cause of the hatred towards the GLBT community might be because the GLBT community renounces procreation.

But the GLB portion retains their fertility.  They could spawn offspring.

Transsexuals, on the other hand, become sterile as part of their transition.  Might this, the the renouncing of fertility, be part of the deep frame that causes the hatred by the Gs and Ls toward the Ts?

Karen

[Ms Bev]

I've never liked the idea of being mixed with gay people.  I have nothing against them.  I just don't think we share the same goals and ideas.  My issues are gender or identity related; they have nothing to do with sex or sexual matters.

Might this, the the renouncing of fertility, be part of the deep frame that causes the hatred by the Gs and Ls toward the Ts?
Karen

I'm glad you kept this a personal dislike.  Not all of us share your point of view. The fact is, WE transsexuals have the same orientation diversity as the general population.  I hate to pop your bubble, but many of us (transsexuals) are lesbian, gay, or bi. 
The whole notion of being disincluded in major human rights issues is a vast generalization.  Yes, I still feel the sting of the HRC when they threw us under the ENDA bus (or did they throw us in the back of the bus?) this year.  Yes, HRC is the biggest, most financially capable gay rights pressure group in the country, but they did not take a vote of their membership at large in regard to their stand on gender identity rights at the last moment. A handful of decision makers in HRC made that lousy decision, so please don't paint the whole lgb community as being uncaring, or not understanding.

I have met so many lovely people, and couples, mostly through my job, that treated me first, as a woman, then specifically as a lesbian woman.  Also, none mentioned if they knew I was ts or not, though it was obvious (to me) that most of them did.  I've had gay couples go waaay out of their way to make sure I was paid my commission; left the store if I was not there, and returned for me.  That's not exclusion behavior, but inclusion behavior.

*sigh* grrrr.

Bev

[Sarah]

Marriage. If a M2F goes through full transition and is legally a woman, her marriage to her wife is now illegal, unless she lives in Massachusetts. If the couple lives in a small handful of other states, they could get a civil union, but will no longer be eligible to receive 1100 plus federal benefits to marriage. Conversely, if the M2F lives in Ohio, she cannot change her birth certificate, so she couldn't legally marry a man. GLBT is currently working toward marriage equality, or civil unions that will have ALL benefits of marriage, and these would be available to any transperson and their partner.

Yes, thank you for posting this, this is very important

Discrimination. Transpeople suffer discrimination in employment, housing and are among the highest victims of violent hate crimes. Most LGBT advocacy groups include gender identity and expression along with sexual orientation in current drafts for anti discrimination and hate crimes bills.

Yes, they don't always do a perfect job in this respect, but I am glad they include us.

Right to serve in military. Currently, a transperson can be discharged from hir position in the military. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell will guarantee transpeople the right to serve their country.

This will also be very helpful if this can be done, a lot of people can and have lost their jobs for this.

There are plenty more rights that concern both LGB and T people. IMO, working together will help us to attain these rights sooner than if we work separately.

I agree. We should be able to stand on our own, and, we have a lot in common and it would be foolish to throw the baby out with the bath water simply because some HRC beuracrats are idiots.

Posted on: December 31, 2007, 03:52:20 PM

And then there's just the lack of cohesive connection for a lot of homosexuals. They look at their situation and go, "this is about who we're attracted to" and they look at us and go, "this is about who they are"

What is the connection? There's really no conceptual connection between our movements. Its entirely being allied on the basis of us having all the same enemies.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." -Unknown

But the thing that really hurts us in the eyes of the reasonable and intelligent homosexuals? The fact that so many of us transition, stealth and disappear.

We're the only group that loses such a huge degree of advocates and fighters to actually leaving the fight to immerse into primary society. Homosexuals can't do that without going back in the closet and it can generate a certain degree of both resentment and anger (resentment because many homosexuals wish to be considered "normal" and anger because its arguably abandoning the fight and making it harder for everyone else)

Yes, I agree with this line of thinking. I completely agree with them on this. I understand the feelings of those who wish to go stealth, but it does not help us. It makes it difficult for those of use who are not, as many of our experienced members of our community are invisible to the public. After going through all that, they go underground, and the help and support they could provide is not availble to the next generation. This just slows the process down.
I'm sorry to those who are, but it really does not seem helpful for the rest of us. There really is no way to change peoples views other than making the need for the change obvious.

[Keira]

You're stealth not because you want to make a political statement, but
because you've had enough of it all and just want to live.

When you've suffered for 20-40 years, you just don't want to deal with
this issue if you can. Who can blame anyone for that!!

I think it would be selfish to say to those, like me and many others, who have suffered so
much for decades, that they should go "once more into the breach" (as Shakespeare would say).
Our very lives for all these years was an flag into the wind of non conformity and
we should be faulted to want a break from this.

Once people have come to peace with themselves and their past and rebuild themselves
an identity, they may or may not come back. Many TS have come out of stealth
after years or decades.

If you're an activist and out, are you in fact living the life that many TS aspire to.
Can you really speak for them. Many stealth are offended that activists TS purport
to speak for them when its obvious they're not.

The only TS that can be advocates
for the TS stealth are those that have given it up after awhile and not those
who have been offended by the very idea of it.

[Dorothy]

You're stealth not because you want to make a political statement, but
because you've had enough of it all and just live.

When you've suffered for 20-40 years, you just don't want to deal with
this issue if you can. Who can blame anyone for that!!

I think it would be selfish to say to those, like me and many others, who have suffered so
much for decades, that they should go "once more into the breach" (as shakespeare would say).
Our very lives for all these years was an flag into the wind of non conformity and
we should be faulted to want a break from this.

Once people have come to peace with themselves and their and rebuild themselves
an identity, they may or may not come back. Many TS have come out of stealth
after years or decases.

If your an activist and out, are you in fact living the life that many TS aspire to.
Can you really speak for them. Many stealth are offended that activists TS purport
to speak for them when its obvious they're not.

The only TS that can be advocates
for the TS stealth are those that have given it up after awhile and not those
who have been offended by the very idea of it.

I wish more people could understand this.

[Sarah]

I do understand that.
And,
It does make it more difficult for the rest of us.

I wouldn't say that one should or shouldn't.

Only you can now in your heart what is best for you.





Posted on: December 31, 2007, 04:28:31 PM

If you're an activist and out, are you in fact living the life that many TS aspire to.
Can you really speak for them. Many stealth are offended that activists TS purport
to speak for them when its obvious they're not.

The only TS that can be advocates
for the TS stealth are those that have given it up after awhile and not those
who have been offended by the very idea of it.

I was just thinking about this...

See the thing is, it's not a matter of whether it is good or bad, it is a matter of which consequences one is willing to accept.

If someone is an activist and out, they will state their own opinion at a meeting or whatever.

That opinion may not be shared by someone who is stealth for instance.

But the very nature of being stealth, means that one who is has effectively taken away their own voice. One has voice if one uses voice.

The person who is an activist does not speak for them neccicarily, but they have to go by what infomation they have, and speak for those who are heard. as best they can.

If one  doesn't hear someones opinion, how are they to represent it in a meeting or activist cause?

Someone who is stealth is Underground.

See what I'm saying?

It's sort of like people who don't vote talking about how the elected officials don't represent them.

They may not be perfect, but they are the only ones speaking publicly for our community other than the GLB's.

[Keira]

But, are the activist really speaking for the stealth, how
can they if they're underground.

I've seen the great disdain many out TS have for the stealth or even the merely passable.
How can you speak for those you don't respect.

The stealth TS has a voice as a women and while this is a smaller voice in a great ocean. It has force by the very strength of the 51% of the population being women. They could actually work from the inside to making sure that women are respected no matter their gender presentation. This would serve by extension any non passable TS post op and non gender conforming women in general.