maybe this will lend perspective...

[togetherwecan]

the images of women we see that we strive to look like are not real....and the reality is the unairbrushed versions are better. Why? Becase they are real.
http://jezebel.com/gossip/photoshop-of-horrors/heres-our-winner-redbook-shatters-our-faith-in-well-not-publishing-but-maybe-god-278919.php

[Dennis]

Why would they take a picture of a very attractive woman and make her look like a barbie doll, with, as one commenter said, the arms of a 7 year old? Just weird. The retouched picture looks way worse than the real one.

Dennis

[Diane]

I agree Dennis

[cindianna_jones]

It is little wonder we have a mixed up perspective of womanhood in this fine land of ours!

They actually changed the shape of her head!  Those bastards!

Cindi

[tinkerbell]

Well, unfotunately most women (not all obviously) would like to see the brushed  picture.  Why?  because most women (especially the younger generation) are really sensitive about nose to mouth lines, puffy eyes, and floppy arms! 

tink

[Keira]

These days, some permanent fillers can take care of the nose to mouth line for not too much money; if they're not too severe, very severe ones are only partially fixable. But, as for everything else, get out of the sun if you want to look 25 at 40 (I'm 2 months away!). Still don't get people not using broad spectrum UVB UVA high SPF sunscreen (60 is the one I got) all the time. I prefer using self-tanners than looking like a shrivelled prune at 50 or before.

[Dorothy]

Its a pity but its what sells.  Argentina, my home country, has one of the highest statistics of anorexia nervosa and bulimia in the entire world.  Women  (ages 13 and over) are obssessed with looking dangerously thin.  On a recent survey, young girls (ages 18 - 30) averaged to weight 43.7 kilograms.  Not healthy if you ask me. 

[Robbie]

One of the things I have a real problem with the MtoF community is their obsession with appearance.  When friends ask me what my transition is about and what are my goals I explain it like this.  When I was a man I had to act everyday that I was happy with the person I was.  I had to act like I enjoyed my role as a man in society.  I don't see it any easier trying to convince people that I am a woman in society.  We should not want to work that hard to maintain an image of femininity that is unrealistic.  It seems that two many of us get caught up in the idea of passing and being stealth that the roots of who we are is lost.  NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals.  I think our community as a whole needs to embrace this more than male or female.  Why do we try and force ourselves to black and white standards of a gendered society that we do not fit into.  Or ever will.  Someone will always know.  Someone will always figure it out.  We will always have to tell someone all about who we were.  We all need to stand more united and let the world know we are transsexual, post-op, pre-op, non-op  because no matter what we will always be transsexual.     

[tinkerbell]

NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals. 

Hmmmm...this is a very universal statement, and I disagree with it.  While I concur with you that I will never be a genetic female, I can assure you that I am a woman through and through.  I don't see myself as a transsexual, just as I don't see myself as "chicken pox" or any other illness for that matter.  Transsexualism is merely a label to indicate a medical condition; hence, it DOES NOT/CANNOT define me as a person or the essence of what/who I am, a woman.

I think our community as a whole needs to embrace this more than male or female.  Why do we try and force ourselves to black and white standards of a gendered society that we do not fit into.       

That is up to each individual.  Most of us transition and have SRS to live normal lives as men and women.  Why should some of us bear the "transsexual label" on our foreheads.  Do we think we are less than someone who was born with XX or XY chromosomes?  Are we only willing to eat the breadcrumbs society throws at us?  Excuse me but I don't think so.  I'm equal as any woman who was born with XX chromosomes and I demand to be treated, respected, and accepted as such.

  Someone will always know.  Someone will always figure it out.  We will always have to tell someone all about who we were. 

I have been living in stealth for many years (almost seventeen years to be exact)  no one knows, no one would ever suspect.  But true, there is always the possibility people could find out my history as there is always the chance I could die in a plane crash, win the lottery, or get raped on the street.  The odds are there; nothing is absolute, but if I'm going to worry about the "what if's", then my life will be totally ruined.

We all need to stand more united and let the world know we are transsexual, post-op, pre-op, non-op  because no matter what we will always be transsexual.     

Again, that is YOUR opinion and I respect it but don't agree with it.  I don't have anything against people who want to become activists; I am just not one of them.  I don't have any obligations with anyone in the TG community, and I am sure most TS folks don't either. Assuming otherwise is offensive in my view, for some of us have endured a lot of pain to be where we are without the help of others or any community.


tink

[NicholeW.]

I have to agree very much with Tink, Robbie. Except that I am not offended so much by your post, just have a different POV. A POV that in other respects is in line with Tink's.

Women are sometimes born with no vaginas. They are sometimes born with a variant chromosomal count or mosaic, they are sometimes born with a neurological intersex. Men are sometimes born with all of the above as well.

Reality is a really big and amorphous word. What I think encompasses Reality always seems to be conditioned by the perspective of that reality from where I happen to be standing. If you stand on Fire Island and I stand in Battery Park, are we both seeing the same view of the Statue of Liberty?

Just so. Some people see reality in chromosomes and some see it in sex organs (Ob/Gyns)  , some see it it in neurological arrangement, and others in a line of mathematical equations that form an idea of a Unified Field in their view.

I would not say that you are wrong, just that your view of Reality does not seem to encompass the same perspective that mine does.

Like a lot women and men who were formerly TS, I don't have huge difficulties with the binary. My reality says that if there are those who do, then they are absolutely right in agitating against that binary. I WILL stand for them when they do so. I will not march with them or otherwise be open about my life for their sakes. But, I will demand that they be treated and looked on with the respect and compassion and given the dignity and opportunity that every human being should have.

For me, TS was a condition, a phase, a state that no longer encompasses me. Just like most tadpoles do not stop their lives at tadpole stage, but morph into what they 'truly' are, I have become the woman I am.

I recognize and support your desire and right to view matters differently. I just do not share your views, or your reality.


Nichole

[Hypatia]

I'm a woman. I will contest anyone who denies my womanhood, and that includes other trans people.

I'm a woman. TS is the route I took to get here. Like the Dixie Chicks sang, "Taking the long way around."

[Robbie]

Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

[Robbie]

Calling it a birth defect is another very common way of hiding from the fact we are trans

[Robbie]

i must get a fresh cup of tea i will be back

[katia]

Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

this is the thing...um..what's your name?...ah yes robbie...if you wanna be known as ts, tattoo the ts label on your forehead or propagandize your ts status on cnn, that's your choice.  just don't expect others to follow you on your crusade.  i dont hide the fact i was born male; it is just my business and no one else's.  that is my choice. you wanna call it hiding? go right ahead, it wont change a thing, will it?  you wanna call it shallow?  go right ahead, will i change my views? never.  you see?  just keep your views to yourself darling because you are not only making a naive person (a.k.a. fool, get it?)  of yourself but also breaking the site rules:

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up

if i thought my womanhood were a fantasy, i'd be very concerned and desperately seeking a second, third or fourth opinions on my so called gender issues...

[debisl]

I dare anyone to tell me I am not a woman. Transsexual has been an avenue to where I am going. I will be a  complete woman in 1 1/2 months. I do consider my self there now.But society does not. I have cried enough tears for thousands. Please let it end!!! When does the hurt stop. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please don't lable all of us in the same boat.

When does the lable making stop. Please stop!We are people of Gods world.

Lets try to help one another. This should be our main concern. We are what we are.
I came to this sit to gain wisdom

Deb

[Seshatneferw]

Calling it a birth defect is another very common way of hiding from the fact we are trans

i disagree.  i was born in the wrong body.  or with the wrong mind.  either way, there is no synchronization between the two.  ergo, there is a defect.

That sounds about right. Now, just what we have to do to deal with this defect varies a lot, and the route one ends up taking depends on not just the severity of the defect but also on things like culture and upbringing. Also, gender and sex can be intertwined in various ways.

Some, like Tink and Nichole, consider themselves women, with a transsexual phase in their history. I see no reason to contest this view: they have changed both their gender expression and sex to match the identity. Close to the other end of the spectrum, my way to cope with the discrepancy was to lose faith in the binary gender system: by now, there's no way I can become either a man or a woman in terms of gender, and my sex is at this point just a birth defect, pretty much like the deformed arm one of my coworkers has. I don't really have issues with my gender any more, just with my body image, which I suppose means I've forfeited my right to the label of transsexual. This, in turn, means I must disagree with Robbie, even though I sort of see where she stands.

  Nfr

[katia]

I dare anyone to tell me I am not a woman. Transsexual has been an avenue to where I am going. I will be a  complete woman in 1 1/2 months.

i dare you!  > kidding!    good luck on your surgery.  mine is next week, on the 29th, just days from now...

[debisl]

Katia as always my best wishes for you. You deserve what you have strived for all of your life. Please send me a PM after you go through the procedure to calm my nerves. I am a nervous wreck.

Deb

[Robbie]

I am not forcing my opinion on anyone by discussing it.  Just as you are not forcing yours on me by discussing it.  I have not questioned anyone's womanhood.  What I have questioned is the way we arrived at our ideals of womanhood.  And the imbalance I see in our community.  Which is what I thought this thread was about. If I have offended any of you I am sorry.  I just want to have a discussion about different points of view. That's all, we are all equal here.    And  Katia I do have it tattooed on my body for all to see.