maybe this will lend perspective...

[Hypatia]

     First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  . 

Oh I believe it and accept it wholeheartedly.  Just don't ever imply that I'm like you or that I feel like you do, because I'm not and I don't.

Jeannette is right.
Robbie, I have no problem at all accepting and even paying homage to your self-definition. But I do contest that your personal insight into your own identity can be generalized to apply to everyone. I hope that isn't what you meant to imply.

When I first read Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein a couple years ago, I found myself agreeing with her on many points, sharing several feelings and experiences with her, and in general seduced by her wicked wit. However, I could never assent to her statement "I'm probably not a woman." She rejects being lesbian too, although she dates women, and gives the reason that she doesn't feel she fits into any lesbian circles. I had problems with her denial of womanhood, since even after I tried real hard to see things from her point of view, I was never able to identify as anything but a woman. And the lesbian circles I knew welcomed me in and made me feel right at home. Lesbian identity just felt so right to me. So Kate and I were not on the same page of music.

Once I got to My Gender Workbook, it became clearer to me how her understanding of gender diverges quite sharply from mine. She's out to smash the binary and thinks that no one ought to identify with any gender at all. Well, that just does not work for me or help me in my personal struggle. So her wit is looking less droll to me now, and I'm getting tired of her anti-gender shtick. I support her personal identification of herself, but I think she got on the wrong track about smashing everyone else's gender. This is to explain why I took issue with Robbie's assertions, which reminded me of Kate's but if I'm mistaken about this, Robbie, I apologize.

Here's one for philosophers:
If a = b
and a != c
does that necessarily mean b != c?

[Christine Eryn]

On the original topic, I'm the kind that would want to perfect the female me as much as I could. When I hear comments like "I'm fine with a B cup" or "150 lbs is great", I'm like, no. I'll have arms the size of paper towel tubes one day and a rack that will attact attention. I'll also have a face that will make people stare and think "gorgeous, was she on the cover of a magazine?"  . I won't sell myself short. I've seen alot of women who were perfectly flawless in real life, not airbrushed. Of course that makes me extremely jealous and I have to silently burn up in my own sorrow. 

Overall, all my life, I've drawn inspiration from the great ones. If I want to look like a photoshopped bimbo or a near perfect clubber I saw with my own eyes, so be it.

[Yvonne]

Lol Chromosomes don't make you who you are.  They only imprint a genetic code.  Here I am, a trans woman born with an intersex  condition known as gonadal mosaicism.  Does that make me a super woman for having the two XX's or am I just a "man" in your view for having the doomed Y chromosome?  Lol, it is a bunch of tripe if you wanna hear my opinion and I don't buy it.  I find it demeaning that someone considers me a man for having a Y chromosome.  it's stupid and ignorant.  Have you got any idea of what you are talking about?  complicated situation, innit?

Why some peeps want to be recognized as trans?  It's my experience that such trans peeps don't pass as women most of the time so the only way to gain respect is by having their voices heard through activist groups.  Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist?  There are some in the community here in Germany.  But they were not always out.  They lived stealth lives for many years.  Had FFS & GRS and lived normal lives for a long time until one day they decided to help the community.  They are the exception not the majority.  The majority of activist trans women don't pass as females (don't want to disrespect anyone.  I'm only pointing out my why's).  the only way they can ask for acceptance is to get together and form activist groups.  that's the reality.  Almost all trans women that pass disappear into society or bond perfectly to their lives w/o any problems.  that's also a reality. Expecting one group to join the other is only a fantasy.  It can happen but it's very unlikely.  I'm sorry but that's how life is. 

[louise000]

I'm not into science or medicine - genes and chromosomes don't mean alot to me, but some advice I was once told was that what you have between your legs doesn't necessarily make you a man or a woman. When I'm feeling bad about myself I cling to that.

[Hypatia]

Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist?

Yes, absolutely. For example: Mara Keisling, director of the National Center for Transgender Equality here in the USA. She isn't a glamour babe, but she looks exactly like what she is--a serious professional woman.


And regardless of my criticism of Kate Bornstein's ideas, as to looks she passes perfectly.

As long as she keeps her wig on, because underneath it she's quite bald. (meow)

Neither of these ladies has a stealth history as far as I know. They've always been out activists.

[katia]

i don't agree with yvonne on most subjects, yet i have to agree with her here.  i haven't seen any passable ts woman who is an activist either.  my idea of [passable] is someone that [cannot] be detected as being ts. (e.g., a combination of physical appearance, voice and demeanor).
imho mara and kate pass more or less ok , yet when they open their mouths, everyone knows they are ts.  no offense to anyone.  i'm just expressing my opinion.  based on my idea of passability, i'm sorry to say but they don't pass.

[Shana A]

Why some peeps want to be recognized as trans?  It's my experience that such trans peeps don't pass as women most of the time so the only way to gain respect is by having their voices heard through activist groups.  Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist? 

Last time I checked, the qualifications for being an activist didn't require being able to pass. What is necessary for that job is an ability to articulate issues clearly, and in a way that might get other people to support your cause, be it transgender equality, global warming, etc. Also, not everyone is concerned with passing, or has the same standards as to how to pass, and that is a personal choice.

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans. If someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Zythyra

[Robbie]

I have not meant to generalize all into my self-definition.  The only reason I wrote it the way I did was to get people to think out side of the norms.  But now it is time to get back on the soap box.  Let's start out with a disclaimer.  In no way shape or form am I trying to offend, generalize, inflame, upset, make cry, cheapen, and make just plain disgruntle.  I did take a break yesterday and did not write much anywhere.  Over indulgence on Wednesday night left the mind cloudy. 

The area in (paragraphs just for you Nero) which I feel the need to concentrate today is in the whole idea of passing, pass ability; activists don't pass or cannot pass.  First off this whole idea of passing is just what I am talking about.  Why?  Why do we put so much emphasis on passing?  Why is that (passing) the mark of a successful transsexual in most of our eyes?    Why is appearance so important?  ** Disclaimer—when I use the word spiritual it is in on way a reference to god** shouldn't it be more of a spiritual journey?  A journey of self discovery.  I have seen to many transsexuals jump on the super highway to GRS after coming out.  The super highway that does not lend time for pit stops to sit and reflect on all that is going on around us and figure out where many of us really belong. 

Being Trans is so much more that just passing.  So much more that HRT, boobs and a nice butt.  So much more that GRS and FFS.  When I have used the word shallow in previous posts this is the kind of stuff I am tailing about.  **disclaimer—I am not calling anyone shallow I think some of the ideas we have about being trans are shallow mine included**   My ability to pass or not pass makes no difference to me ( and to the skeptics I pass with out a problem when I want to .  All I am trying to do here is open honest dialogue about who we are and who we perceive we are.

I love what Zythrya wrote

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans.  if someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Nero—what she wrote is the exact point I am getting at.  I think as a whole we focus too much on perceptions. 

**disclaimer**-- all this is just my opinion I want to discuss it in a civil manner with everyone

[Kate]

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans.  if someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Nero—what she wrote is the exact point I am getting at.  I think as a whole we focus too much on perceptions. 

The problem is, if someone identifies as a woman, then being perceived and treated as a transsexual can be very heartbreaking and frustrating.

I go back and forth on this myself. I appreciate the beauty and poetry of the "Just Being Me regardless of how people see me" philosophy. It reveals a wonderful degree of self-acceptance, one that I struggle to find and hold onto.

But I also can't deny that I don't exist in a vaccuum. Who I am is also partly created through my relationships with other people. I get that you can't spend your life trying to please everyone. I get that people are going to think me ugly, arrogant, mean-spirited, etc. at times. I can deal with that.

But having everyone treating me as if I'm a man... that's different somehow. Then I'm really NOT Kate, except in my own head. I get that I have to START there, and be Kate inside, and show her to the world (and that SO many people seem to get that backwards, trying to become a woman through surgeries and HRT), but if the world doesn't reflect Kate back to me, then the system collapses. There's no validation, no *experience* of being Kate. Just an empty proclamation, lost and dying in the wind.

~Kate~

[debisl]

My God Robbie!
Do we have to put a label on all of us? Transsexual, transgender, gay, lesbian, black, white. We are all Gods children. He dosen't make mistakes. He just has a little longer road for some of us. Do any of us really care for lables??? Why is it so important for some to have a deffenition as to what we are.

I will tell anyone right now and forever "I AM A WOMAN" pure and simple!

This subject really is very offensive to those of us who have been striving to become what we so much deserve to be. A person weather it is female or male.

Deb

[Suzy]

We are all Gods children. He dosen't make mistakes. He just has a little longer road for some of us. Do any of us really care for lables??? Why is it so important for some to have a deffenition as to what we are.
I will tell anyone right now and forever "I AM A WOMAN" pure and simple!
This subject really is very offensive to those of us who have been striving to become what we so much deserve to be. A person weather it is female or male.
Deb

Kristi

[debisl]

The purpose of this forum is to build confidence. Not to tear down someones life long dearms. I never wish to ever be reffered to as a male. Can't you see that!! Can't you?? Lets try hard to build confidence for one another. Aren't most of us here to help?

I know the road is much shorter for me than some of you sweet wonderful folks out there. I owe so much to some of the people here at susans that I just want to repay the debt with something. If there is ever something, some sort of advice, or encouragement I can give please don't be afraid to ask. My god I asked a lot of questions too.

I will promiss you this I do not judge and I do not label, unless you want a label and I will be glad to oblige.

Be Kind
Deb

[Robbie]

Kate—that is by fare one of the best posts I have read in days. 

I do have some of the same frustrations—many of my friends that new me before will not let go of the fact that I am not just a man anymore. It is dishearting to be idendified as just male.   I do want to be seen as a woman in society.  But on my terms.   I really try not to associate with people that do not recognize me at trans. Or try not to understand anything that I have go though with transitioning and what I have to continue to go though.  What I have found is the more people I let in on what my live is all about the more support I find I have.  The more that people accept me for just being the person I am. 

One more thing Kate—isn't the validation and experience of being Kate all with in you.  The only person that lets you not be and feel Kate is you.  And remember you are Kate everyday, every second, every breath.  No one can take that from you, no one can invalidate that.    And if someone wants to invalidate or otherwise hurt you centering on your gender then they are obviously people you don't need or want in you life.  And if strangers do this to you *$#% them.  One of the things I live by is all is every person has something about their lives they can be judged for.  Don't chuck bricks at me until you look at yourself.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 12:31:30 PMDeb,

Go back and re-read everything a little closer.  Isn't all of us just being people no matter what all I have been talking about.  Maybe offended is what you need to be because it makes people think.  Which is all I am trying to do here.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 12:37:56 PMThere is nothing about being trans that is suppose to be some fluffy, lets all set around the camp fire and make each other feel good.  There is a ton on nitty gritty crap that needs to be sorted through.  And it really worries me that number of my Trans friends that have gone all the way and still get offended, upset, and try to ignore the very questions topics I am bring up here.  None of us can live in a place with the attitude "if I just pass and look pretty it will all be ok and no one will ever question me and I will be the woman I feel I am inside."  Our journey is so much deeper that.  And the people that don't recognize offend me which is why I am so passionate about it.  Because they make all Trans people feel and look, trivial and cheap.

[Fer]

Oh bloody hell.  Time to press the ignore button again.  Amazing, amazing, amazing.

[Shana A]

The problem is, if someone identifies as a woman, then being perceived and treated as a transsexual can be very heartbreaking and frustrating.

Great post Kate! One of the problems we all deal with is societal perception of trans as other, and of transwomen or transmen being perceived as somehow less than natal women or men. And it is all to easy to internalize this feeling. Imagine if this stigma weren't attached, how much easier it would be to be who we are, without having to hide our trans histories.

Zythyra

[debisl]

Everyone here most likely has an adgenda, dream, whatever. I have nothing but respect for you Robbie. Your adgenda is yours. Not mine! I do not need a label other than FEMALE. It is my dream! Please don't ruin it for me.

What you are saying might be the absolute truth, but not in my heart and mind.

Robbie I don't meant to argue with you at all and please forgive if it has come across like that. You can take this to the bank! I am a woman

Deb

[Fer]

Everyone here most likely has an adgenda

Yes, I have noticed. 

[Robbie]

No one here is trying to steel the dream of anybody.  Deb you are a woman I have never denied you that.  Nor have I denied anyone else who or what they are.  No one here has been forced into a label by me.  And some of you are right I do have an agenda.  My agenda is to ensure, as many of us as possible think and understand everything about whom and what we are.  No one can deny that people don't have that good of an opinion of us or the way we live our lives. 

This is the very same problem homosexuals had in the seventies and eighties.  But they did not stomp their feet and puff out their lower lip and scream I'm gay and you cannot take that from me.  They brought themselves into the mainstream by knowledge.  They informed people exactly what their lives where about.  Exactly how they live and why. 

Here is another question we all need to answer truthfully.  Why are you doing this and what is your life like?  What do you hope to gain by switching genders? 

How many understand enough about what transsexualism really is.  Would you be able to articulate your answer in such a way to actually make that other person question and ponder what gender is all about? 

Again I have the same goals as many of you do.  I don't like being different any more than any of you.  I want to integrate into society and be seen for me.  And that is and is going to forever be a woman.  I just want myself and everyone else to have such a grasp on what transsexualism is and what it means. The only answer to the question should not be "because I am a woman trapped in the body of a man."  That is not an accurate way to describe anything.  It is also not an answer that will gain the respect of anyone you give it to. 

People are going to challenge us on our thoughts and beliefs everyday.  Where would you rather practice that at?  Here in the security of our forums.  Or when someone asks you a question and makes you and the rest of the Trans community look a fool.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 02:01:29 PMI write the way I do and ask the question I do because I thought I new what being Trans was all about.  Then people started to challenge me and my views.  I had to use logic and fact based arguments to answer the challenges.  Feelings and emotions don't get you far in a debate defending who you are and how you live you life.

[debisl]

Robbie I give up.

I see no use in trying to justify the WHY. My friends know the WHY, and that is all that matters to me.

Have the most wonderfull day anyone can.

Deb

[Melissa]

Again I have the same goals as many of you do.  I don’t like being different any more than any of you.  I want to integrate into society and be seen for me.  And that is and is going to forever be a woman.  I just want myself and everyone else to have such a grasp on what transsexualism is and what it means to them that the only answer they have to the question above is because I am a woman trapped in the body of a man.  That is not an accurate way to describe anything.

Well, this paragraph certainly speaks volumes about your perspective.  The way it is worded is that you have not already integrated into society and are seen as you.  Well, some of us have already done that and are seen as the people we are.  I just don't feel those of us who have done so should regress only to be seen as either "a woman who used to be a man" or a" man who looks like a woman", just because you are still trying to figure things out.  Have you ever tried stealth before?  Did you know that GGs (or those in stealth) are treated differently than those who are known as trans-women?  Yes, there IS a difference.  I've experienced both and I know that I prefer to be treated with respect than like a third-class citizen.  Like it or hate it, that's just the reality of it.