Why is it hard for MtFs to find straight men who will accept them?

[suzifrommd]

I've heard many tales of woe from MtFs about trying to date straight men. My therapist, who has treated trans women for over 20 years says that, while she's known many trans women who successfully partner, she has never seen a relationship between a trans woman and a straight man survive the man finding out that the woman is trans. Unless he knows from the start, the news that his date/girlfriend/partner/wife is transgender has ultimately ended the relationship. This holds true whether he finds out on the first date, the wedding night, or the 20th anniversary. Sure, maybe it happens occasionally, but her point is that it is very rare.

I can imagine only two reasons why this would be. Either
(1) Men are prejudiced against trans women. They're blind to the fact that dating/loving/marrying a trans woman would be just as fulfilling/satisfying/interesting/intimate/etc. as a cis woman, or
(2) It isn't prejudice. Men are seeing clearly that there really is a difference between trans women and cis women when it comes to romance.

What do you think?

[Cindy]

What an interesting and well thought question!

Given the profile of some of the TG models and their beauty, and the sheer good looks of many of the girls here, it can not be for lack of 'desire'.

Is it because we cannot breed? How many men would (choose to) marry a sterile cisgirl?

Which of course does not account for older men and women.

I thought I had an answer on previous male socialization, but of course that is irrelevant for men who already accept you as a partner and then find out.

My only thought at the moment is that the male psyche is quite fragile, if his friends discover 'the secret' he is seen among his peers as 'a poofter' or something and that threatens his manhood. Men never wish to be seen as anything different from the stereotype - look at their clothing regime - you have to look and act like a man. Whatever that is, even if they do not wish to.


My BF's have all been very self centered strongly opinionated men who don't care how they are perceived, and are in a social position where is does not matter. They, I think, like my brain more than my body, must do because there ain't much body to like

Nice question!

[jennyfer]

Is it significant that the news was not shared at the outset of the relationships - is there a trust issue that helps cause the poor outcomes?

[AnonyMs]

I wonder if its really a 100% rate?

Trust is a good point, but I don't think it would cause such a high rate. I know that trust is very important to me, but I think I'm far to one end of a spectrum with that.

Perhaps the hetro/gay thing is wired in really deep for many, and its very hard to overcome? Could be social or genetic, I've no idea.

Personally I'm very tolerant in my behavior towards some of these things, even when I find them disturbing. I regard the fault as mine, but I can't overcome the emotions.

[suzifrommd]

Is it significant that the news was not shared at the outset of the relationships - is there a trust issue that helps cause the poor outcomes?

I thought about that.

But in just about every other case, building a relationship involves getting to know someone, right?

You don't tell someone on the first date that you're a cancer survivor, that you had an appendix operation, that your house burned down two years ago, or any one of a thousand details about your life. You don't hear of people storming out of someone's life because they waited until the 5th date to mention that their father used to be a paratrooper. Withholding that information would not be seen as an issue of trust.

But somehow, being transgender is different. There is a sense among a lot of people that a gender transition in one's past is something we owe it to our partner to tell at the outset.

That would imply that it has in impact on the woman's suitability as a romantic interest. Make sense?

So we get back to the original question: Why?

[Beth Andrea]

I wouldn't think prejudice plays a part in many (perhaps most?) men...its a concern of what society, specifically their man friends and their family would think.

Dating or marrying a cancer survivor is one thing; dating an "it" is quite another. My ex's family (men and women alike) were very vocal about this before I even thought about transitioning, and my ex often said "but what will my family think? And other people (friends and strangers)?"

Peer pressure is very powerful at any age, imho.

[Jenna Marie]

I do wonder if the main reason is what everyone else has touched on - not *his* prejudice, but society's. Which is, unfortunately, a "real difference" between a trans and a cis woman; the trans woman comes with a bonus package of drama and bigotry that is NOT her fault but will spill over onto him anyway. (I've seen articles to this effect, that celebrities who've dated trans women get treated as freaks or perverts, for example.) Of course, the same is true for other women who are part of a minority, and it's still kind of cowardly to flee a relationship on that basis alone... especially when it's a situation where he found out later, so presumably no one else in his life knows either [yet?].

[Eva Marie]

I wouldn't think prejudice plays a part in many (perhaps most?) men...its a concern of what society, specifically their man friends and their family would think.

Dating or marrying a cancer survivor is one thing; dating an "it" is quite another. My ex's family (men and women alike) were very vocal about this before I even thought about transitioning, and my ex often said "but what will my family think? And other people (friends and strangers)?"

Peer pressure is very powerful at any age, imho.

I think that Beth & Cindy nailed it - it's men's fragile ego paired with society's view of us as a less than desirable choice because of our past. Men risk getting labeled as gay by their bros if they date us and being ejected from the male brotherhood, and no hetero male wants that.

I hate to relate this but it's true - I am still a member of another forum from my past life that is heavily populated by alpha male types (think gun owning, ultra conservative, macho manly men types) - I only swing by that forum occasionally to check up on a couple of old friends from that era, other than that I don't really participate there anymore. That forum is a great resource to figure out how guys think, because there is a definite pecking order and they weed out and run off weak guys really quickly (guess I fooled them  ).

There have been several threads posted there in the past regarding some of the most gorgeous trans women (such as Jenna Talackova), and other threads regarding a few trans related topics. Their opinion is that even she is less than a woman in their eyes, and anyone that dates them is gay or has a fetish and must be avoided, and that trans issues are repugnant in general and that being trans is a choice.

These are the headwinds that we face when trying to find a guy - this uber male/avoiding-the-gay/peer pressure thing is very, very embedded in men.

It takes a special man (or woman) to be secure enough in themselves to be able to look past our history and see the actual person that we are. The trick is in finding those people.

[Athena]

I think it has more to do with fear. "If I date a trans woman what does that make me".

[Irva]

My 2 cents here.
I was a straight one, just slightly bi.
Now I am more a lesbian, to MTF post op women mostly.
/Tho I never met such one special yet/.
I just want 100% passability like me and orgasm-poss vagina like mine.

About men. Too many just stupid and unpleasant jerks.
But.. As we all read, many of American post op women of previous decades are/were happily married to straight men!! So why not now the same thing?!
It's weird..

[androgynouspainter26]

I agree with White Rabbit; fear is tantamount in this prejudice, as is misogyny.  Julia Serano says quite insightfully in her book Whipping Girl that the root of much of the transphobia in the world is classical misogyny because the very thought of someone "stooping to the level of" a woman willingly is very damaging to everything our culture teaches about men and women, and on a subconscious level it scares the, er, hebe-jebies about of them.  Also, since men still are taught in a subtle way that they are entitled to women, therefore they see fit to dictate our gender, calling in invalid.  This is what she says, though of course not in such deliberate terms.  Nobody intentionally partakes in any of this; it's a good book and worth reading.

Part of it is also internalized homophobia, and unfair cultural attitudes-most men  are afraid of being seen as gay, and therefore won't date a trans woman.  I've dated several straight guys before (both knew I was trans from the start, but didn't know if I had had "the surgery" so I highly doubt it was a kink for either of them), and both of them seemed to be incredibly accepting of gay people, more so than most cis males I've met.  I think that plays a part in their willingness to date a trans woman: They aren't afraid to be called gay.  They are secure enough in their own sexualities, and aware enough of their own identities that they don't care.  I still don't pass one hundred percent of the time, so finding someone who isn't afraid is key.

[Ms Grace]

I thought there were plenty of straight guys out there "accepting" of transwomen...certainly some are very genuine but the rest are supposedly ->-bleeped-<-s. What is the difference? Presumably it is that the ->-bleeped-<- is interested in us (primarily or only) because we are trans? And yeah, I can see why most transwomen wouldn't be interested in that kind of fetishised/objectifying relationship.

As for the majority of straight guys I don't think a single answer fits all. I imagine it is complex, involving a mix of issues around social attitudes, perceptions of masculinity, personal prejudice, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and male ego. Sadly we're still not seen as "real" women by the vast majority of society, the fact that we were merely born with a birth defect is all they need to know to write us off as "fakes". For straight men, the revelation that their woman once had (or still has) a penis means, they believe, that their own sexuality is called into question. "Are they really gay?" "Is their woman partner a "gay man in disguise"?" I'm only surmising but that's my take on it.

I wonder if the same issue exists for trans guys and straight women.

At any rate, I'm still primarily only interested in women, but I presume there are cis lesbians who have a similar prejudice against trans women??

[Ltl89]

I would say it's a part of category a and b.  There are common features on transwomen that some guys may not be attracted to, including the obvious one.   Even though it hurts to know that very few men could ever find someone like me attractive,  i don't think that makes them bigots.  It just hurts.  As for the ones who are all into a girl until they discover,  most of those people are operating on homophobia and transphobic views.  If that is the only reason they don't want to be with one of us, then it's because of transphobia.   And I'm not saying they are bad people either.   I get that there is a lot of social stigma in dating a transexual.   It just sucks that there is as we deserve to find love just like any other person. But i get why people judge for this reason.   Hell,  I've had to deal with internalized transphobia myself, so I can't expect a cis guy to be more understanding about my situation tHan I have been on myself.   And I'm not saying it's right that it turns out that way,  just that I understand why it often is.

[Beth Andrea]

I think that Beth & Cindy nailed it - it's men's fragile ego paired with society's view of us as a less than desirable choice because of our past. Men risk getting labeled as gay by their bros if they date us and being ejected from the male brotherhood, and no hetero male wants that.

I hate to relate this but it's true - I am still a member of another forum from my past life that is heavily populated by alpha male types (think gun owning, ultra conservative, macho manly men types) - I only swing by that forum occasionally to check up on a couple of old friends from that era, other than that I don't really participate there anymore. That forum is a great resource to figure out how guys think, because there is a definite pecking order and they weed out and run off weak guys really quickly (guess I fooled them  ).

There have been several threads posted there in the past regarding some of the most gorgeous trans women (such as Jenna Talackova), and other threads regarding a few trans related topics. Their opinion is that even she is less than a woman in their eyes, and anyone that dates them is gay or has a fetish and must be avoided, and that trans issues are repugnant in general and that being trans is a choice.

These are the headwinds that we face when trying to find a guy - this uber male/avoiding-the-gay/peer pressure thing is very, very embedded in men.

It takes a special man (or woman) to be secure enough in themselves to be able to look past our history and see the actual person that we are. The trick is in finding those people.

Everyone's favorite EBR forum?  I also spent some time on there, until 4-5 years ago.

[Rainbow Dash]

3 men have already proved this to me already. Guys just want to F#$%! it always comes down to sex. If you dont have a vag, you're not worth the time. Even an FtM proved it to me.

[Julia-Madrid]

This really is a complex one, and nothing we as transwomen can do or say will fully mitigate the risks of some future rejection by a guy. 

Suzi, your question is thoughtful, but permit me to recast it a little, if I may...

Most men are fairly traditional in what they want from a partner. Companionship, sex, bragging rights to their friends.  You can understand that the disclosure of one's trans status would knock all but a very few who have a more open gender and orientation schema. 

But I truly don't believe we are looking for a needle in a haystack here.  Many of us in our 30s, 40s, or beyond have exactly the same trouble as our cis sisters.  I have a bunch of great girlfriends, smart professional women, all of them, and we are all single.  Certainly part of the issue is that the pool of available men is quite small for us, but it's also that a lot of the stuff out there is totally and utterly underwhelming!  And we know it. 

Another thing I want to add, which is also related to those of us in our 30s and beyond is the nature of love and attraction.  Someone once mentioned to me that when you get married before your 30s its for love; afterwards it becomes more of a business relationship.  Cynical perhaps, but there is some truth in it.

So, all considered, as a way of dealing with this issue practically, my feeling is that most men I meet won't even get past the first date. A tiny number will reach the second date.  I don't want to waste time trying to win over the wrong guy: by date 3 he gets to know the news, and if it's hasta luego I haven't wasted much time.   My cis girlfriends do pretty much the same thing.

We should worry less.

Hugs to my dear sisters
Julia

[Eva Marie]

Everyone's favorite EBR forum?  I also spent some time on there, until 4-5 years ago.

You were pretty close - it's a local car social/car racing/illegal street racing related forum in a city I used to live in. I used to be heavily involved in the car scene, and being a local site people could and would get together periodically (and fist fights would likely ensue ). It was as close to male bonding as I ever got - I was accepted because of my knowledge of cars and racing but I never felt enough like a guy to be comfortable around everyone else.

[kelly_aus]

At any rate, I'm still primarily only interested in women, but I presume there are cis lesbians who have a similar prejudice against trans women??

Yes, there are cis lesbians with a similar prejudice.. Sadly for those of us over 30ish, it seems to be the older women who are more likely to have an issue.. I will also admit that I will take 'You have a penis.' as an acceptable rejection.. Rejecting me simply for being trans? That's going to cause me to say something..

[androgynouspainter26]

Even younger cis lesbians won't even consider dating a trans girl :/

And, it's a lot harder to pass to a queer girl and then convince her to hang around once she finds out.

[stephaniec]

the only answer I have is ; why does it have to be a straight man ? A male body is a male body. A male mind is a male mind no matter where on the spectrum they fall. Your kind of putting yourself in an unnecessary corner by defining a lover as a heterosexual straight male who by definition only wants cis female partners As to why heterosexual males don't want people who elect to live opposite their birth gender  it's the way I grew up , the society and community I was raised in , grade school, high school ,college, work force why expect it to be different. Society is changing , but there is such a long road to travel .