Hot flashes after drinking soy milk?

[Nolin]

Two years ago when I was 15 years old, I read online that soy can have estrogenic effects in some people. Since then, I have been drinking anywhere from 0.3 to 3.0 litres of soy milk a day, proportional to my dysphoria. I still have to wait for a psychological report before I can start anti-androgens or estrogen (I'm MtF).

Anyway, the first few times I drank soy milk, I would get a hot flash about 120 minutes after ingestion. This effect went away after a week or so and I didn't put much thought to it. According to the wiki page, hot flashes are due to reduced levels of FSH and reduced levels of estradiol, and from what I read, soy milk has a slight anti-androgenic effect due to competiting for the same receptors that androgens bind with, and also has a slight estrogenic effect. It seems like there's a connection but I don't understand how exactly it works.

I don't know if it's relevant, but another observation is slight permanent breast development under my nipples, although it's mostly only under my left nipple and is small enough to be covered by it. When I increase my soy milk intake, it's usually quite tender for a few days to a week and then goes back to normal.

I was wondering if my observations have any significance? How exactly could the hot flashes be explained, anyway?

[Dee Marshall]

I know that soy milk used to make me feel a bit dizzy and stoned. That was long before I realized I was trans. It's an unusual enough reaction that it may be related to the condition. I stopped using it after I realized. Didn't have hot flashes that I recall.

[Julia-Madrid]

Hi Nolin

Please try to be careful with phytoestrogens.  While I think a moderate consumption of soy milk is no bad thing (I do it myself due to lactose intolerance), perhaps 3 litres a day might not be quite what the doctor would have ordered.

Are you working towards entering a formal HRT program?

Regards
Julia

[adrian]

Soy milk can lower blood pressure afaik, it's also a very allergenic food. Just saying .

One of my reactions to food I don't tolerate are hot flashes. Thanks, histamine.

[Nolin]

Hi Nolin

Please try to be careful with phytoestrogens.  While I think a moderate consumption of soy milk is no bad thing (I do it myself due to lactose intolerance), perhaps 3 litres a day might not be quite what the doctor would have ordered.

Are you working towards entering a formal HRT program?

Regards
Julia

I am trying to enter a formal HRT program. It's just that where I live (the Netherlands), I have to follow the national transgender program, and they're low on staff. As a result, I had to wait for over a year just for the first appointment, and now it's been about 7 months since the first appointment, I still have to see the psychiatrist to confirm if I actually "qualify", and at the moment it'll take at least about 2 months before I can start anti-androgens and/or HRT. Since phytoestrogens bind to the same receptors, I intend to switch over to normal milk when I start HRT, so it doesn't interfere.

I don't always drink that much soy milk; it's just that drinking it seems to calm down my gender dysphoria, possibly because of the knowledge that it contains phytoestrogens, or because of the phytoestrogens themselves. While my feelings about my gender have changed quite wildly for a long time, from "I'm most certainly meant to be a girl" to "It's too late, I should just give up" to "I don't want to become a man" to "Maybe gender doesn't really matter anyway" and then looping, one of the constant things if my fear to masculinize. Sometimes my thoughts have a tendency to get sucked up in trans* subjects, and when that happens I usually come out of it with a determination to change and the feeling that I should do something, only to be reminded that the only thing I can officially do is wait. That's why at such times I end up drinking nothing but soy milk, hence the excessive intake at some times; after all, even regardless of whether or not it is actually effective, it feels like it's the only thing I can do.

The reason I posted this thread was because I spent the days around Christmas trying to figure out my feelings for sure again, and as a result my dysphoria got worse and I felt like I had to do something, so I'm currently drinking soy milk like a lunatic again. Then I remembered how at first, two years ago, I got hot flashes when drinking soy milk, which I then linked to estrogen deficiency, making me worry that the soy milk might have an effect opposite of what I intended. So I thought I'd see if there was a scientific explanation that could give some insight to reassure me.

However, I just took another good look at the wiki page on hot flashes, and apparently it can also be a sign of testosterone deficiency instead and is associated with anti-androgens, meaning it might have the effect I intended after all. However, what worries me then is that I only had hot flashes at first, and then after a week I didn't anymore, meaning that on the long term it might actually have an averse effect, either leading to an increase in testosterone as a reaction to the deficiency, or making me resistant to the anti-androgenic effect. This could also be supported by the observation that I only noticed any other effects that could be caused by phytoestrogens, like breast development, when I increased the soy milk intake.

I have a tendency to worry. Do you think my concerns are justified? Or does someone have an insight that I'm overlooking?

[Julia-Madrid]

Hi Nolin

I totally understand, and also comprehend fully the various mental states that you loop through.  Quite similar for many of us.

So is there no way for you to move forward privately in the Netherlands, so that, if you feel that you do need HRT, you can at least begin with it?

I can't really assuage your concerns regarding what might be happening to produce your hot flashes in any meaningful way, but perhaps you are worrying unnecessariy.

Regards
Julia

[Steph34]

I consumed soy products, usually tofu, for years before transitioning because I thought they were beneficial in slowing masculinization, so maybe I can help.

The fact that you have sensitivity in the breast area after high consumption is a good sign. Anything that causes that, is something I highly recommend until you can get real hormones.

Soy isoflavones block DHT, which is a much more potent androgen than testosterone itself. There is also a slight estrogenic effect. I have never heard anyone in a male body say that soy actually makes them more masculine. Indeed, many men swear at soy.

I have a feeling that the 'hot flashes' could actually be due to the high protein content. Protein increases metabolism and muscle mass, leading to feelings of warmth.

The anti-androgenic effects of soy isoflavones are way too weak to cause hot flashes due to low testosterone. That 'desirable' effect unfortunately does not hold.

It is unlikely that the hot flashes are due to interference with internal estrogen production. Such hot flashes only occur when testosterone levels are low as well. The 'wrong' body produces so little estrogen that it has no feminizing effect when drowned out by testosterone, as it certainly will be in the absence of medication.

Soy affects estrogen receptors more so than androgen receptors. It may interfere with feminization caused by hormones, because it competes with estradiol at the receptor sites and estradiol is much more potent.

So to summarize, I strongly recommend soy consumption pre-HRT because it can't hurt and might help. I discourage it while taking feminizing hormones because it can't help and might hurt.

[Nolin]

I totally understand, and also comprehend fully the various mental states that you loop through.  Quite similar for many of us.

I'm happy to hear someone understands my feelings. This is the first time I've posted anything on a forum for transgenders, and for some reason I was afraid I wouldn't fit or seem weird.

So is there no way for you to move forward privately in the Netherlands, so that, if you feel that you do need HRT, you can at least begin with it?

About the protocol where I live, I may not know everything, but the only way to get HRT as a transsexual that I know of is by going to one of the national gender teams, which you need to be referred to by your GP when they think you may be transsexual, after which you'll be placed in a queue and eventually the gender team will send you a letter for the intake appointment. I'd figure the only way to move forward privately would be through illegal methods like importing hormones or using another person's medication - and I wouldn't know how to go about either of them even if I wanted to. Rather, I think it's better to do it with medical supervision, and the only way to do that is by following the protocol at the gender team. That way, the costs will also be covered by insurance, which is nice.

The protocol at the gender team I go to essentially consists of three phases: firstly, diagnostics/research. How long this takes depends on the clarity of the case, and it is meant to minimize the risk of regret after the treatment. After that, there's a real life phase that takes 12-18 months, where you supposedly present as the desired gender while on HRT. Then if you passed the real life phase, options for surgery (in particular SRS) become available. Currently I'm still in the diagnostic phase.

That's how it's officially described, and as seen it assumes surgery to be the goal. However, I'd personally just like to take it one step at a time and see what it takes for me to be happy. I do intend to start presenting as female when I start university next year, though. Surgery seems scary so I'll only consider it if not doing it turns out to be a problem for me. I'm not sure what other people's opinions on that are, though.

I consumed soy products, usually tofu, for years before transitioning because I thought they were beneficial in slowing masculinization, so maybe I can help.

The fact that you have sensitivity in the breast area after high consumption is a good sign. Anything that causes that, is something I highly recommend until you can get real hormones.

Soy isoflavones block DHT, which is a much more potent androgen than testosterone itself. There is also a slight estrogenic effect. I have never heard anyone in a male body say that soy actually makes them more masculine. Indeed, many men swear at soy.

I have a feeling that the 'hot flashes' could actually be due to the high protein content. Protein increases metabolism and muscle mass, leading to feelings of warmth.

The anti-androgenic effects of soy isoflavones are way too weak to cause hot flashes due to low testosterone. That 'desirable' effect unfortunately does not hold.

It is unlikely that the hot flashes are due to interference with internal estrogen production. Such hot flashes only occur when testosterone levels are low as well. The 'wrong' body produces so little estrogen that it has no feminizing effect when drowned out by testosterone, as it certainly will be in the absence of medication.

Soy affects estrogen receptors more so than androgen receptors. It may interfere with feminization caused by hormones, because it competes with estradiol at the receptor sites and estradiol is much more potent.

So to summarize, I strongly recommend soy consumption pre-HRT because it can't hurt and might help. I discourage it while taking feminizing hormones because it can't help and might hurt.

You sure know a lot about soy! Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

The high protein content explanation sounds plausible! It was really bothering me what could have caused it, so hearing something innocent like that is quite calming.

As for the part about blocking DHT, how do soy isoflavones block it, anyway? And how effectively do they block it? Just hypothetically, could actions that increase the conversion from testosterone to DHT actually increase the anti-androgenic effect of soy isoflavones, due to there being slightly less testosterone and more DHT, while the DHT is blocked, resulting in an effective decrease of testosterone? It'd be kind of ironic if that were the case.

[Peebles]

Yeah, during my last months before HRT I was Soy Milk junkie amd drank it all the time.

I don't honestly think it did anything for me in hindsight outside of making my urine stick. It helped me pull through the days though.

[Steph34]

That's how it's officially described, and as seen it assumes surgery to be the goal. However, I'd personally just like to take it one step at a time and see what it takes for me to be happy. I do intend to start presenting as female when I start university next year, though. Surgery seems scary so I'll only consider it if not doing it turns out to be a problem for me. I'm not sure what other people's opinions on that are, though.

Try not to think too much about it yet; desire for surgery should come naturally if it is necessary. It does seem scary, but may be necessary to ease dysphoria and bring testosterone levels down as low as possible. I know my T is still too high and it makes me very uncomfortable to have so much T and to feel/see the junk all the time... I know I need surgery.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

You're welcome.

As for the part about blocking DHT, how do soy isoflavones block it, anyway?

The exact mechanism remains unclear, but there has been research finding decreased DHT due to soy.

And how effectively do they block it?

I seem to recall there is about a 15% decrease, which is enough to notice if one is sensitive to its effects, but not enough to have a great impact on health. With that said, it is plausible that a higher dose would be more effective.

Just hypothetically, could actions that increase the conversion from testosterone to DHT actually increase the anti-androgenic effect of soy isoflavones, due to there being slightly less testosterone and more DHT, while the DHT is blocked, resulting in an effective decrease of testosterone?

No. DHT and testosterone are both androgens, and DHT is more masculinizing than testosterone. For that reason, medications that reduce DHT decrease masculinization, even if they also raise testosterone! Since DHT is much less abundant than testosterone, however, it stands to reason that both testosterone and DHT cause masculinization and should be blocked. But anything that decreases DHT is good even if it raises testosterone by a small percentage.

As an aside, I think you have a very clear and feminine writing style.

100th post

[ImagineKate]

I never drank soy milk and honestly I've never felt anything with any other soy products. Maybe I should try some lol.

When I was a kid/teen we would cook almost exclusively with soybean oil. This was because of tariffs on corn where we lived and local farmers did not produce enough. Dunno if that has had an effect.

[Steph34]

I never drank soy milk and honestly I've never felt anything with any other soy products. Maybe I should try some lol.

Soy milk has a higher isoflavone content than most other soy products. Although I never drank it, it does taste rather good when used in cereal or to make non-dairy macaroni and cheese. I regret not using it more often because it did make me feel and look slightly better when I did pre-HRT. With that said, I do not recommend it to you because you are already taking a feminizing hormone and the isoflavones could interfere with that.

When I was a kid/teen we would cook almost exclusively with soybean oil. This was because of tariffs on corn where we lived and local farmers did not produce enough. Dunno if that has had an effect.

Soybean oil does not contain isoflavones and therefore has no feminizing potential. With that said, it does have a high polyunsaturated fat content and favorably affects cholesterol levels. Both of those facts slightly reduce testosterone if it is used instead of other types of fat, and therefore it could have been helpful in slowing masculinization.

[ImagineKate]

FWIW, the very synthetic bio identical estrogens (I.e. Not Premarin) we take are synthesized from soy and yams. That does not mean by itself it will feminize you significantly, but it is interesting nonetheless that the starting point for our feminizing hormones are those plants.