Bottom Surgery without Transition

[Dee Marshall]

Thanks for the advice, Dee! I like your idea of just being up front and hoping to strike gold, but I fear that I won't find a pair who really understand me and are willing to help. From a doctor's perspective, they probably just see me as a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen. I'll definitely try it when I'm ready to go through with this (readiness having to do more with finances than anything else).

If that fails I'll just have to go with plan B- try to fool them. I'm curious what you mean by them being "clueless" - I have actually done a lot of cross dressing, make up and voice practice in private - not out of any desire to genuinely present as female, but solely to have a good chance at fooling them. I feel like as long as I look the part and say all the right things, they can't just declare that I'm not "real". After all, it's not unheard of for people to go through the whole transition, bottom surgery and all, and then eventually transition back (for example "Joe Mangina" who was mentioned earlier in the thread, who lives as a man and is perfectly happy having a vagina). If those people could pull it off, why not me?

Non-binary probably best describes me as I don't feel fully male, nor really female. I would just prefer to remain in the male social role because that's what I'm used to. I might just be agender, honestly. I feel like if I had been born female, I'd be equally OK with it, I'd just go along with what I'm used to and have no desire to transition to male. Only in that case I'd be happy with my genitals to begin with.

See! You said exactly the right thing to get your point across. Therapists who believe in non-binary would understand completely. Therapists dig deep into your life to understand, at least the good ones do. Maintaining a lie in the face of that can be daunting. If you do get caught be honest. Tell them that the charade was entirely because you're very unhappy living as you are. That's really all they want to see, that and no likelihood of wanting to transition back. People who do that might sue.

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

[xdreamr]

See! You said exactly the right thing to get your point across. Therapists who believe in non-binary would understand completely. Therapists dig deep into your life to understand, at least the good ones do. Maintaining a lie in the face of that can be daunting. If you do get caught be honest. Tell them that the charade was entirely because you're very unhappy living as you are. That's really all they want to see, that and no likelihood of wanting to transition back. People who do that might sue.

Thanks for the encouragement! I really hope that this can work but everything I've heard about "gatekeepers" and the standard of care suggests that they're usually intolerant of non-traditional gender expressions. You have to convince them that you really strongly identify with another gender, or else they think you're either just wasting their time or you're mentally ill and then they won't help you. It seems like all these hoops you have to jump through were placed there solely to prevent people like me from fixing ourselves, which is why I'm afraid of being honest.

[Gail20]

I pass pretty well at 65 and have been out 100% socially for 12 years. Still, if I want to run to the store no way am I going to do my hair and some day makeup.  I put on a ball-cap pants and shirt and head to the store.  Its just easier.  I'm retired but I have a nice part time job in a hardware store where I open the store 2 days a week and close it 2 days. I do the same there too. I had SRS 2 weeks ago so I will likely get a job after the first of the year as myself.  After them covering for me for 6 weeks I''m going to support them thru the Holidays at least. My therapist knows all about this and thinks, as I do, that its just makes sense. . . .since I know who I really am . .  .

[EmmaLoo]

If you're going to take bottom surgery without HRT, you may get very dangerous and risky consequences. You can get osteoporosis, a skeleton disease and you can die.
Your body would not produce any testosterone post-op and without taking HRT the body wouldn't work. The body needs hormones to live. But it's up to you how you want to transistion and what you want to do to your own body.

You may want to do some additional research. There have been eunuchs now for at least 4000 years with recent studies showing castration actually increases lifespan. HRT is a fairly modern addition to a medical intervention aimed specifically at the needs of the Transgender population to alter secondary sex traits. Sure, there is a slight increase in risk for Osteoporosis but that can be mitigated without HRT.

I'm sure you aren't deliberately trying to scare people about this, nevertheless, let's try not pass on inaccurate information concerning the risk of not pursuing HRT after surgery.

[TinaVane]

I don't see a issue with it. You could just be a trans man if you got the op from male to female. Or just a real butch lesbian type ... but we all know most in this trans community become caricatures of what a woman should be.
Keyword here is "most"


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[Chrissym]

Hi

I had pretty much what you describe in that i did no RLE or HRT prior to SRS. A lot of the concerns raised preciously are valid especially the health issues due to lack of any hormones. It also depends why you want to do it for as the novelty wears off pretty quickly and then you are basically left as a guy with a vagina.

However if it is something you truly want as I did Id say go for it!

[elkie-t]

It also depends why you want to do it for as the novelty wears off pretty quickly and then you are basically left as a guy with a vagina.

How does it feel? Do you date and if so whom and how do you find your partners?

I wondered many times if it might be the best route for me if I ever have ability to transition? To start with a bottom surgery (cutting T and getting legal recognition), dealing with face hair  and low dose HRT, transitioning socially when face is ready...

[Chrissym]

Hi elkie-t

To be honest i struggled for the first few months post op. I did it completely on my own so i had no support and since i was still outwardly male, no one had any idea what i was going through. Trust me in that no matter what you may think, being a man without a penis requires a number of adjustments, especially if you dont want people to know.

I haven't dated as of yet but about 6 months ago i confided in my gay housemate when he discovered i was wearing womens underwear and we have had sex a few times since. To be honest i am not really interested in a relationship at the moment but i recently started HRT so i am concentrating on that at the moment.

Would a reccomend they way i did it? To be honest it was very very difficult and just from a support point of view i would suggest doing it the mainstream way, but in my mind if this is something you truly want then go for it!

[elkie-t]

I would love to know what kind of adjustments did you have to make? And what challenges did you have to overcome? If uncomfortable to post here, feel free to pm me


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[Chrissym]

I would love to know what kind of adjustments did you have to make? And what challenges did you have to overcome? If uncomfortable to post here, feel free to pm me


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More than happy to share my experience and answer and questions you have but its probably easiest over chat or something similar but the basics are as follows:

First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

I know that sounds really negative and while all that is true, for me all of that is offset by the fact that for the first time in my life it just looks normal down there and while the novelty has well and truly worn off, i wouldnt have it any other way. However if it is something you seriously want to do, be aware of the reality and not the dream.

Now i had mine without any RLE or HRT so preop i was a big hairy 6 foot man and I became a big hairy 6 foot man with a vagina as described above. Suffice to say it was a struggle dealing with the reality of it all especially during the healing period.

Day to day, life as a man assumes you have a penis, especially if you actually have had one for 30 years. Most of the issues i had with hiding the fact i had a vagina are probably similar to the experiences some ftm have so checking out their forums might be useful. For me the biggest things were as follows:

• lack of bulge - you are always conscious of it and unless you are using a packer, certain types of clothes can really make it obvious
• toilets and peeing - i work in the construction industry and i also do a lot of driving. The lack of sit down toilets becomes very noticable when you have to sit down to pee. Driving long distances can also be a drag in actually having to make toilet stops rather than finding a roadside tree. Its an adjustment anyway but making it work in an almost male only construction industry can be challenging. Randomly the sound women make when peeing is different to that of a man, even a man sitting down
• clothing choice - related to my first point but are you going to wear male only clothing or mix and match. Especially recently post op, sanitary pads are your friend and they dont sit very well in male underwear. Alternatively, womens underwear will fit better but the band may be a big giveaway to people
• Relationships - for obvious reasons a man with a vagina is not high on most people's list as a suitable relationship partner. That being said there are people out there where it wont matter, but in general, living as a normal hetrosexual man, you will have difficulties with relationships.
• hormones - losing your testicles as part of srs really plays havoc with your hormones. If you dont plan to replace them with either estrogen or testosterone, you will experience some major side effects. Hot flushes, lose of energy, loss of strength, depression. These are all just mild effects you may experience but it can ne life threatening.

Now that is just the basic clip notes and there is a lot more to it but bottom line is that it is major surgery and a major change and its not all roses and puppies. If you chose to do it, just be aware you are probably going to have a vagina for the rest of your life with all its pros and cons. Happy to answer any questions you have and i wish you well whatever you choose.

[NCAmazon]

More than happy to share my experience and answer and questions you have but its probably easiest over chat or something similar but the basics are as follows:

First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

I know that sounds really negative and while all that is true, for me all of that is offset by the fact that for the first time in my life it just looks normal down there and while the novelty has well and truly worn off, i wouldnt have it any other way. However if it is something you seriously want to do, be aware of the reality and not the dream.

Now i had mine without any RLE or HRT so preop i was a big hairy 6 foot man and I became a big hairy 6 foot man with a vagina as described above. Suffice to say it was a struggle dealing with the reality of it all especially during the healing period.

Day to day, life as a man assumes you have a penis, especially if you actually have had one for 30 years. Most of the issues i had with hiding the fact i had a vagina are probably similar to the experiences some ftm have so checking out their forums might be useful. For me the biggest things were as follows:

• lack of bulge - you are always conscious of it and unless you are using a packer, certain types of clothes can really make it obvious
• toilets and peeing - i work in the construction industry and i also do a lot of driving. The lack of sit down toilets becomes very noticable when you have to sit down to pee. Driving long distances can also be a drag in actually having to make toilet stops rather than finding a roadside tree. Its an adjustment anyway but making it work in an almost male only construction industry can be challenging. Randomly the sound women make when peeing is different to that of a man, even a man sitting down
• clothing choice - related to my first point but are you going to wear male only clothing or mix and match. Especially recently post op, sanitary pads are your friend and they dont sit very well in male underwear. Alternatively, womens underwear will fit better but the band may be a big giveaway to people
• Relationships - for obvious reasons a man with a vagina is not high on most people's list as a suitable relationship partner. That being said there are people out there where it wont matter, but in general, living as a normal hetrosexual man, you will have difficulties with relationships.
• hormones - losing your testicles as part of srs really plays havoc with your hormones. If you dont plan to replace them with either estrogen or testosterone, you will experience some major side effects. Hot flushes, lose of energy, loss of strength, depression. These are all just mild effects you may experience but it can ne life threatening.

Now that is just the basic clip notes and there is a lot more to it but bottom line is that it is major surgery and a major change and its not all roses and puppies. If you chose to do it, just be aware you are probably going to have a vagina for the rest of your life with all its pros and cons. Happy to answer any questions you have and i wish you well whatever you choose.

Informative info. How has it been for you in terms of sensation in the vagina area and acheiving orgasm?   Do you maintain a sex drive?

[Chrissym]

Informative info. How has it been for you in terms of sensation in the vagina area and acheiving orgasm?   Do you maintain a sex drive?

Sensation is very good both vaginally and from my clitoris. I can orgasm from masturbation in about a minute from clitoral stimulation.  Ive only had sex a few times since SRS and while i havent orgasmed from any of those times, vaginal penetration and stimulation on my gspot/prostate feels very nice

[Maybebaby56]

Great post, Chryssym. I have to salute you for having the courage and strength for knowing your heart and choosing the path less traveled.

First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

Boy, this is the truth.  For years I dreamed of being anatomically correct, and I placed inappropriate emphasis on SRS being the zenith of my transition. It turns out it was not, and in hindsight I can scarcely believe I fell into this thought process.

I was already living full-time as a very passable female, but I had a strong sense of genital dysphoria. I hated having a penis in my panties. I had to be careful what I wore, and I didn't dare wear a bathing suit or anything revealing.  All during my RLE, I was counting down the days to my SRS.  When I finally had the surgery, I was expecting some sort of sublime satisfaction, or bliss, or something, but I really didn't feel any different.  I was all bandaged up with thick gauze and surgical tape, and I couldn't see anything, and I couldn't feel anything different down there.

Even a few days later, after getting all the bandages and packing and catheter removed, it was kind of underwhelming.  Yeah, it was great not seeing male genitalia, but I was swollen and sore, and the surgical site looked awful. Then, as you say, one is soon dealing with the reality of dilating and pain and blood and mess.

I have absolutely no regrets about having SRS, but honestly, the whole process of having FFS, getting my name and gender legally changed, coming out to friends, family, and coworkers, and going full-time as a female had more impact on my life and was more psychically satisfying. SRS was just taking care of "loose ends", pardon the expression. That's why I think the terms "Gender Confirmation Surgery", or "Gender Correction Surgery" are not very appropriate.  It didn't confirm anything for me, and it certainly didn't "correct" my gender. My sense of gender is located between my ears, not between my legs.   

With kindness,

Terri

[ScramBrain]

This is first time on one of these forums. I found this thread (I know, its probably dead now.), while doing some very general research for myself. I'll start by introducing what/who I am.

I am a sorta-cis male, but have been curious about a transition since early childhood. I've always been interested in being female, but never felt that a transition was for me since I have a deeply ingrained desire to continue my family's line, and current technology wouldn't let me get pregnant if I did an MtF transition. As a result, I'm "content enough" to be male, but never lost the jealousy of girls for their bodies, in particular, the crotch. I'm a college student now, and realize that if I acted early on, I could transitioned before my features became distinctly male, and gotten sperm saved.
During my recent browsing, I had seen a post elsewhere that brought the idea of a change back to the forefront of my mind and helped me figure out what I want. While I would love to live fully as a female, my real issue has been genital dysphoria, and jealous of girls being able to wear certain clothing on the bottom.

Here is my thought process currently, and if anyone reads this, I'd like some input. Note that I have slightly oversimplified this for conciseness.
I am currently in college, and will probably have a fair amount of savings for it left over if I keep on track with my grades. At that point, I will figure out my living situation, and get sperm saved. After that, I'd see about getting a vaginoplasty at around age 25, and any minimal amount of hormones necessary for my health, as well as whatever I could afford to shape that region, my butt, and my legs. I'm in CA in a very accepting area, and think that I would be comfortable living life as a male with female plumbing. I'm sure I'd get looks as I go about life in leggings or whatever else I choose that shows it off, but I'd feel much more comfortable with myself.

I have talked with someone who got a full transition, and really only feel like I need this much to be comfortable with myself.

[AnonyMs]

What kind of input do you want?

Anywhere under 25 is really good age to transition. Its far from being late to get a great result. However the sooner the better so I'd not just leave it for years. Personally I think you should talk to a good gender therapist and consider HRT first. You might find your interest in transitioning changes on HRT.

Have a read of this post

My journey from NB to tomboy
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=229051.0

[Bea1968]

A few years ago I met a person who had bottom and top surgery to ease their dysphoria about themselves but spent the next several decades still presenting as a man.  They had their reasons for doing so and it worked for them.  It was not until their 70's at least, that they finally admitted their secret to their children, peers, church and came out 100%.    We are unique and we all deal with our needs in a way that works for us.  This person worked in an office and hid their top surgery by wearing a suit coat every day.  It's sad that my meeting this extrodinary individual was a chance meeting and I didn't have the presence of mind to exchange contact info for I very much would have liked to hear more of their story.

[JanePlain]

It's very dangerous to do SRS, orchie without taking either hormones estrogens or Testosterone. If the body doesn't get either hormone you might end up with Osteoporosis where it comes a point your bones can become as brittle as a chalk.

For sure talk to your doctor about this.  I think its important to be taking calcium twice a day even if you are on HRT to avoid Osteoporosis.  But check with a doctor about it first.

[DebbySoufflage]

Gregory Hemmingway, the eldest son of Ernest Hemmingway had SRS in 1995.
He wasn't on HRT and didn't live fulltime. He occassionally crossdressed en femme and called himself Gloria on these occassions.
He also had one breast implant placed which he later got removed.
He died in 2001 and was put in a women's prison when the guards discovered he had a vagina.
His kids used the fact that he had a vagina against him, to make sure his wife would get nothing of his fortune, after he passed away. Florida didn't recognise same-sex marriages back then.
It was unclear how Gregory Hemmingway identified exactly but he introduced himself as a male about 90 percent of the time and presented as such.

So even in the 90s with enough money one could get SRS without fulltime presenting.

I actually wonder who he went to see?
Doctor Bieber was still alive and operating back then and very popular in the USA as a SRS surgeon back then. Marci Bowers was still a gynaecologist back then and didn't do SRS surgeries yet.
So I think Gregory Hemingway might have made the trip to Colorado for his SRS.

I also always see everyone posing HRT as an absolute necessity when one has no gonads anymore.
I was on Lupron shots for over 5 years with no HRT, before going for full HRT.  I did it because I couldn't socially transition back then. Apart from mild hotflashes I never developed adverse side effects in that period.

My mother has had a radical hysterectomy two years ago at age 47,5 .
She has not been on HRT because she is concerned for breast cancer.

She sports regularly, she eats well, she is very active and works fulltime and she has had no adverse reactions apart from hot flashes and mild depression.
She looks 10 years younger than her actual age, is super feminine looking and in good health.
Her doctors are not concerned about her not being on HRT. The adrenal glands still produce some hormone amounts.
As well as do the fatty tissues in the breasts and the brains also produce Estradiol.
She is of menopausal age and her hormone levels are on par with women her age.

There is a YouTuber named Mardi and she is a 57 year old trans woman who transitioned as a 17 year old. She only took hormones for 1 year in her life. She is not on HRT and is 30 years post-op and passes very well.

So it's not always black and white with having low sex hormones.
It's amazing how self-sufficient the body can be.

Some have terrible side effects when left without HRT after gonadectomy, others are perfectly fine without HRT after gonadectomy.
It's not cut and dry.

[ScramBrain]

Anywhere under 25 is really good age to transition. Its far from being late to get a great result. However the sooner the better so I'd not just leave it for years. Personally I think you should talk to a good gender therapist and consider HRT first. You might find your interest in transitioning changes on HRT.

Have a read of this post

My journey from NB to tomboy
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=229051.0

I appreciate the sentiment and the story, but above the waist I have a very masculine yet not muscular build. I'm not one of those guys who got a thin torso and effeminate qualities to begin with, and my social role never particularly bothered me, so I'm happy to stay as-is when it comes to that, and am pretty sure I would feel like a fraud if I went for a full transition.
Since about age 8, I noticed girls smooth crotch with skin tight bottoms in swimsuits and sportswear catalogs, and was jealous and thought it looked so comfortable, but was never fully convinced to the idea of boobs, bras and bikinis, though I probably wouldn't mind it. As I hit puberty I found myself really uncomfortable with my penis and testes, and wished they'd go away ever since, and still find several annoyances about having them.

I had seen some guys out for a run today in nothing more than their loose track shorts, and I couldn't help but think that I'd be happy to do the same but would only do it if I could wear womens skin tight shorts and without the bouncing of my junk. I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't care what people think of me as long as I'm not a disturbance, eyesore, or stink up the place. I also had to fare with the irritation of my junk getting in a twist and going down the wrong pant leg later in the day.

I'm holding off on the entire thing for now (only 21), since I want to know that I'm in a relatively stable financial position after getting a bachelors degree (already have associates), a steady income, and hopefully getting out of living with my parents, which is entirely possible within two or three years at present if I don't chicken out. I'd prefer to have the bottom-only switch, and manage to hide or suppress the obviousness of it in their presence. I know they accept the concept in the abstract, but I had told them that I hadn't been interested when asked (It came up when one started doing work for a fully MtF trans.), which isn't lying per-se, see the second sentence of the second paragraph in my previous post. However, after that was established, the other made some remark about not knowing how they'd feel (negative connotation) if one of their kids (me or my step-siblings) had been trans.
I know hiding it perfectly would be pretty hard, but I think I could warm them up to idea slowly after the fact simply by my attire when I visit. If they properly figured it out they'd probably not be outright surprised since I have always been uncomfortable with talk about sex and the body, especially my own. The couple-week vacation to the SF bay area or another city would be inconspicuous in itself since I've always been interested in some of the cities that happen to have places that do the procedure.

Well, I'm trying to keep things concise and avoid writing out my life's story, but that's partially gone out the window. Hopefully I kept things somewhat coherent. My parting question for the night is this, after a bottom switch, is anyone aware of a couple different options with regards to a minimal impact to or from hormones? If a low dose of T just keeps things mostly as they are, maintaining my health, I'd probably take that. I'm also curious but doubtful as to whether there is such a thing as a mixed E and T dose, which could strike a balance. I'm going to outright doubt that you could for the most part separate what parts of the body are affected, but I would be quite pleased if there was a way to have E just (or primarily) to feminize my lower half, and T primarily maintaining things as they are on the top.

[AnonyMs]

You don't get to pick what parts of your body are effected by hormones, but you can adjust the dose. Estrogen has a powerful psychological affect which you can't really appreciate until you try it, and there's no predicting how it will effect you.

Your main difficulty is finding doctors who will do what you want, but its quite possible as others have. Not sure how far you'll get if you're relying on insurance, but you can do whatever you want if you have the money and determination. I know of a number of people who have.

I appreciate you're probably non-binary, but it also seems like you have doubts you could successfully transition to female. I sometimes think the same thing, but its amazing what others have done. Have a look at the YouTube video "MALE to FEMALE - TRANSITION INSPIRATION (12 months HRT)" by Sona Avedian.