How do you know for sure if you are passing?

[AbbyKat]

I've been obsessing more and more about wether or not I'm passing; getting to a point where this is a private matter between myself and my close friends is what I'd ideally like.  There are all of these instances where someone finds out (usually from me, honestly, because I assume everyone knows already) and seem so surprised; then, there are days where people stare at me and I just want to curl up in a ball and die.  How do you know, for sure, if you are passing?  Having that sense of security is very important to me, but I just can't see a way to know for certain.  Posting pictures here is never any good; you all are amazing, but frankly I've seen more than a small number of blatant lies on the "do I pass" thread.  I can't know for certain when I'm out in public, because I don't trust myself-I'm too sure of myself some of the time, and not sure enough others.  I just don't want people laughing at me behind my back; I know a few people who tell me how they pass so well, but in actuality are being read CONSTANTLY, and are just oblivious. 

How can I tell?  Do you need to out yourself to someone before you know for sure?

I've recently (on accident) came up with a great exercise that will be invaluable later on when "passing" is something I have to confront.  It started while looking at random news articles and I said to myself "Pretend I was just told that one of the women on this page of photos is a transwoman and I need to choose which one she is" and I looked... they almost all looked trans to me.  I told my wife the same thing when watching tv and, sure enough, nearly every woman I saw looked trans.

Now, when I go to the store, I play a mental "spot the transwoman" game and every single woman looks trans when I'm actually questioning it.  It's bizarre but it proved to me that expectations change perspective so much that anybody could look trans if it were suggested.  This is why I have a hard time judging on the "do I pass" threads because, if it were out of context and just pictures I saw online or Facebook, it wouldn't even occur to me that these women might be trans.

So later on when I'm concerned about passing, I'll remember that.  If you don't give a person a reason to expect a transperson in their midst, it probably won't cross their mind.  This applies to you, as well.  You know you were born with penis so you are automatically looking for a transwoman when you look in the mirror.  If you can somehow stop that, you would probably just see a normal (albeit very attractive) woman.

If I saw your photo anywhere else aside from a web forum specifically for transgender people, I wouldn't even second-guess it.

It's a hard thing to get out of your head but it just might be the trick.  Next time you go to town, play "spot the transgender" and you probably won't see an actual cisgender looking person all day.  It's weird but it works.

[JulieBlair]

Maybe I'm missing something important, but I seems to me the issue is more living than passing. Abysha is correct, all women cis or trans are a blend of characteristics both masculine and feminine.  I'm a lousy example, because passing is something I do rather than something I worry about.  I live my life a woman.  I expect to be recognized as a girl, and I am.  Whether or not someone really thinks about it or not isn't something I have much control over.  What I can control is how I express how I feel about myself.  When I am okay with me then I am fine, when I'm not I'm insecure.  My avatar picture was taken Monday morning I think.  Is that a girl looking out at you?

Look, I'm sixty two years old.  I am single, I date, I have friends and lovers.  Does that mean I pass.  As far as can be meaningfully described it does.  I don't hide being a transgendered person.  My boyfriend is fine with it, my kids and grandkids are fine with it.  I am Julie and I think she is pretty cool.  To the people I meet or talk to in a casual way I am she, her, and mamm.  Once in a while I get sirred.  Then I take no offense and gently correct them or not as my whimsy declares.

You are beautiful and once you allow yourself to live in that beauty the essence of passing is complete.

Peace,
Julie

[ImagineKate]

The issue of relationships - unless you plan to lie to your partner or lie by omission you're not going to be able to get the same set of guys that a cis woman would get. Some people don't want to date even cis passable trans, and some people want a partner to have kids with. So that narrows the pool somewhat.

[ZeldaHeartLove]

I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, Kate! I'm dating a wonderful man who has been exclusively with women and he's a catch! However, you're completely correct about not getting the same pool of guys a cisgendered woman would get.

Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men.  Or simply ask!

[ImagineKate]

I'm going to have to disagree with you slightly, Kate! I'm dating a wonderful man who has been exclusively with women and he's a catch! However, you're completely correct about not getting the same pool of guys a cisgendered woman would get.

Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men.  Or simply ask!

What I meant was that some people would never date a trans girl no matter what and no matter how passable. Sure you can do it if you're stealth but what if he wants children?

The point is that the pool has already been narrowed. Why worry? Just live

[kelly_aus]

I gave up worrying about when I realised that it was a fools game that had no winners.  I can't read minds, so therefore I have no real idea what people are thinking, so why worry about it? But as others have said, confidence seems to be the key.. Own who you are and others will follow.

Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men.  Or simply ask!

Passing may be important to you, but it's not the goal for everyone..

And here's a humorous, you know you pass when:

You are in a class of 20 people who don't know and the trainer who does know can't get your gender straight.. The looks of confusion when he called me a he were a good sign I was passing - or the woman I got to know on that course, she'd just assumed I was a somewhat butch lesbian.. I thought she'd worked it out..

[androgynouspainter26]

Passing is a very important thing. I suppose the only way to truly know is to evaluate how you are treated by strangers and interested men.  Or simply ask!

I mean, strangers are never super friendly to me, and NO men ever seem to be interested...what does that mean?  If I was passing and was attractive, wouldn't guys ever hit on me?  Why doesn't that happen?

[April_TO]

Andro, I feel your pain but you have to live. Today, I was out with my friend strolling around the cold streets of Toronto. I even went to stores i.e. Zara, Gap etch and even ordered food up real close and no one bothered me and this has been going on for weeks.

Now I can attribute this confidence to the daily conversations I have with friends, this community and my therapist.

Andro, you have to be secured about yourself and who you are. Don't you get tired what others think about you.
What they think about you is their business. You are a woman period.

[ImagineKate]

I mean, strangers are never super friendly to me, and NO men ever seem to be interested...what does that mean?  If I was passing and was attractive, wouldn't guys ever hit on me?  Why doesn't that happen?

Is the friendliness problem exclusive of gender? Maybe that's part of the issue. I had a lot of problems interacting with people, I found that a few changes went a long way and now it's really easy to make friends.

From your pictures I really don't see the problem, so that leads me to believe it is elsewhere. I don't know you personally so I can't judge your personality.

I really hope you find your zen.

[noleen111]

passing is mostly about attitude... remember cis-woman come in all shapes and sizes.. so are super model pretty others not so much... some are petite and some are large boned and actually have some masculine features... so this requirement we have in our heads to look like barbie dolls is basically bull.

But saying that some tips... dress your age.. note what woman in your age group wear... dress to the occasion..e.g. women don't wear fancy evening dresses to the supermarket or the mall with lots of makeup etc.. also makeup women tend to wear less makeup during the day than the evenings.

sit with the you legs closed or cross your legs... and something i noticed.. women often straighten their dresses before sitting.

learn to walk in heels... heel first then the flat part of your foot hits the ground... and don't over sway your hips.

little things can make you pass.. these can be learnt by watching other women... just don't stalk them. plus if you on hrt and have breasts.. people should see you as a woman..

3 quick things to help us pass which we can all do..

Shave your legs and arms
wear nail polish
grow you hair

You will be surprised how girly you can look with long hair with a band or maybe curl your hair a bit..

[Christine Eryn]

I pass without trying nowadays as I've mentioned before. It's my combination of no facial hair, cheekbones, longer hair, and earrings that I think people/strangers take note of. From the neck down I don't wear what would be considered female clothing by a longshot. Even butch lesbian friends of mine have told me so.    I guess it's the fact that I stopped caring about what people think. I used to be a real "tough guy" but now I've turned kind of soft. 

[Evelyn K]

Think of it this way. Bottom line peoples actions towards you. Does the phrase - "actions speak louder than words."

Like having a StarBucks barista you've never seen before greeting you with, "what can get for you honey bunch?" Then an hour later realizing he wrote "Enjoy! " on the tumbler side.



^^ Like that! Although the smiley rubbed off before I realized it. 

Experiencing all sorts of little head games like the above that you find guys play on girls. Even though I identify as lesbian, it's still something about me that must be 'right.'

- Doors being held open with a smile.
- Being called "sweetheart" or "sweety" by other women. Such as trying to pass in between you and a clothing rack you get a, "sorry sweety   (followed by a friendly touch on the arm and points where she's reaching too) thanks."
- Seeing counter employee's you've regularly interfaced with a year before your transition totally-not-recognizing you and addressing you as "Ms." or "Mam." Those really crack me up.
- When visiting your brothers wife in the hospital and her having mistakenly outing you to her nurse who asked, "she's beautiful"..."is she his sister?" And her telling you later on that the nurse couldn't believe you where (or was) a guy. "Oh yeah..., hmm hmmm that's-a-dude..." And yes we had a conversation about mistakes as well. She's on some serious MS pain killing meds direct in her spine, so I forgave her. 
- ... and so on.

All of these interactions are genuine and sincere. You're seen as a female and interacted as such.

For me I knew I was passing when the stress thinking about passing finally diminished. Diminished to the point where it was no longer a signal I could latch onto in the space of white noise I was listening to. And life is full of noise. Being read and seen as female was much louder and smothered any signal of doubt. The internal question "Am I passing?" becomes out of sight and out of mind. No further cognitive dissonance or lying to myself about it. It's unbelievably emotionally liberating.

[androgynouspainter26]

Evelyn-Yeah.  I'm happy for you, but very sad reading this because I worry I may never have this in my own life.  I don't get any of that.  Ever.  I have literally never had even one of those experiences, and, as much as I dislike this whole notion of "chivalry", in it's sexist nonsense, getting some of that stuff every now and again would be pretty darn validating.  What does that mean then?  I still don't pass?  Two years on hrt, two long years of stares, breakdowns, and utter misery, and I am never going to be any sort of woman?  Probably.  So...I'm sorry for keeping this post dragging on, but it's all I can think about-how do I get there?  What can I do to get to that point?  I'd really, really appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.

To everyone who keeps telling me not to care: I simply can't.  I don't care about strangers, not in the abstract, although I did spend the majority of last night seriously contemplating suicide or detransitioning (a far worse fate) because I had gone out for the day and I couldn't handle all of the stares.  But I care about how this is influencing my personal life.  I'm lucky to be in an accepting community at school for now, but when that ends, I might wind up totally alone, and unemployed.  I'm in a relationship with someone I have literally no interest in simply because nobody else has shown a sliver of interest, and I don't want to spend all of my time alone.  I'm going into a very competitive field, and if people know I'm trans before I become established, my career could be finished before it begins.  So in theory, I do not care very much about how strangers treat me.  What I care about is that it's a sign of the fact that I am an outcast who has no place in society, that this is going to follow me around for the rest of my life, and that, despite the struggle I've been through, I am a man.  I should have been a woman, not a trans woman.  Until other people agree with me when I say I am female, I personally do not think I can consider myself that.

[kelly_aus]

Until other people agree with me when I say I am female, I personally do not think I can consider myself that.

And here's the fly in the ointment.

Until you own the fact you are a woman, few will see you as one - the confidence that comes from having a firm grip on your identity is priceless..

[androgynouspainter26]

That is not true.  I am sorry, but that is simply not true.  People treat me just as badly when I'm feeling confident.  It's a pleasent notion, that 90 percent of passing is confidence, because that's something you can easily control.  It's simply not true.  You may not mind that people are treating you badly, or you may be unaware of that, but passing is NOT about how you see yourself, it is about how you appear.  I cannot do this because I am simply not able to face a reality where I tell everyone I am female, and believe it, but they either tell me I am wrong or agree just because it's the polite thing to do. 

[Tessa James]

I don't know for sure if I pass and likely never will.  I hope you would consider that not caring is, of course, a too simple answer but caring about others and yourself in a loving way goes a long way toward feeling better.  I sure hope you feel better.  Our expectations really can color our experience.

[kelly_aus]

That is not true.  I am sorry, but that is simply not true.  People treat me just as badly when I'm feeling confident.  It's a pleasent notion, that 90 percent of passing is confidence, because that's something you can easily control.  It's simply not true.  You may not mind that people are treating you badly, or you may be unaware of that, but passing is NOT about how you see yourself, it is about how you appear.  I cannot do this because I am simply not able to face a reality where I tell everyone I am female, and believe it, but they either tell me I am wrong or agree just because it's the polite thing to do.

Let me put it another way then, if you don't see yourself as a woman, why the hell should anyone else? And I love the assumption that people treat me badly..

I never said appearance wasn't part of the answer.. It is, clearly.. But as someone who looks far more masculine than you, I'd have to say that isn't your issue.

[Dread_Faery]

You're pretty queer in your presentation, which always brings stares. As someone who mostly gets perceived as AFAB and cis - I have met people who've just known. There wasn't anything I'd done or said, they'd just known. There is only so much you can do to control how other people perceive you. Generally if people are surprised when you disclose being trans then you got read as cis.

[April_TO]

Andro, the key to happiness is to be at peace of who you are. I have been working in a corporate environment for many years now and ever since I came out to my colleagues I have gained their respect and confidence.

Don't deny who you are. I don't care if they know me as Trans or not, I am confident and when people smell that from you. They won't mess with you. How do you carry yourself? Do you walk with your head up or down? When people look at me I look at them in the eye until they get uneasy. Be brave this is not for the faint of heart.

At the end of day, if you decide to de-transition you are still a woman. You have just taken a different path and I respect you for that xo

Much Love,

April

[Evelyn K]

AndrogynousPainter, I agree with Dread_Faery.

Your presentation does look queer. I mean purple hair? You *are* going to be stared at because it's rare to see these days. And it will immediately make others draw assumptions about you based on this queer association. I understand trying to appear unique, but this uniqueness brings closer scrutiny (and consequently further inspection) to yourself which is what you are experiencing.

Passability wise you actually translate as your screen name implies. You look androgynous.

Imagine the following scale with 4M being the most intensely masculine face, 0 being androgynous (it's nearly impossible to tell either or), and 4F being the most intensely soft and feminine.

4M -- 3M -- 2M -- 1M -- 0 -- 1F -- 2F -- 3F -- 4F

4M 0 4F

To me, you appear to be at the center 0 of this scale. Truly androgynous. Isn't this close to your transition goal?

You know AP, androgyny can be just as beautiful in its own right. Come with me and have quick look at this tumblr for inspiration
http://dappertomboy.com/archive

Barring FFS and other drastic measures, in your opinion is there anything wrong with embracing what you have, and rocking it like what the above tumblr is doing?

Again, androgyny can be beautiful. I think it's a matter of changing your perspective. For instance I went into transition with open mindedness, forgiveness and acceptance. If I eventually achieved androgyny - then I'll happily live androgynously. If I achieved femininity - then I'll live femininely. But I won't cross my passing boundaries too far in either direction, because I know that will only raise eyebrows. I'm happy with what I have so far - just being the best version of me. And I'm OK with that.