Reasons why TGs come to support group once and never again.

[Jayne]

Carrie, i'm not sure if you realise how insulting some of these comments come across as.
This rant may put some peoples noses out of place & may cause me to fall foul of the moderators but I couldn't care less as my nose has been put well & truly out of place, i've given myself almost an hour before replying so I could calm down

it was almost completely dominated by older-transitioning MtFs, I really felt isolated. Like, they were all talking about older-transitioner concerns... coming out on the job, kids, family, and they all seemed WAY more stereotypically feminine than me, with almost every single one of them wearing dresses, heels, and makeup

I didn't realise there was an acceptable age limit for wearing heels, dresses or makeup. Like it or not but many of the older transitioners face the problems of coming out on the job whilst dealing with kids & family.

I was kinda expecting it to feel like the groups of female friends I've hung out with my entire life, basically just people out living their lives, acting like what I as a young person see as a "typical woman,"

It sounds like they were acting like what they were bought up with as a "typical woman", out living their lives.
Are you sure you didn't project some of your ageist hang ups onto these women? One woman in my group is struggling with the fact that where she grew up she was dragged before village elders & told that she wasn't welcome in her village, later in her life she was forced into electro shock therapy, she is trying to complete RLE before she is able to pass & such comments (online or in person) would be extremely damaging to her.
It sounds like you weren't very accepting of them.

I didn't expect it to feel like some secretive collection of cross-dressers decked out in stereotypically-feminine attire talking and obsessing about transition as if it was an AA meeting. (I know that's not what they actually were, but it's what it felt like to me at the time.)

Considering this support site is welcoming to cross dressers that is a rather insulting view, both to older transitioners & cross dressers

[ReDucks]

Jayne, I think it's fair to express your feelings honestly, and I think that Carrie spoke of it as a generational gap.  Personally, I think you're looking for trouble where none exists.  As a jeans and t-shirt gal, I would feel out of place in the sort of meeting she described, but not because of them, because of me.  I would also be much older than them so might shake my head at what the kids are wearing now days.

[Jayne]

I'm a jeans and t shirt gal most of the time but due to running a support group I often have to clean up the mess these kind of comments can cause

[Ms Grace]

 
I'm going to ask people to keep their cool here.

The OP was asking for honest feedback on why people might not attend more that one session of a support group and, as such, subjective assessments are likely to be offered. As long as they are presented as personal views towards answering the question, not as self-opinionated rants, then they are relevant perspectives. Regardless, please keep in mind that there are people of many ages here, with many modes of gender expression so please phrase your responses to take this into account and be mindful it can be hurtful to others.

Any bickering and I'll shut this thread down.

 

[AbbyKat]

I'm a jeans and t shirt gal most of the time but due to running a support group I often have to clean up the mess these kind of comments can cause

I don't know... it was clear to me reading it that she understood that she was out of place, and not them.  How can you get an honest answer if you don't really want one?  You said you want to know why people don't show up more than once and that was a few of the reasons.

To me, it sounds like the older generations could make a bigger effort reaching out to young people showing up.  It sounds like many of these groups are dominated by gals who aren't in their 20s or 30s so they relate to things differently.  Since they aren't in the minority, it's not they who are being victimized by a lone person who feels out of place.  That claim could have been made by the poster but she didn't make it. 

Instead of being offended, maybe people can assimilate what she said and realize how it could benefit your group.  It sounds like a legitimate reason why many people wouldn't go to many of these when they stick out and don't know very many people there.  I seriously doubt she meant any insult by it.  In fact, she's trying to do you a favor by giving you the feedback you asked for.

[Carrie Liz]

Carrie, i'm not sure if you realise how insulting some of these comments come across as.
This rant may put some peoples noses out of place & may cause me to fall foul of the moderators but I couldn't care less as my nose has been put well & truly out of place, i've given myself almost an hour before replying so I could calm down

I'm sorry... I'm just telling you what my thoughts were the first time I went to a support group meeting. I had NEVER met a trans person in real life at the time. So it was a bit of a culture shock to have that be my very first experience with trans women.

I didn't realise there was an acceptable age limit for wearing heels, dresses or makeup. Like it or not but many of the older transitioners face the problems of coming out on the job whilst dealing with kids & family.

There isn't. All I'm saying is that I personally couldn't connect with it. Again, there's an age gap there. My concerns were things like "will anyone ever be able to find me attractive? Will I still be able to have a family one day? To find a decent career as a trans person? What does this mean for the entire life that's in front of me where I don't even know what I want yet?" You know, young-person concerns. It was hard for me to relate to discussions that were constantly about the struggles of people who were long since married, divorced, with kids, long since settled into their work lives, and more talking about the fallout from a long-established life being turned upside down rather than having to transition before you even knew what the hell you wanted to do with your life. And again, there is a big generational gap in terms of how we see femininity. I've always seen it as more about the physical body, about doing the exact same things I've always done but just doing them as a girl instead of a guy, where most of the old transitioners seemed to be of the cultural mindset that your gender COMPLETELY dominates everything about your life, from your dress, to your mannerisms, to the way you see the world, and it was very hard for me to relate to that mindset.

It sounds like they were acting like what they were bought up with as a "typical woman", out living their lives.
Are you sure you didn't project some of your ageist hang ups onto these women? One woman in my group is struggling with the fact that where she grew up she was dragged before village elders & told that she wasn't welcome in her village, later in her life she was forced into electro shock therapy, she is trying to complete RLE before she is able to pass & such comments (online or in person) would be extremely damaging to her.
It sounds like you weren't very accepting of them.

I never said that they were lesser, or that I was judging them to be such. I just said I had a hard time personally connecting with them because our fundamental views on gender and what its importance in your life is seem so fundamentally different.

Considering this support site is welcoming to cross dressers that is a rather insulting view, both to older transitioners & cross dressers

Sorry... that's what it felt like to me. And this is one case where I'm not going to defend myself, I'll just admit that my view is immature and biased. I know I shouldn't have a problem being grouped in with cross-dressers, and I shouldn't be judging unpassable trans people as looking and acting like cross-dressers, but to my eyes at the time, back then when I had NEVER met a trans woman in real life before and I was expecting the women I met at the trans group to look more cis-normative, it was a pretty big "OMG what the hell am I doing here?" moment for me. Yes, it was immature. And if it makes you feel better, I've since become friends with many of the exact people that I was looking down upon the very first time I went to the trans* support group and judging. I was just being honest, because the OP wanted to know why some young transitioners go to the group exactly one time and then leave. Whether it's morally right or not, I do feel like that shock factor is one of the reasons. And there's nothing we can really do to change it, other than work on de-stigmatizing feminine expression in those assigned male at birth, but for now, it's a problem. It took me a few meetings before I finally got used to it and felt awful for having judged them at first.

[V M]

When I went to my last endo appointment the Dr. asked me if I had a support group to go to

I said "The only support I have is online and there isn't really anything in my town, at least none that I know of"

He then indicated that some of his other patients attended one in the city where he practices and asked if I'd like to get in contact with them and I said it would be fine for them to contact me

I was somewhat excited about it, but I've never heard from anybody, not even a message on my answer machine so that's been kinda discouraging    I'm still keeping hope to meet others in my area and see how it goes though

Maybe it's all about making and keeping contact with people and making them feel welcome

[ThePhoenix]

In response to the OP's question:

There are many reasons that people do not come back.  There are approximately 9 (?) or so trans* groups of various types in and near D.C.  I have had a hand, large or small, in helping to start four of them.  I have attended all of them.  So here are some things I see:

In all but two of the groups, MtF persons dominate.  One of the two that is not mtf dominated is an FtM specific one.  If an FtM person comes into a group and does not see another FtM person, then they do not return.  I have had some of them tell me how they won't return because there are no trans* guys the one time they visited. 

It is also true that both FtM persons and non-binary persons have found themselves excluded.  In the case of FtM people, there is usually a benign neglect.  MtF persons in the groups tend to put on programs to meet their interests (make up, jewelry, etc) but have never, in the years I've been doing this work, had a single topic directed toward FtM persons.   That neglect, plus a seeming inability to open the floor to FtM persons to discuss their issues, leads to there being no reason for them to attend.  Non-binary persons are greeted in most groups with intrusive questioning, demands for explanations, and outright hostility.  You know, the things that happen to trans* people so often.  So they also do not return.

Then there are people who need support who come to a support group and find none.  Their needs are not met, so they don't return.  And there are people who just want a social experience and find a more intense environment.  Their needs are also not met, so they too do not return.

There has been a bit of tension in some of the other comments, but it seems to actually be a fairly useful tension because it also illustrates some things. To wit:

Also if people really don't pass sonetimea it makes me uncomfortable.

When I attended my first trans* support group, I had a reaction kind of like this.  I spent so much time convincing myself that being trans* meant more than just being a man in a dress.  And I showed up at my first trans* group. Every single trans* person there was easily, immediately clockable, even to me as a person meeting my first trans* people.  And it was because they seemed to my eyes at the time like . . . men in dresses.  It scared the daylight savings out of me because I thought that might be what awaited me.  I can't imagine that I am the only person ever to have that feeling.  And I can readily imagine that it might scare a lot of people away. 

I'm not impressed with that. I recently pulled away from the support community because someone told me crossdressers triggered them. As we always say if a person has a problem with someone, it's their problem.

I am not particularly proud of my reaction.  But it was real and I am being honest in describing it.  I think that one of the useful things about having support groups is that they allow a person a space to work on those issues like their reactions to other trans* people.  It seems to me like an important function.

I'm a jeans and t shirt gal most of the time but due to running a support group I often have to clean up the mess these kind of comments can cause

The unfortunate thing about doing support is that it requires safety.  The purpose of safety is, in my opinion, to make it safe for people to be honest.  But honesty I sn't always pretty.

Part of my task as a leader is to spend time instilling an ethos that makes it safe to talk openly about the stuff that isn't pretty or popular or even especially nice.  That's the purpose of the Trans*Unity principles that I am always talking about.  And it is further reinforced by our meeting guidelines.  And we try to reinforce it by what we do in meetings.

It works pretty well.  People talk about things they don't talk about anywhere else and yet I virtually never have to clean up a mess caused by someone else's insensitive comments. 

The alternative, of course, is to say that certain things are just off limits and cannot be said.  That may keep certain things from being said, but it also quashes honesty. 

Sometimes people need to be really honest and not worry about if the things they say are in compliance with someone else's views.  If they don't find that, then that's yet another reason to not return.

[Hikari]

Very simple, if I feel uncomfortable, I am going to remove myself from the group and not say anything because I don't want to offend anyone. Clearly, even by acknowledging how it feels for me sometimes it made people offended. That is the exact sort of thing that keeps me very weary about support groups. I am not saying how anyone feels is wrong, merely that it can make one incompatible with a group where a differing prevailing thought process exists.

[Devlyn]

Very simple, if I feel uncomfortable, I am going to remove myself from the group and not say anything because I don't want to offend anyone. Clearly, even by acknowledging how it feels for me sometimes it made people offended. That is the exact sort of thing that keeps me very weary about support groups. I am not saying how anyone feels is wrong, merely that it can make one incompatible with a group where a differing prevailing thought process exists.

Honestly it would sound to me like I would t really relate to that group so I probably wouldn't come back either. If the group isn't really like similar to me and my peers I might as well just get support from my normal group of friends. Also if people really don't pass sonetimea it makes me uncomfortable.

OK, so substitute Black/Asian/Canadian for "people who really don't pass"  Do you still feel OK about your remark?

Hugs, Devlyn

[Hikari]

OK, so substitute Black/Asian/Canadian for "people who really don't pass"  Do you still feel OK about your remark?

Hugs, Devlyn

I have felt uncomfortable in all sorts of circumstances. I am not trying to argue with you, merely saying how I have felt before, I don't feel ashamed for having felt uncomfortable in a wide variety of circumstances involving all sorts of people, and I don't see what good it would do to feel bad about how I have felt before. The doctors office makes me feel uncomfortable and nervous even.

[Mara]

I am in my 20s and went to the local trans feminine support group only once. I have considered going back, but here are the reasons why I haven't bothered returning yet:

1. Depressing. Most of the women there were in their 50s and 60s, though there were quite a few people near my age. But what I heard from both the younger and older peeps (especially the older ones) is the most depressing stuff I've ever listened to in person.

2. I couldn't relate to the younger people there. They talked a lot about their experiences with coming out, going to gay bars/nightclubs, etc. I haven't done any of that.

3. I feel like I need to be on HRT, out of the closet, and making some attempt at presenting to count as really trans. I've only come out to one person in real life not counting people at support groups and my therapist, and I just barely started HRT.

4. I'm attending a different support group now that is mostly people closer to my age. It is a private group organized by therapists, and it is on the same night as the other group.

5. I'm still at the point where admitting my gender dysphoria to people in real life is extremely embarrassing. When I went to that group, I spoke very little and didn't really participate.

[Tysilio]

Hikari, I respect your honesty about your feelings. We ought to be able to be honest about such things here, of all places -- how else will we ever come to understand and learn from them?

It's a fact that humans tend to be made uncomfortable by other humans whom they perceive as different from them -- it's just how we're wired, and in the past it was a survival instinct. It's what we do about that discomfort that's important. In an ideal world, we'd all try to open our hearts and find ways in which we're not, after all, so different, and we'd celebrate our differences as making the world a funner and more interesting place.

But that's a lot to ask, especially of someone who is new to a given group of people. I think it's largely on the established members of a group to welcome a newcomer, and if that doesn't happen, and if the newcomer doesn't readily feel some sort of kinship with the group, then it's normal for that person to feel uncomfortable or even threatened. (I use the word "kinship" advisedly, because much of this does come down to ancestral, tribal/clannish ways of being.)

I mean, jeez, if I walked into a support group and found myself in a room full of Canadians, I'd freak -- those people are terrifying.

[Devlyn]

Hikari, I respect your honesty about your feelings. We ought to be able to be honest about such things here, of all places -- how else will we ever come to understand and learn from them?

It's a fact that humans tend to be made uncomfortable by other humans whom they perceive as different from them -- it's just how we're wired, and in the past it was a survival instinct. It's what we do about that discomfort that's important. In an ideal world, we'd all try to open our hearts and find ways in which we're not, after all, so different, and we'd celebrate our differences as making the world a funner and more interesting place.

But that's a lot to ask, especially of someone who is new to a given group of people. I think it's largely on the established members of a group to welcome a newcomer, and if that doesn't happen, and if the newcomer doesn't readily feel some sort of kinship with the group, then it's normal for that person to feel uncomfortable or even threatened. (I use the word "kinship" advisedly, because much of this does come down to ancestral, tribal/clannish ways of being.)

I mean, jeez, if I walked into a support group and found myself in a room full of Canadians, I'd freak -- those people are terrifying.

I disagree that honesty about your feelings trumps the need to consider other people's feelings. I'm the crossdresser here. I'm the one making people "uncomfortable." When do we discuss the honesty of those feelings? Here, of all places?

We fear what we don't understand. Tysilio, if you watched South Park, you'd know that a Canadian's head flaps up and down when they talk.  It's different, but nothing to be terrified of.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Lady_Oracle]

I started transition at 20 (5 years ago) and I have yet to go to a support group mainly because of the age gap issue. I mean even on this site I find it hard to post sometimes for the same reason.

[amber roskamp]

I guess I got lucky then. my group is mostly 20's and 30's with a couple older people who come every now and then.

[V M]

Okay folks

That is quite enough

Apparently trans people come in all ages and some folks have difficulty accepting others

Susan's Place is an inclusive support site

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive whatever the provocation.

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand. Members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Topic Locked

Thank you

V M