As a collective, are we any good at outreach?

[Julia-Madrid]

Ladies and Gentlemen

Occasionally on Susan's we see interactions that don't exactly make us shine and which, for me, bring into question whether, as a collective, or as the Susan's collective, we are any good at positive and consistent outreach. 

Recently a thread was started by a cis guy who said that he'd met a trans woman at some public event, felt profoundly uncomfortable, and decided to learn more about transgender issues as a way to remove his ignorance.  So far so good....  Well, we questioned his motives for being here, and then we got extremely tetchy about his use of the collective noun "guys" when replying to us.  He made a mistake, but wow did we rub it in.  And then he disappeared.

Notwithstanding that we come with certain fairly justifiable sensitivities, the question still remains whether we're both agreeable enough and sufficiently militant enough to represent ourselves, both on Susan's and to a wider socio-political world?  It's all very nice to have a few ultra-public figures who feature as poster girls/boys, but what about a more rank-and-file organisation?  Does such a thing exist, or more to the point, is it even possible for such a thing to exist?  Certainly in my country everything transgender is a disaster of poor organisation.  Also, since many of us wish to simply disappear once we're done with transition, is there any hope of our collective having the continuity that the LGB grouping has?

It would be interesting to know what your/our views are. 

Unlike the other day's thread, I please ask that we keep this one civil, relevant, and on-track.

Regards
Julia

[suzifrommd]

You've probably come across some of my views on this subject before, but I'm happy to post them here.

We're TERRIBLE at outreach. The fact that parts of this country are trying to get transguys to go to the ladies' and transwomen to go to the men's is a reflection on how miserably we've failed to explain who we are and why we do what we do.

Everyone in the world should understand the following:
* Being transgender is not a choice. It is biologically wired, probably before birth.
* It is painful and upsetting to live as the opposite gender.
* Being transgender typically doesn't go away if ignored. In many cases, it gets worse.
* No one has ever come up with a way other than transitioning, to consistently make transgender people comfortable with their gender identities.
* Transgender people are not psychologically disordered. Most are competent and intelligent, valuable as workplace professionals and family members.
* Jokes about transgender people or gender transition are offensive.
* Genital surgery is not a requirement or necessary component of gender transition. Those who do it don't "become" a man or women. It's done to make peace with our bodies.

The fact that so many people don't know any of this reflects on how badly we've done the job of raising awareness of our condition. We've outsourced it to the media, which get more wrong than they get right, and to a few celebrities whose agenda as educators conflicts with their need to increase readership and viewership.

[Devlyn]

A couple points. The population here is in constant flux, there really isn't a firm "we" around. Most people come here, learn, transition, and leave. Second, I think it is largely generational. While the older members remember a past that wasn't good, the younger ones dress how they want, join the LGBT group at school, and laugh at how we prattle on about how bad things are, when they're not. I don't believe a lot of us are paying attention to the fact that the world is different now. I think the education we want society to have has happened and we don't notice it.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Julia-Madrid]

While the older members remember a past that wasn't good, the younger ones dress how they want, join the LGBT group at school, and laugh at how we prattle on about how bad things are, when they're not. I don't believe a lot of us are paying attention to the fact that the world is different now. I think the education we want society to have has happened and we don't notice it.

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

[Jayne]

Edit: 2 posts turned up whilst I was typing so I'll add that I'm almost 40. & I agree that the older generation may be more negative due to growing up in a more difficult time

A simple answer to the question is no we're not good at outreach.

Often we've been kicked around so much by society that we're overly touchy, I committed this sin yesterday, I had valid points to make on a topic here but instead of my normal calm response I allowed my emotions to take over. It would be easy for me to blame it on the other persons post, it would be easy to blame it on me being months overdue for my t blocker but the reality was that I should have just walked away from the topic until I was able to word my response in a calm manner.

As Suzi said, jokes about being trans or transitioning are seen as offensive. This is a huge barrier to acceptance, comedy is a great way for people to accept us as human. In THAT family giuy episode about Quagmires father transitioning many comments on here were of people being very offended, I watched that episode with my ex and I had tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks, I was of the opinion that the true butt of the jokes in that episode was the intolerance. Seeing me laugh so hard made my ex see me in a different light, previously she though that me taking offence of people being rude in public was me being over touchy, she then changed her view that it's the intent to offend me that I was reacting to.
I had always told her to feel comfortable to laugh with me regarding my eczema not at me, the same goes for me being trans.

I hope I explained that well enough, I reworded it several times in an effort to be clear

[Miharu Barbie]

Thank you Julia for addressing this subject.  Regardless of what does or does not come of this discussion that you've begun, I love you for bringing it up!

As to how good or bad things are for trans people in 2015, I do not have a strong opinion.  I have been boldly dealing with and coming to terms with my own transsexual nature for over 33 years and have managed to grow some very thick skin; I am not easily offended.  What I would like to say is this:

I love and honor trans people!  All of you.  I don't think that we as a collective give ourselves nearly enough credit for how difficult it really is to come to terms with gender dysphoria in its many manifestations, and especially how very difficult it is to create and execute a plan for transition.

I believe that the incredible strain that we as individuals endure in this process has psychological and emotional ramifications that probably looks and feels a lot like post-traumatic stress disorder.  In much the same way that a combat veteran coming home from battle can have a terrible time reintegrating into his old life and often behaves in ways that seem terrible and unexplainable to those who can't know what he has been through, I believe many trans people are struggling under the weight of unacknowledged and untreated PTSD.

I may be way off base here, but I'm beginning to feel that it is increasingly important for us as a collective to begin to understand and unravel the emotional/psychological consequences of what we experience and who we are in terms of how we see ourselves so that we can begin to make some peace within our own hearts.  When we begin to make peace within, I believe that the real work of making peace with the wide world of cis-gender people (most of whom perhaps see us as an ominous mystery) will naturally follow.

Maybe

[Sunderland]

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

I'm 28, and I do tend to see things in a far more optimistic light than some when it comes to how accepting society is of trans people. Overall, I think things are looking very good for us right now, and I feel that they will continue improving rapidly.

[ForceMustang]

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

I'm 23 and living in France, and I'm far less optimistic than Sunderland. Despite the fact that I have a natural tendancy to see the bright side of life, on the trans* subject I'm not that confident.
People here don't know a thing about trans* issues and more generally of what the word trans* implies, and the tiny bit they know or think they know doesn't go toward trans* acceptance. I was surprised to hit this wall of ignorance even with people I consider really smart, open minded, curious and who are about my age and living in a big city (Paris). My LGB friends are ignorants about it too .
Medias are not doing a good job at giving trans* visibility, and when they do, it's really just crap and misconceptions. So no, to me, the battle is far from won, and still need a good push, and far more visibility.
(I'm speaking for myself, and I do not mean that everyone is ignorant, it only reflects what i'm feeling )

[kelly_aus]

OK, I'm almost 40.. And I'm pretty optimistic.. I find that people I interact with to be mostly respectful and accepting. I find the general population is more interested in their own lives to bother me.

As to whether we are any good at outreach as a collective? Sadly, no, not at all. Maybe when we can all agree on some basics, then we might be able to be effective.

[Julia-Madrid]

Thank you Julia for addressing this subject.  Regardless of what does or does not come of this discussion that you've begun, I love you for bringing it up!

I believe that the incredible strain that we as individuals endure in this process has psychological and emotional ramifications that probably looks and feels a lot like post-traumatic stress disorder.  In much the same way that a combat veteran coming home from battle can have a terrible time reintegrating into his old life and often behaves in ways that seem terrible and unexplainable to those who can't know what he has been through, I believe many trans people are struggling under the weight of unacknowledged and untreated PTSD.

I may be way off base here, but I'm beginning to feel that it is increasingly important for us as a collective to begin to understand and unravel the emotional/psychological consequences of what we experience and who we are in terms of how we see ourselves so that we can begin to make some peace within our own hearts.  When we begin to make peace within, I believe that the real work of making peace with the wide world of cis-gender people (most of whom perhaps see us as an ominous mystery) will naturally follow.

Maybe

Miharu, thank you!  These are incredibly relevant points.  I believe that many of our number are indeed dealing with something that could come close to PTSD, and with that there could be some truth in your statement about this being an obstacle to our dealing with the wider world.

I am going to make two statements.  The first relates to a huge difficulty in getting cis people to empathise in a meaningful way with our situation.  How many people know what it's like to live with the massive ongoing wrongness of how our bodies and social roles feel to us, to wake up every morning and think "Aaargh - another day of this wrong body."  It's so very hard for people to understand how this feeling of ongoing wrongness feels, the sense of dread that it brings to many, and for this reason, it's very difficult for us to reach across this particular divide to obtain some degree of sympathetic treatment.

The other thing I'm going to postulate is that society, or at least the part of society that is in control and makes the rules, the male part, has a truly massive penis problem with us, and it's a problem that leaves us as being perceived as incredible freaks - I shall explain.   Even worse, I think that this applies to trans men and trans women. 

I have no doubt that cis men contemplating trans issues spend quite some time wondering what kind of weird equipment a trans man must have down there, and why anyone would get rid of a nice snug vagina.  And in the case of trans women, cis men of hetero and homo orientations regard our need to be rid of a penis as totally the most utterly freaky messed up thing to do.  Both of these, I believe, provoke a visceral rejection response in men, and possibly in a number of women too. 

These two ideas make it extremely difficult for hostile groups to relate to us and vice versa, and for us to correctly convey who we are and why we're not freaks at all, just people trying to correct some extremely unusual problems.  However, the onus is still on us to perform the outreach, and to try to do this in a way that allows people to understand our situations without producing a sense of revulsion.   Truly I don't have an answer to the best approach, and I don't think there is any one approach but several, each strongly culturally dependent. 

While I think that some type of formal outreach should exist, I think a lot more could be gained if each of us were an ambassador and educator.  Yes, we saccrifice our passing, our stealthness, but in a one-to-one context, a lot of barriers can be broken down and bridges built.  Of course we do have some challenges:  in my experience in a large company, the women ask me questions, but not the men, and I suspect it's the "ick" factor and the penis thing.  Hence it does make outreach much more difficult, as the door appears to be closed, even though it may possibly not be.

I don't know how much of this makes sense, but I'd welcome your comments.

xx
J 

[suzifrommd]

I am going to make two statements.  The first relates to a huge difficulty in getting cis people to empathise in a meaningful way with our situation.  How many people know what it's like to live with the massive ongoing wrongness of how our bodies and social roles feel to us, to wake up every morning and think "Aaargh - another day of this wrong body."  It's so very hard for people to understand how this feeling of ongoing wrongness feels, the sense of dread that it brings to many, and for this reason, it's very difficult for us to reach across this particular divide to obtain some degree of sympathetic treatment.

I think it's the nature of our affliction that's a problem. A man who thought he was a frog, or a car, or a chair, or anything else he obviously wasn't, would rightly be labeled as delusional.

So when a male-bodied person declares he's a woman, or a female-bodied person declares herself a man, that would be most people's reaction. They would be wrong of course. We know that there really is something in a trans woman's brain that makes her female and in a trans man's brain that makes him male. But other people don't know that. To them, we do look delusional.

Does that make sense?

[Hikari]

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

I am 29 and I have been around this site since I was 24, and in my view we aren't all that feat at outreach or understanding. So many people are so defensive, trying to fight battles with themselves against their own insecurities vicariously by attacking others for their own thoughts. This means fundamentally when outreach is tried with the cisgender population they seem to be attack for the simple fact of not understanding us, before they ever get a chance to understand us...

I think the political and social climate is improving, but as a community I think there is a long way to go to reach out to people who want to learn or want to understand, who want to overcome their prejudice or preconceptions.

I am not too positive on the trans community in general, i share one tiny facet of who I am with them collectively, but there is so much of me that isn't wrapped up around my identity as an MtF transwoman. That means I am just as likely to be totally different in my outlook and thoughts from another transwoman as I am a cisgender woman; I just don't feel a very strong sense of similarty in a generalized sense.

I think we get it wrong, but seeming to attempt to forge a community out of intrinsically dissimilar people, whereas I think looking at it more like a dissimilar coaaltion that isn't beholden to each other is a much more accurate outlook to have on what we are.

[antonia]

I'm 35 but most of my friends and co-workers are in their 20s, I'm quite optimistic about the future for trans rights, acceptance and such even with some minor setbacks here or there.

On the subject of the trans community, we tend to be disorganized, fractured and hypersensitive.

Again and again I see people bickering, big egos and conflict, here in Toronto we had 2 trans marches during the last pride due to big egos, on trans day of rememberance we had trans people protesting the raising of the trans flag at the Toronto town hall and calling other trans people racists and biggots on TV and radio.

Then there is bickering and mutual disrespect between people that self identify as "crossdressers' vs. those that identify as "transsexuals" for a lack of better words, calling each other crazy or worse.

But there are individuals among us which are shining examples and they tend to get a lot done

[Sunderland]

I don't think it's in any way exclusive to the trans community. It's just people being people. They all have different personalities, beliefs and perspectives. They're going to clash from time to time. I'd say we're no better or worse at outreach than any other group made of unique individuals would be.

[DriftingCrow]

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

Age 27.

Things are not ideal and a lot of work still needs to be done, but I am optimistic overall. In the last year, there's been much more trans* public figures in the US media (Cox, Monk, Carrera hmm... forget her name but the ex-Navy Seal MTF, ) that bring a more positive and educational light on trans people. There's also been much more discussion in the mainstream media about families letting children transition, communities are developing around support for families with trans kids transitioning. This wouldn't have been in the news 5 years ago, 10 years ago. . . at least at the consistency it is now. Also, on more liberal media (like Huffington Post) there's been many articles and commentaries regarding gender issues.

Also, in regular daily life, I've been seeing more openly trans* people around than I've seen in the last 5 years. I think the spotlight on Cox and other trans celebrities helps bring more understanding to cis viewers, and therefore gives some trans people more confidence to come out.  Just within the last year or two, more of the cis people I know are finding out members of their extended families or friends are trans*.

To me, this shows that there's more confidence in trans people, and more discussion among cis people.

[Rachel]

I am 52. I work in a hospital and we have a sexuality department (trans department) that is 2 years old and we are supporting 500 families in 3 states. I am going to a Grand Rounds where the medical staff are being informed (trained) on LGBTI by our Director of the Sexuality Department. We are in the process of converting 30 to 40 bathrooms to gender neutral. I am out to quite a few at work and have had only one person express bigotry and it was about woman and trans. He is learning and making excellent progress (influential position in the Enterprise). We chat about my progress and transition often. HR is wonderfully supportive and we have very good trans insurance coverage. The coverage was voted on by the Board of Directors and it passed (2 years ago). The board are made up of very influential people who are owners of large companies, such as a major telecommunications company in the USA.

When I came out to the Pride at work group I got two hugs from woman. I came out to a secretary at work today (I talk to her almost every day). She said she knew. She never treated me differently.

The more I expose myself at work the more surprised I am at the support or lack of an issue. Sort of either support or so what.

I am not below 30 but I see major change in the culture where I work. I have been there 27 years and I have seen a major positive culture change.

[Mara]

Well, I just turned 25, and take what I say with a grain of salt since I'm not out, not presenting, and have just barely started HRT.

Obviously, things are pretty terrible for transgender people right now. If you look at the statistics, studies, and stories out there, it is clear that reality is quite grim. However, I do think that most people around my age are far more accepting of gender variance, and I expect things to get significantly better as the years go on.

In terms of outreach, I don't think that we're doing a good job. Part of the problem with that is that, even if one wanted to become a trans rights activist, the majority of society does not know what transgender means. Educating people is difficult because the trans community is so diverse, and most people don't care or have the patience to learn the differences between the various subgroups. From what I've seen, there is no agreement at all even in the trans community on what it means to be transgender. The rough definition of transgender is someone who identifies with a spot on the gender spectrum (or gender circle) different from where they were assigned at birth, but when it comes to what that actually means, things get ugly fast. Even on this forum. And explaining that to cis people is even more problematic.

I think that the language of 'identifying' itself might  be problematic too because it sort of implies that being transgender is a choice, like choosing to identify as a Republican/Democrat or something. We don't say that gay people identify as gay. We say that they are gay. But when it comes to trans people, we say that they identify as women/men/non-binary instead of that they are women/men/non-binary). The basic issue, in terms of education and how we discuss this issue, is that we need trans people to be seen as what they really are instead of just as identifying with what they are because simply identifying with it implies that they aren't it in actuality. It suggests that they are only associated with it. Being trans is an uncontrollable result of biology that is either genetic or epigenetic (or  both), and the issue I think is that most people don't recognize that. Even in my high school health class, they told us that being gay is just a choice (and never mentioned transgender). It is very difficult to convince people though when the scientific literature on transgender and even homosexuality is so scant (and even then, a large chunk of this country doesn't care about science anyway).

What we should really be fighting for is that transgender education based on WPATH, the AMA, and other authorities be mandatory as part of the curriculum in high school health classes. Unfortunately, the curriculum for these classes are usually controlled by social conservatives, which is why I was told in high school that evolution is 'just a theory', being gay is 'just a choice', to practice abstinence, that sex/masturbation more than 4 times per month damages your sex organs, and a bunch of other nonsense.

[Lady_Oracle]

Very very relevant points Devlyn Marie.  So, a question then to the people here below 30: please tell us your age and how you see this?  How won is the battle?  Where are we getting it wrong?

I'm 24, started transition at 20 and no we're still far from winning and yeah we're still getting it wrong but things are moving in the right direction thankfully.

For starters there's still too much infighting in our own community which is a huge issue for us since there aren't many of us to begin with in comparison to every other community that's fought for rights. If we want things to progress faster and better we need to educate and break down the language to simple terms. The biggest issue I see are cis people being confused at to what means what for them. Our language and terms can be really confusing even to us. For example look at how the word transgender can mean two different things once being the medical and full transition or an umbrella term that covers all genders and its expressions.

Also how everyone in our community personally identifies and views transition, adds to the trouble of educating society about us. There's not really one fixed answer. For example I personally don't see transition as a life long process but as a series of crucial medical & legal steps that I need to take for myself so I can live and be myself. Once those steps are completed my transition is done and over. From that point on I don't the trans label fits me very well anymore. I think that right there is a mentality a lot of us younger transitioners have since many of us don't have careers, reputations, our own families, etc when we transition where as the older trans folk do. I started transition at an age where I didn't really have much to my name or let alone an identity to speak of so there was nothing before honestly. I can't speak for all young transitioners but I see this type of thought process a lot within my age group.

So if we can band together as a community and stop the pettiness than yeah we can do some great things in the next 10 years. I agree that education needs to start in public schools but I'd say it has to be as early as middle school though, the younger they are the better they will grasp the information without bias. Its really up to the coming generations to make the changes necessary at the social level. We're never gonna change the mind of the old school. My generation is the first to accept the trans community more so than the one that came before it but there's still plenty of people who against us. What's important is that we need to start making our local governments hear us. There needs to be more action than just words. I plan on going into activism at some point in the near future to help in my own way 

Too many trans kids are dying cause of unsupportive families and communities. I think that issue right there needs to be addressed asap. There needs to be some sort of national media attention towards parents of trans children. Like some sort of government funded media campaign that goes across the nation. I'd say the president should address the nation about this crisis of no support thats happening in hundreds of American homes and around the world. The same applies to trans women of color being murdered an alarming rate. Seven of us have already been murdered in 2015..And yet no national outcry.

[Julia-Madrid]

Mara and Lady Oracle, I think your points are extremely valid.

In some countries where education is perhaps governed less by ideology, some early education in WPATH principles, or just a sympathetic treatment of gender and orientation difference, might be a very good starting point.

The main issue I see is that enlightened teachers may be accused of "turning" someone gay or transgender, when what they've actually done is open a door and equip someone with the vocabluary to talk about their internal state.  But this is a different thing to outreach as such.

Thank you everyone for your intelligent and thoughtful debate.   


My conclusions are therefore that, while some limited formal outreach does exist, we may still be very much hitching a ride on the LGB movement's train, rather than building our own.  Any ongoing outreach is therefore a combination of personal one-on-one education (@Cynthia Michelle, @ForceMustang), a limited formal presence, and the goodwill of LGB groups and a scattering of enlightened educators and lawmakers.

I am, however, optimistic that general social attitudes do seem to be changing for younger generations which seem to be much more accepting of gender and orientation fluidity.  It's not a case of us being "next in line", but rather that we're part of an ongoing process with its ups and downs.  There will be casualties, as terrible as it is:  parental or in-the-street violence against straight kids is sadly common, before we even talk about violence towards gay or trans kids and adults.

Let's get out there and do our bit!

Hugs to y'all / Bisous / Besos
Julia

[Zumbagirl]

Why do we have to be a collective?? Any time I have lived with the knowledge that other people know my past I simply showed them that I am a good trustable person. That's outreach when people have never met a TS person to a point where they feel comfortable around a TS person. I call that a win-win. I think that winning over the hearts and minds of the world, short of having a martyr, is not going to happen any time soon, maybe not for the next thousand years.

Also consider that some of us, myself included, don't feel the need to wear the TG thing on our sleeves every day. I did my thing, completed my transition and now I just want to live my life. If the benefit of my experience is of any help to someone behind me, then I am more than happy to help.