Gun right discussion

[CB]

It's easy to jump off a bridge or drop a hair dryer in the bathtub, walk into traffic etc.

No disrespect IKate but 18 month ago a close friend of mine (and support of my transition) in North Dakota committed suicide. After deep personal problems and alcohol abuse he did just that, i.e. pulled a gun and shot himself in front his partner in her front garden. And it wasn't even a hand gun, it was a hunting shot gun! Without guns in his house he would had at least to think about doing that and plan his actions. A gun is just too available to impulsive actions.
 

[iKate]

No disrespect IKate but 18 month ago a close friend of mine (and support of my transition) in North Dakota committed suicide. After deep personal problems and alcohol abuse he did just that, i.e. pulled a gun and shot himself in front his partner in her front garden. And it wasn't even a hand gun, it was a hunting shot gun! Without guns in his house he would had at least to think about doing that and plan his actions. A gun is just too available to impulsive actions.

I hate to sound selfish but that problem isn't solved by taking away my gun or anyone's gun. It's solved by treating the root cause of suicide. Our community should know this all too well.

[Serena]

The "obsession" is quite simple.

This country would not be possible without guns. The founding fathers did not ask the British for independence. Quite simply, they shot them.

Well that was another time/era.

[iKate]

Well that was another time/era.

While that is true, that doesn't mean that the underlying principle has changed. Take the first amendment, for example. We don't go and say it is invalid because "the press" is a website or cable television instead of a printed piece of paper. We also apply the 4th and 5th amendment to modern technology as well. So the 2nd amendment is valid today as well. Besides, whether or not there is a written law, gun culture is huge and growing. Women in particular are the fastest growing demographic of gun owners. Whenever I go to the range I see more women, and I have women friends who shoot as well.

But anyway I was pointing out how the gun is ingrained in the American psyche, because it's essentially how this country came to be.

[iKate]

By the way, the USA is not at the top in terms of the suicide rate, despite having so-called easy access to firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate (Data from the World Health Organization)

We are #30, well behind much of Europe and Asia, including Japan (#7) where there is no civilian ownership of guns or even swords.

[Serena]

Was the recent Scottish independence campaign executed using guns against england or with a referendum? I think time have changed. If the amendments are still applicable to non-violent things, then it's great, but gun is not the same thing.

That's the problem to begin with, americans are so easy to use violence, I don't want to go off-topic, but american cops can be very violent, let's just think about the black men that got killed because of that, and police officer would of course allowed to get guns, because that's their job, but citizens should not be allowed to do that, there is too many crazy people. This is my opinion I am sorry I am not going to change it.

[iKate]

Was the recent Scottish independence campaign executed using guns against england or with a referendum?

Apples to oranges. First of all, it was unsuccessful. Secondly, because it was voted down, clearly the majority of Scottish citizens did not want it.

I think time have changed. If the amendments are still applicable to non-violent things, then it's great, but gun is not the same thing.

Are you serious? The 1st amendment is being used to beat you up as a trans woman and exclude you from society in some places. What makes the 2nd amendment so special over it anyway?

That's the problem to begin with, americans are so easy to use violence, I don't want to go off-topic, but american cops can be very violent, let's just think about the black men that got killed because of that,

As far as cops being violent, sure there are a few bad apples but most of the men and women I worked with were upstanding citizens and would even go out of their way to help you.  Some of the media outlets love to latch on to stories that play to their core base. The reporting of these shootings and other incidents is extremely disgusting. The latest one is where a guy was walking around a residential street with a loaded gun, discharging it into the air. Who gets the flack for it? The officer who runs him over with a car to stop him! Unbelievable. Did I mention that this guy went on a violent crime spree and that the gun was stolen?

and police officer would of course allowed to get guns, because that's their job, but citizens should not be allowed to do that, there is too many crazy people. This is my opinion I am sorry I am not going to change it.

Do you even know that study after study has shown that concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than the general population? Legal gun owners are usually pretty law abiding. So how then is a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen much more dangerous then?

I mean you can say that about a billion other things really, cars, alcohol, etc. If the solution was to ban dangerous things, then we'd ban practically everything.

[Serena]

Yeah I know but that's a modern example of how people are not using guns to achieve their goal of independence. Time have changed, and the one you were describing is a different era. Things need to move forward and change, just like for the selective service, guns, etc...

[SonadoraXVX]

Im my male persona, I liked small arms and military science and did 5 years in the usmc, felt it went together like a pbj sandwich(right of passage to manhood). In my female persona I see it as tools, which should be handled with great respect and not a topic for polite conversation with most ladies I know. 2nd amendment always believed it. That said, I do own small arms, but keep them well locked up with valuables. I rarely share my interest of small arms with anyone, since most ladies and most men I know just dont know and/or have a like for them, sorry for saying it twice. Then again most women and men dont like auto mechanics either. [emoji12]

[iKate]

Yeah I know but that's a modern example of how people are not using guns to achieve their goal of independence. Time have changed, and the one you were describing is a different era. Things need to move forward and change, just like for the selective service, guns, etc...

But you used an example that was not successful. I used an example that was.

Also, "change for the sake of change" is frightening. America will likely never ban guns. Gun rights have been expanding, and that trend shows no sign of stopping.

[Serena]

Who cares if it was successful or not, that wasn't the point, if it wasn't successful it's because the people there didn't want it to be so, while americans wanted it to be successful. It's a different time, we don't need guns to fight for independence, especially in the US.

I still hope they will ban them someday.

[SonadoraXVX]

Owning weapons is as american as apple pie, goes back to the founding fathers, reason its included in the u.s. constitution, bear arms it says. Banning guns?, man that is going to an uphill fight from hell, if at all. Id love to see a bill that says ban firearms for all law abiding citizens, see how far it goes<pun intended>.

[Jill F]

If bickering on this issue persists, this thread will be locked.   If you don't have anything constructive to add to this topic, please find another one.

[CB]

If bickering on this issue persists, this thread will be locked.   If you don't have anything constructive to add to this topic, please find another one.

I'm surprised it hasn't been locked already 

However, as I said earlier I believe this goes much deeper than a simple right to own a gun. There is something very cultural going on here. Most people outside the US view the obsession with guns with disbelief and simply just don't understand it. The media in Europe (and elsewhere) often has documentaries trying to get to the bottom of what really is going on in the psych of American minds, not necessarily judging but simply trying to understand because they don't. When there's the latest school killing, people just shake their head with disbelief because it's beyond their comprehension. I believe not much will change until this obsession changes and I doubt that will be any time soon.

Personally I am so very glad I live in a society that is not awash with guns and where it would be legally impossible to ever get a hand gun and the level of violent crime generally is so much lower to begin with. I find them frightening and evil and am so glad I don't have to worry about them. But thats my opinion and I'm not going to tell Americans how they should live.   

[Zumbagirl]

Since I own a couple of corvettes I belong to a corvette club that has international members, some of whom are in France. When the Charlie Hebdo incident came up and having unarmed police against armed terrorists, the subject of France's supposedly "tight" gun ownership laws came up. What surprised me was the answer from the french citizens. What gun control? Many of them owned a large number of weapons, including military grade automatics. One guy has a picture of him holding 2 ak-47 (the real assault rifles, not the ones ordinary people can buy) with the eiffel tower and his corvette in the background. This was not an american citizen in France, this was a real french citizen. The question came up about why own the gun if you can't use it, to which the answer came, the black market gun trade in europe is huge, and by that I mean gigantic. It's not just criminals who buy guns over there but ordinary people who keep guns in their homes, never report them, never sign up for licenses, never even take safety courses. Nothing. The obvious next question that came up was why? You know what the european answer was? They remember world war 2, that's why. All around them they have living history of what happens to unarmed people.

This is not just some crazy european right wingers, these are ordinary people in europe who no one would ever suspect. The bottom line is, just because you can't see a gun or think they are outlawed doesn't mean that there isn't one near you. It also means that the person who lives next door, who you think "gee what a nice person they are" is hiding some weapons, stashed away hoping they never need them again, but can still remember the death of their own aunts, uncles, grandfathers, and so on at the hands of invading germans.

The thing about America is the only people who participate in the black market are criminals. Everyone else can go to gun shows and gun dealers and buy what they want and then never have to worry about doing something illegal. I can go buy a gun, fill out the background check paperwork with the ATF, wait for the background check to complete (takes a few minutes), pay the other person, conclude the transaction and I am free to go. The person who sold the gun to me can breathe a sigh of relief knowing he didn't sell a gun to a bad person or someone with a criminal background. So because everything is done "out in the open" there is no need for black markets it makes it better to maintain your rights, rather than doing a transaction in a dark alley.

[iKate]

I'm surprised it hasn't been locked already 

However, as I said earlier I believe this goes much deeper than a simple right to own a gun. There is something very cultural going on here. Most people outside the US view the obsession with guns with disbelief and simply just don't understand it. The media in Europe (and elsewhere) often has documentaries trying to get to the bottom of what really is going on in the psych of American minds, not necessarily judging but simply trying to understand because they don't. When there's the latest school killing, people just shake their head with disbelief because it's beyond their comprehension. I believe not much will change until this obsession changes and I doubt that will be any time soon.

They watch a school shooting in a state that has heavy restrictions on guns, and then shake their heads because "America has a gun problem."

In fact, everything the shooter did was illegal, even acquiring the guns themselves. His mother also broke several laws by letting him have easy access. What's worse is that despite all of these laws, the ATF hardly enforces any. They prefer to go after dealers where it makes news and makes them look good, versus stopping individuals.

The view of non US citizens and non residents on the crime situation in the US and legal firearm ownership seems rather contradictory. On the one hand we have people saying they'll never visit the USA because they're afraid of people walking around with guns. On the other hand, most tourists visit places like NYC, DC and California with extremely strict gun laws and where possession is banned in public. I think there is a lot of misinformation being spread around, some of it on purpose by groups such as MAIG (Bloomberg). Speaking of him, his bodyguards carry guns everywhere he goes and his rich friends all have impossible to obtain NYC carry permits... Even "mr and mrs America, turn 'em all in" Diane Feinstein had a carry permit at one time. Makes you wonder why the elites all want us disarmed.

Personally I am so very glad I live in a society that is not awash with guns and where it would be legally impossible to ever get a hand gun and the level of violent crime generally is so much lower to begin with. I find them frightening and evil and am so glad I don't have to worry about them. But thats my opinion and I'm not going to tell Americans how they should live.   

I lived in a Caribbean country with very strong gun laws, very discretionary license required, no more than 20 rounds of ammo per person, etc. It had one of the highest gun crime rates in the world. "Gun culture" isn't even a thing there. Most people politically are like American progressives, except when it comes to things like LGBT.

The problem is always deeper than the availability of guns. It has to do with society's mindset. This is why Switzerland has low crime despite civilians owning automatic weapons. This is why Jamaica has one of the highest gun crime rates in the world, despite having very strict gun laws.

[Zumbagirl]

The view of non US citizens and non residents on the crime situation in the US and legal firearm ownership seems rather contradictory. On the one hand we have people saying they'll never visit the USA because they're afraid of people walking around with guns. On the other hand, most tourists visit places like NYC, DC and California with extremely strict gun laws and where possession is banned in public. I think there is a lot of misinformation being spread around, some of it on purpose by groups such as MAIG (Bloomberg). Speaking of him, his bodyguards carry guns everywhere he goes and his rich friends all have impossible to obtain NYC carry permits... Even "mr and mrs America, turn 'em all in" Diane Feinstein had a carry permit at one time. Makes you wonder why the elites all want us disarmed.

I lived in a Caribbean country with very strong gun laws, very discretionary license required, no more than 20 rounds of ammo per person, etc. It had one of the highest gun crime rates in the world. "Gun culture" isn't even a thing there. Most people politically are like American progressives, except when it comes to things like LGBT.

This is the issue I see that is disconcerting. As the bar to gun ownership keeps getting raised and raised, we will eventually reach a point where only the very affluent (or politically connected) will have weapons, and everyone else will be disarmed and at the mercy of not just the criminals but the rich themselves. I don't see any of that ending well to be honest. Just to make sure that I put this in perspective I happen to be one of those wealthy politically connected people and I think that the direction that all this is heading is very dangerous. People with great resources know that they can buy their way out of the justice system, so they fear it less. Think of the "affluenza" teen who killed 4 people while driving a truck while drunk and said he wasn't responsible because he was rich. We all know how that defense and lots of money worked out. In the end the 1% will not only own all the money, but the resources, land and weapons. The other 99% will be slaves.

In Massachusetts, concealed carry licenses are done with the acceptance of the local chief of police. A few towns over is a city with a chief who gives out almost no concealed carry permits at all (in Massachusetts we call it a red town). It is one of the most violent towns with something like 12 murders so far this year, that's just so far...since 1/1. In my town which has little political pressure on issuing concealed carry (a green town), there have been a grand total of zero murders or shootings so far this year. There was only 1 last year and it wasn't a shooting it was a stabbing.

In the end, no matter what any of us say, the rich will always get whatever it is they want (thanks to citizens united). They can now legally buy congressmen and get whatever laws they want passed. They own the gun companies and ammo companies and distributorships across the country. Which way would anyone predict it to go?

[iKate]

In many countries it is already like . As pointed out people simply acquire them illegally anyway and take their chances. In Trinidad I knew lots of people with illegal guns. My uncle and grandfather had legal ones because my grandfather was a farmer and my uncle owned a business (and likely paid a bribe to the right people). Ordinary people simply bought it from God knows where. I knew a coworker with a loaded .38 revolver in his desk drawer. He had no licence.

In NJ if you aren't LE or aren't connected you won't be able to get a carry permit. The judges have ultimate discretion over civilian permits. However you can carry at home or at your business and possess them at a shooting range or gun shop.

[SonadoraXVX]

I,m from northeastern mexico/southern texas. In the town in matamoros, tamaulipas, mexico ordinary civilians are only allowed one handgun, yet organized crime gangsters carry fully automatic assault rifles and regularly get into gun battles with the mexican military and rival factions of organized crime not mexican police.  Ive heard monterrey, nuevo leon is just the same or was the same between the zetas and the gulf cartel and the sinaloa cartel. Im talking about the gulf cartel/zeta at times the sinaloa cartel there. Crime rates across the border are 1/10 in the rio grande valley and san antonio, to compare to three cities of comparable size. There is a documented case in Mier, Tamaulipas, of organized gangsters turning that place into a Fallujah, yes like the one in iraq, google it and see what I mean. The less guns argument by law abiding citizens dont wash with me and never will, because of my hometown.

[iKate]

I,m from northeastern mexico/southern texas. In the town in matamoros, tamaulipas, mexico ordinary civilians are only allowed one handgun, yet organized crime gangsters carry fully automatic assault rifles and regularly get into gun battles with the mexican military and rival factions of organized crime not mexican police.  Ive heard monterrey, nuevo leon is just the same or was the same between the zetas and the gulf cartel and the sinaloa cartel. Im talking about the gulf cartel/zeta at times the sinaloa cartel there. Crime rates across the border are 1/10 in the rio grande valley and san antonio, to compare to three cities of comparable size. There is a documented case in Mier, Tamaulipas, of organized gangsters turning that place into a Fallujah, yes like the one in iraq, google it and see what I mean. The less guns argument by law abiding citizens dont wash with me and never will, because of my hometown.

Especially when our own Government is shipping them south of the border...