I just had surgery with Dr.Haben

[HouseHippo]

I'm not a super social person so i imagined it would be easy. I absolutely hated it though. Maybe I like the sound of my own voice .

[anjaq]

It was weird - communicating by signs and facial expressions felt actually more social than just talking. It was interesting for me. But now I also like to talk on some days because I actually do like the sound of my voice - at least on the "good voice days"

[Dena]

Hi, Dena

I somehow think you are posting your replies in several threads - maybe it would have made sense to do your own topic and post everything there

Anyways...

You can try different recordings - useful wouold probably be your everyday voice and a voice where you just totally relax and let go. You dont have to push it to sound male. Something that might me interesting though would be if you cound record a glissando while humming (humming and then go as low as you can and then as high as you can) to evaluate your vocal range. We can analyze this with PRAAT and tell you the notes, if you like

The problem I have is that I have been using this voice starting in 1979 and it is so locked in the original voice is gone. I would have to train myself to access it. I can do ranges in my pitched voice but it is so strange that when I first starting working with my voice I feared slipping into the old voice. Now I find it almost impossible to do so.

This is not physically impossible, just very very unlikely - it would place your voice in or below the C2 range, which is about 65 Hz - Dr Kim mentioned that some patients had voices as low as 85 Hz, which poses a problem since you can usually only gain 75 Hz with the surgery, which still would put them only in the upper male or gender neutral range.
Here is a conversion table showing Hz and piano key names. Male voices are said to be 100-150 Hz, female 180-260 Hz.

If you are right and your voice is in the lowest possible range originally, it would probably be in that 80 Hz range - so to reach 140 Hz which is the point you can go to, IIRC, already is a pretty big shift and definitely it is not adviseable to go beyond that by voice training alone. If my assumptions so far are true, VFS will not be able to give you an effortless female voice but you would have to add some pitch increase by training on top of that. Usually what happens if someone has a trained , piptched, voice and then has VFS is, the new voice will be the same as the old, pitched voice, but the untrained voice is gone and the new voice is without effort but at the same pitch as the trained voice before VFS.
This would match my assumption of your old voice being in the 80 Hz range (E2) which really is low but it is only a bit over an octave below the female range (E3 is gender neutral, G3 is already female range)
Since your physical size is so large (how tall are you? more than 1m90? are you thin or more medium sized or big?), a voice that is below female average is expected by others anyways. Do you get misgendered a lot because of the tallness and the very large adams apple? After all its a pretty well known gender marker.... Or did you have it shaved?
Size of the adams apple seems not to have to do a whole lot with pitch though. I have basically no adams apple but my voice still was in the 110 Hz range and considered in the lower male range.

I am 1.87 meters tall and have a medium build of about 82 kilograms. I did have my adams apple shaved and the doctor was very careful not to remove to much as he feared damaging the voice. Even with the shave, I don't have much fat on my neck so my larynx sometimes shows. My shoulder are broad and I do have a good sized chest cavity. For the most part I pass effectively as long as I don't open my mouth. In my picture the only work done to my faces was the nose because of blocked passages and a little touch up that made a huge difference. i went in for the shave but ended up loving the nose. I was playing around with pitch perfect on my phone and my voice breaks around G3. I was also able to generate a B2 and hold it. I seem to have a pretty good range, just not where I want it. The lower range may not be be as low as it will go because the lower range is something I haven't worked with in a long time. I don't care that I will have to continue pitching the voice as I have done it for so long that seems natural. I understand I will have to get my ear used to the new range and I may have other issues adding interest to the voice. I also understand that it could take up to a year of work to get the new voice close to locked in. I went through the process once to get where I am and there is no point in spending that money unless I am willing to do the work again.

Well - it is hard to predict. But one thing seems to be an issue - if you dont use your new pitch, you may not get used to it and then it may be harder to use it eventually. But since you said you are already using a voice that is almost an octave above your natural voice, the difference will not even be noticeable by others, it will just be easier for you and you will have the option to use higher pitches at will, so you could eventually increase pitch as you like.

I have been using my current voice for a very long and often check my self to make sure I am getting all I can out of it. The process is simple. As I am working at the upper end of my rage I carefully listen to the inflection. If the inflection is chopped I have gone to high and I need to back off a bit to keep the inflection. If I am around a smoker ( my neighbor) I lose a little more of the upper range until I can get all that nasty stuff out of my system and then I bring it back up. I was made very aware of how to tune the voice and keep it in range and I don't even have to think about it, it just happens.
I don't think having my voice change will matter much to the people I am around as I suspect the word has gone around the grapevine. As I work under my mother, I have a good deal of job security as long as I do the work. She is supportive and came up  with the idea that my medical saving account would pay for the surgery. Transportation would be out of pocket.

During the first 8 weeks and some more, I was not audible in a car that had a loud engine or in a bar situation. I was at a party after the 8 week mark but was basically mute because I could not talk loud enough to communicate to others since too many people were talking plus music was playing. I think now after 3 months, I might stand a chance. What is your occupation? Do you have a very loud workplace?

I have a couple of jobs. One is supporting a computer product and I have gone over a year without a call. The other is industrial rental property and most of the time I am in doors. The sound issue would be they pull trucks up outside the building and let them idle for a while. I am not so concerned with a short term lose of volume but I would like to have a loud talking voice available over the long term as several people are losing their hearing. To be honest with you, we don't work that hard. Most of the time we are waiting for something to break. My mom is fully able to run the office without me but I am backup should something happen to her. I have already given up the ability to yell as the higher voice is unable to work at that level of output. My current voice will carry pretty good if needed.

[anjaq]

Hi Dena.

I must admit, your vocal dynamics are quite different from mine, so I have a harder time to give you good advice. Especially your very low "top" point is something I did not encounter that way. But Lets go through it...

The problem I have is that I have been using this voice starting in 1979 and it is so locked in the original voice is gone.

Yes , that is normal and it happened to me too, but it mainly affected resonance and not so much pitch. So I could use my female resonance and still go rather low, admittedly not as low as if I dropped that. But I am not sure now - on one side you say that it is hard to drop - that your current, trained, voice is all natural for you now - what is the purpose of surgery for you then? My main issue was that it took me effort to keep a higher pitch in my trained voice, that it sometimes slipped and I wanted that gone.

What would be helpful now in terms of voice range assessment and pitch assessment is, if you relax - totall let go of anything that bothers you about the voice - conscious pitch control, barriers you have set up during all those years - just totally relax and then do the slides or ranges and see what comes out there - which pitches are possible in a relaxed way and not straining at all? For me , doing Yoga and breathing exercises allowed this

I am 1.87 meters tall and have a medium build of about 82 kilograms. I did have my adams apple shaved and the doctor was very careful not to remove to much as he feared damaging the voice. Even with the shave, I don't have much fat on my neck so my larynx sometimes shows. My shoulder are broad and I do have a good sized chest cavity. For the most part I pass effectively as long as I don't open my mouth.

That is a bit tall, but the weight is ok for that (I am 1.73 but 115 kg). I think the shape of the larynx is important, if the larynx is visible but has no Adams Apple on it, it should be ok.

What puzzles me here now is - do you have a voice issue or not - you said you have a good trained voice, cannot slip back into the male voice, but then again you say people raise eyebrows when you speak... What is happening?

I was playing around with pitch perfect on my phone and my voice breaks around G3. I was also able to generate a B2 and hold it. I seem to have a pretty good range, just not where I want it.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-notennamen.htm

This may sound a bit harsh, but I think this is a rather restricted vocal range. It is not even close to a full octave. You said your traine voice is an ocatave higher than your original voice, so your original voice must be far outside your current reach. I think you definitely have a vocal issue of some sort and this should be checked first , before you do VFS. What about the range above the G3 - head voice/falsetto/middle voice/.... is it accessible? Have you had a checkup at an ENT recently? Maybe you have some dysphonia, vocal tremor, tension asymmetry, hypertension, glottal gaps,...?

To give you a comparison - pre OP my vocal range was E2->C4 where it transitioned into head voice from C4->A#5 (at some point there were probably transitions into falsetto and into whistle register). The part between E3 and C4 was pretty hard to do. Now my vocal range is from about B2 to G3 , then it transitions into mixed/middle voice until C4 or D4 where it transitions into head voice and it goes up to G5.
This is not typical, I know - its a range of almost 3 octaves and pre op it was over 3.5 octaves - but between 1 and 2 octaves should be possible for almost everyone... (including all registers). If not, I think there is some voice issue. Dr Kim told me to first fix my voice issues before having the surgery. At that time I was not even close to these 3.5 octaves, but was more locked into a few notes and a huge and ugly break into head voice. I had several voice issues (asymmetry, double gap in the vocal folds,...etc).

My biggest worry now about your voice would be, that the transition point to head voice (passagio) does not shift upwards with surgery - it barely changes. In the worst case, your voice will have a new base pitch close to your current upper limit at the G3 (G3 now is my average base pitch apparently, before it was C3). If you cannot go past the G3 then, your voice would feel locked in and restriced in pitch range and this wouold possibly lead to a monotonous voice, which again is a male gender marker.

So I think it is crucial for you to get a regular ENT checkup, do a voice assessment and if you want an opinion of me or others in this group, maybe a voice recording showing also your vocal range including the passagio into head voice would be very helpful. If your computer has a good microphone, you can just use vocaroo website and record in in the browser without recording software.

[kwala]

Sorry if this thread is getting sidetracked, but I have a question for Anja.  Many VFS patients, including you, have remarked that the "break point" doesn't change.  Dr. Haben has stated this to me as well.  My question for you is, how do you fell about the notes right around that break? Do they feel less strained? More powerful? Easier to reach.  Is passing through the break smoother and less straining?  Thanks in advance.  I just got a month of vacation approved for October so I think I'm actually doing this!

[HouseHippo]

Don't worry this thread got sidetracked a long time ago lol. I'm almost 3 weeks post op and I've noticed a difference in my break point, it feels higher. I can't say much else while healing though. I'll report back when I'm healed up more.

[Cadence Jean]

Forgive my ignorance, but would one of you ladies please define the "breakpoint" for me?

[kwala]

^Sure thing!  The break point I am referring to is the point at which your pure chest voice gives out and your voice cannot go any higher without moving into a head voice (it can be smoothed over with training and using a mixed voice, but I'll try to keep this explanation simple!)  So imagine you sing a comfortable mid-to-low pitch in your pure chest voice with a good amount of volume, hold it, and then slide up and up and up until your voice gives out and you flip into a falsetto.  The point at which the flip occurs is your break point.  Does that make sense?

Edited to add:  Thanks for your reply, Hippo!  Glad your recovery is going well.  You had the triple, correct?  What Dr. Haben told me is that the break point does indeed change when the CTA is added.  For the glottoplasty alone, he told me that the break point remains the same.  Sounds like you are well on your way to a wonderful new voice, and warmbody's results are also fantastic which makes me want to consider the triple, but I play clarinet for a living and I just can't justify doing anything that drastic to my vocal cords and that area in general because it could ruin my career if something went wrong

[Cadence Jean]

Thankee, miss!

[wanessa.delisola]

Wow, i'm impressed! I didn't even know that this was a thing!

[Cadence Jean]

I didn't either! When I found out, I'm like DO WANT. lol. And I called the next day to schedule my surgery with Haben. Lol

[HouseHippo]

Thanks kwala, my recovering very fast at this point. I did have the "tripple" done because I used to smoke and felt that was my best option.

Edit: while I have the time i thought i should upload a two and a half week update. http://vocaroo.com/i/s0jkPN1qsG7D

[anjaq]

that is interesting to heat that the CTA sctually supposedly increases the break point. I thought it basically almost eliminates it because it sort of pushes you into a head voice anyways? After all the CT muscle controlling the chest voice is set out of action with it?

In the glottoplasty, yes, the break point is the same after the surgery but to me it feels a lot less rough to go over it. Mine is at about D4, which is at the upper end of my speaking range anyways, so I dont think it affects me too much. What seems to change is the break point into male resonance, it seems to be harder and more like a break. So if I go below the G3, I may drop out of the mixed voice in an unpleasant way if I really try - but its harder to go there.

I must admit though - I am not a voice professional and currently my voice confuses me a lot. I think maybe I should focus less on all these terms and analysis and somehow just concentrate on managing to get a good voice. The short version for me so far seems to be, it is easier to use a feminine voice post op, but it is not granted freely - so I still have to use some voice control, but it is not taking as much effort - also not going up in pitch beyond the normal speaking range - and some things just cannot happen anymore.

[kwala]

that is interesting to heat that the CTA sctually supposedly increases the break point. I thought it basically almost eliminates it because it sort of pushes you into a head voice anyways? After all the CT muscle controlling the chest voice is set out of action with it?

In the glottoplasty, yes, the break point is the same after the surgery but to me it feels a lot less rough to go over it. Mine is at about D4, which is at the upper end of my speaking range anyways, so I dont think it affects me too much. What seems to change is the break point into male resonance, it seems to be harder and more like a break. So if I go below the G3, I may drop out of the mixed voice in an unpleasant way if I really try - but its harder to go there.

I must admit though - I am not a voice professional and currently my voice confuses me a lot. I think maybe I should focus less on all these terms and analysis and somehow just concentrate on managing to get a good voice. The short version for me so far seems to be, it is easier to use a feminine voice post op, but it is not granted freely - so I still have to use some voice control, but it is not taking as much effort - also not going up in pitch beyond the normal speaking range - and some things just cannot happen anymore.

Yes, the CTA stretches the head voice muscles into a semi-permanent flex as I understand it, so I suppose what he means is that your mixed register becomes stronger, which would lead to a higher break for pure head voice.  This is just my own speculation, however.

Thanks so much for your explanation.  I do think the glottoplasty will be enough for me.  Even my male speaking voice is not all that deep and I think if the glottoplasty can make the notes around my breaking point more natural and easy to use without fear of cracking or sounding like a strained male instead of a normal female then it is probably the way to go for me personally.  I think your attitude about not getting caught up in all the technical terms and just focusing on finding your own female voice that suits you is a great one

[Dena]

Hi Dena.

I must admit, your vocal dynamics are quite different from mine, so I have a harder time to give you good advice. Especially your very low "top" point is something I did not encounter that way. But Lets go through it...
Yes , that is normal and it happened to me too, but it mainly affected resonance and not so much pitch. So I could use my female resonance and still go rather low, admittedly not as low as if I dropped that. But I am not sure now - on one side you say that it is hard to drop - that your current, trained, voice is all natural for you now - what is the purpose of surgery for you then? My main issue was that it took me effort to keep a higher pitch in my trained voice, that it sometimes slipped and I wanted that gone.

What would be helpful now in terms of voice range assessment and pitch assessment is, if you relax - totall let go of anything that bothers you about the voice - conscious pitch control, barriers you have set up during all those years - just totally relax and then do the slides or ranges and see what comes out there - which pitches are possible in a relaxed way and not straining at all? For me , doing Yoga and breathing exercises allowed this
That is a bit tall, but the weight is ok for that (I am 1.73 but 115 kg). I think the shape of the larynx is important, if the larynx is visible but has no Adams Apple on it, it should be ok.

What puzzles me here now is - do you have a voice issue or not - you said you have a good trained voice, cannot slip back into the male voice, but then again you say people raise eyebrows when you speak... What is happening?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-notennamen.htm

This may sound a bit harsh, but I think this is a rather restricted vocal range. It is not even close to a full octave. You said your traine voice is an ocatave higher than your original voice, so your original voice must be far outside your current reach. I think you definitely have a vocal issue of some sort and this should be checked first , before you do VFS. What about the range above the G3 - head voice/falsetto/middle voice/.... is it accessible? Have you had a checkup at an ENT recently? Maybe you have some dysphonia, vocal tremor, tension asymmetry, hypertension, glottal gaps,...?

To give you a comparison - pre OP my vocal range was E2->C4 where it transitioned into head voice from C4->A#5 (at some point there were probably transitions into falsetto and into whistle register). The part between E3 and C4 was pretty hard to do. Now my vocal range is from about B2 to G3 , then it transitions into mixed/middle voice until C4 or D4 where it transitions into head voice and it goes up to G5.
This is not typical, I know - its a range of almost 3 octaves and pre op it was over 3.5 octaves - but between 1 and 2 octaves should be possible for almost everyone... (including all registers). If not, I think there is some voice issue. Dr Kim told me to first fix my voice issues before having the surgery. At that time I was not even close to these 3.5 octaves, but was more locked into a few notes and a huge and ugly break into head voice. I had several voice issues (asymmetry, double gap in the vocal folds,...etc).

My biggest worry now about your voice would be, that the transition point to head voice (passagio) does not shift upwards with surgery - it barely changes. In the worst case, your voice will have a new base pitch close to your current upper limit at the G3 (G3 now is my average base pitch apparently, before it was C3). If you cannot go past the G3 then, your voice would feel locked in and restriced in pitch range and this wouold possibly lead to a monotonous voice, which again is a male gender marker.

So I think it is crucial for you to get a regular ENT checkup, do a voice assessment and if you want an opinion of me or others in this group, maybe a voice recording showing also your vocal range including the passagio into head voice would be very helpful. If your computer has a good microphone, you can just use vocaroo website and record in in the browser without recording software.

I worked at it for a few minutes before I went to work and while my voice was fresh and I have some information that may clear things up for you.

The lowest I could go in my little experiment  was A2 at 100hz. Because I am so used to working in the higher range, I am not sure that is the best number but it's pretty close.

The highest number is G3 196hz. I can hit that and hold that comfortably. If I try to exceed that, that is dangerous because it is painful even for a very short time and the voice becomes uncontrollable.

C3 136hz is the lower end of the range I use for the "female" voice. I am not sure but just below C3 may be the bottom of my falsetto voice. By the time I tried that test I had already pushed my voice to far and couldn't reliably control it.

My read on it is what I call my "female voice" is really more androgynous which people would tend to pick as male instead of female. I do use inflection that spans the C3 to G3. Because of my size, I suspect a 80hz bot would put me in the low female range which might match my body size better and not look out of place. I might end up sounding like Cher but I could live with that. If only I could sing like that

As far as an ENT, I don't think that is needed as I have a 2 octave range which I suspect is pretty much normal. You on the other hand with that 3.5 octave range is far different and that is why most of us don't sing very well. I admit my voice is untrained for anything other than speech. Before I hit puberty my dad said with my voice I should consider singing but he never said that after I hit puberty. I think I understand why.

As I keep saying, my doctor taught me how to know what my range is and stay in the safe zone in order to avoid voice damage. I think my voice has improved over the years because I may have gained a bit of range and I am more aware of inflection. My voice is clearly above the larynx and in my mouth but there still could be resonance issues that I don't understand or know how to control. I do admit to not using the breathy voice very often and that may put a harsh edge on my voice.

One additional question is I don't know what the procedure used in Kora is and why is it different than the New York procedure. I would prefer New York but I also need be sure the Kora isn't far superior.

[anjaq]

Hi, Dena

I guess you are uncomfortable sharing your voice either because you dont like it at all despite it serving you well for tha pst decades - or because you dont want your voice to be in public. I do understand that - it makes an assessment harder though. All I can offer you is to send it to me via vocaroo in a PM...

The lowest I could go in my little experiment  was A2 at 100hz. The highest number is G3 196hz. I can hit that and hold that comfortably. If I try to exceed that, that is dangerous because it is painful even for a very short time and the voice becomes uncontrollable.

See, this is puzzling me. Are you SURE it is the G3 and not the G4? The G3 is the low female speaking range, below 200 Hz and as you mentioned "falsetto" - if you really use falsetto, you should be able to go a lot higher than the normal speaking range. Also the difference between A2 and G3 is LESS than ONE octave, but you described your voice as spanning 2 octaves.
One has to be wrong - your vocal range reading or your assessment of having a 2 octave vocal range.

The suggestions what to do next hinges on that.

Using C3 as the lower end of the female voice is good - its a bit low but its just barely below female alto range I believe - A D3 would be better.

From what you say about your body size and all that, a female alto voice would be good for you, it would be centered around a F3 or G3 I belive with the lows at D4. So it would probably not be hugely different from your voice as it is now and the surgery should be able to provide that (given we solve that puzzle mentioned above)

As far as an ENT, I don't think that is needed as I have a 2 octave range which I suspect is pretty much normal. You on the other hand with that 3.5 octave range is far different and that is why most of us don't sing very well. I admit my voice is untrained for anything other than speech.

I am not a singer at all. I am using my voice mostly for talking. I dared singing mantras and such a few times before the surgery and now I developed more interest in singing, but I stopped singing or doing music with puberty because I felt broken. Much of that vocal range was however only accessible to me afer a few voice therapy sessions. Apparently my voice was pretty damaged from speaking in a trained voice for 15 years. I felt like I could not go up in pitch at all - and if I did there was this huge break and then a weird falsetto voice above that - I did therpy for maybe 5 hours and that issue was clearing up. If G3 really is the highest note for you at this moment, I would strongly suggest to work on that. You can of course leave it all as it is, send Dr Kim or Dr Haben a voice file to check if he would do the surgery on you, go for it and afterwards deal with the voice therapy - but honestly, it seems to me that a lot of people go for the surgery with expectations that are unclear and then are confused or even disappointed if things are not working out as hoped for. I would suggest you try to minimize the risk of such an outcome by doing a proper perparation before a surgery

One additional question is I don't know what the procedure used in Kora is and why is it different than the New York procedure. I would prefer New York but I also need be sure the Kora isn't far superior.

It is hard to say. My judgement to pick Korea was based mainly on the positive results of others and a comparison to local voice surgeons in Germany. In that comparison, Yeson was top because the statistics said that they have a 80% happiness rate opposed to 30% in Germany, they claimed to increase the voice on average by 75 Hz instead of 3-4 semitones, they said it is possible to sing with a post op voice - which german doctors specifically said will be impossible, the post op pictures of former patients looked better, the technique has some slight differences - the stitches are permanent & set deeper into the tissue & made to correct asymmetries, scar tissue seems to be less rigid and the commissure seems to be move V shaped as opposed to U shaped as in many results from German surgeons. So you could try to compare Yeson to Dr Haben based on these issues, maybe it helps?

[HouseHippo]

A little update on my voice, I just got back from a restaurant, and my voice sounds awful when i need to raise it at all. for example a loud place or a drive through, It sounds 10 times more croaky and raspy. It's kinda embarrassing to use my voice in public still, I can't wait tell I'm fully healed, so I don't have to deal with that anymore.

[Dena]

I guess you are uncomfortable sharing your voice either because you dont like it at all despite it serving you well for tha pst decades - or because you dont want your voice to be in public. I do understand that - it makes an assessment harder though. All I can offer you is to send it to me via vocaroo in a PM...

I haven't had much time to work out the details of capturing a good sample. Love the new house but it rings like a bell. Most of it has motors or fans in the background. I ended up recording it in my bedroom with the door shut. The last issue is it's been a long day and my voice is a bit tired but this will give you a rough idea what I sound like. Now I have everything worked out I will have to try to get a better sample when I am doing a better job and my voice is rested.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s05xvROzmLHK
And now you know why I get sired all the time.

See, this is puzzling me. Are you SURE it is the G3 and not the G4? The G3 is the low female speaking range, below 200 Hz and as you mentioned "falsetto" - if you really use falsetto, you should be able to go a lot higher than the normal speaking range. Also the difference between A2 and G3 is LESS than ONE octave, but you described your voice as spanning 2 octaves.
One has to be wrong - your vocal range reading or your assessment of having a 2 octave vocal range.

The suggestions what to do next hinges on that.

Using C3 as the lower end of the female voice is good - its a bit low but its just barely below female alto range I believe - A D3 would be better.

From what you say about your body size and all that, a female alto voice would be good for you, it would be centered around a F3 or G3 I belive with the lows at D4. So it would probably not be hugely different from your voice as it is now and the surgery should be able to provide that (given we solve that puzzle mentioned above)

As they say, we have a failure to communicate. From male to top end I have a two active range A2-G3 about 2 octaves. What I can use effectively in the upper range is C3-G3 and that is what I call my "Female voice" which would be a little more than than half an octave. I am capped on the upper end and the lower I go the more I move into the male range. Now if I got the full Alto range, I would love it but what I suspect would happen is my pitched voice would move into the lower Alto and I wouldn't be able to access the upper end of the Alto. If that's how it works out, I could be happy with it as I don't have much wiggle room to work with where I am.

I am not a singer at all. I am using my voice mostly for talking. I dared singing mantras and such a few times before the surgery and now I developed more interest in singing, but I stopped singing or doing music with puberty because I felt broken. Much of that vocal range was however only accessible to me afer a few voice therapy sessions. Apparently my voice was pretty damaged from speaking in a trained voice for 15 years. I felt like I could not go up in pitch at all - and if I did there was this huge break and then a weird falsetto voice above that - I did therpy for maybe 5 hours and that issue was clearing up. If G3 really is the highest note for you at this moment, I would strongly suggest to work on that. You can of course leave it all as it is, send Dr Kim or Dr Haben a voice file to check if he would do the surgery on you, go for it and afterwards deal with the voice therapy - but honestly, it seems to me that a lot of people go for the surgery with expectations that are unclear and then are confused or even disappointed if things are not working out as hoped for. I would suggest you try to minimize the risk of such an outcome by doing a proper perparation before a surgery
It is hard to say. My judgement to pick Korea was based mainly on the positive results of others and a comparison to local voice surgeons in Germany. In that comparison, Yeson was top because the statistics said that they have a 80% happiness rate opposed to 30% in Germany, they claimed to increase the voice on average by 75 Hz instead of 3-4 semitones, they said it is possible to sing with a post op voice - which german doctors specifically said will be impossible, the post op pictures of former patients looked better, the technique has some slight differences - the stitches are permanent & set deeper into the tissue & made to correct asymmetries, scar tissue seems to be less rigid and the commissure seems to be move V shaped as opposed to U shaped as in many results from German surgeons. So you could try to compare Yeson to Dr Haben based on these issues, maybe it helps?

From what I am reading, Dr. Haben is pretty consistent and give a 2/3 of an octave bump to the range. That would push the current range I am using into the female range and I could add more inflection to my voice by dipping below the female voice a bit as it would almost be expected for somebody of my size. I suspect if the doctor is able to give me even more range, I would still want to settle out in the lower Alto range reserving the higher end for more limited usage. What I have learned so far indicates I would have to pitch my voice which I don't consider a big deal. I don't think I have high expectations because my original equipment voice isn't cut out for this. Hopefully the surgery can give me that little extra I need. If I had a higher voice to start out with I wouldn't be considering surgery but so far, this is all I have and I think I can do better.

[anjaq]

Hi, Dena.

I hope I am not hurting you by this but I think you are right by saying

And now you know why I get sired all the time.

I dont know what your original unchanged voice sounds like, but I have the feeling you changed some things that are not really helping you. There is a lot of nasality in it among other issues. To be honest, this recording strengthens my conviction that you definitely should see a gender-issue experienced voice therapist or speech pathologist or ENT to have a look at your voice. I believe there is a lot to be improved on the voice as it is and I believe that it is a lot better to start working on this before you go in for a surgery. I am not sure if you have some physiological voice issue as well, since in parts of the recording, I had trouble understanding your words because thes sounded slurred. Do yourself the favour and let someone you have not seen before have a thorough look at it.

How long did you have a feminizing voice therapy or lessons for and how many sessions did you do?

There is a chance that things may be easier with voice surgery, but I think it is a bit of a risk to take. If you dont see any other options, then go for it and see if things turn out good for you and if voice therapy is easier after the surgery.

As they say, we have a failure to communicate. From male to top end I have a two active range A2-G3 about 2 octaves. What I can use effectively in the upper range is C3-G3 and that is what I call my "Female voice" which would be a little more than than half an octave.

That still does not match up


In this image you can see how much an octave is. As you said. The distance between the C3 and G3 is 4 notes and thus just half an octave.
However A2 is just 2 notes below the C3 - so adding that to the range still does not give you even one octave!

What happens above that range? There should be a whole plethora of voice options above that range - middle voice, head voice, falsetto voice,... can you not access any of them? If so, again I would consider visiting a speech pathologist or medical voice specialist to chek if there are any physiological issues blocking that area of your voice.

With such a limited vocal range and limited vocal control, I personally would be very careful about choosing a surgery. It would be sort of an "nothing to loose" option maybe. If I was in that situation, I really would try to work on my voice before the surgery.

Please understand that I dont want to keep you from having the surgery - if you feel it will help you, then do it, but I just want to suggest taking care because a lot of people are disappointed by voice surgery because their expectations could not be fulfilled.

[Dena]

Hi, Dena.

I hope I am not hurting you by this but I think you are right by sayingI dont know what your original unchanged voice sounds like, but I have the feeling you changed some things that are not really helping you. There is a lot of nasality in it among other issues. To be honest, this recording strengthens my conviction that you definitely should see a gender-issue experienced voice therapist or speech pathologist or ENT to have a look at your voice. I believe there is a lot to be improved on the voice as it is and I believe that it is a lot better to start working on this before you go in for a surgery. I am not sure if you have some physiological voice issue as well, since in parts of the recording, I had trouble understanding your words because thes sounded slurred. Do yourself the favour and let someone you have not seen before have a thorough look at it.

How long did you have a feminizing voice therapy or lessons for and how many sessions did you do?

There is a chance that things may be easier with voice surgery, but I think it is a bit of a risk to take. If you dont see any other options, then go for it and see if things turn out good for you and if voice therapy is easier after the surgery.
That still does not match up


In this image you can see how much an octave is. As you said. The distance between the C3 and G3 is 4 notes and thus just half an octave.
However A2 is just 2 notes below the C3 - so adding that to the range still does not give you even one octave!

What happens above that range? There should be a whole plethora of voice options above that range - middle voice, head voice, falsetto voice,... can you not access any of them? If so, again I would consider visiting a speech pathologist or medical voice specialist to chek if there are any physiological issues blocking that area of your voice.

With such a limited vocal range and limited vocal control, I personally would be very careful about choosing a surgery. It would be sort of an "nothing to loose" option maybe. If I was in that situation, I really would try to work on my voice before the surgery.

Please understand that I dont want to keep you from having the surgery - if you feel it will help you, then do it, but I just want to suggest taking care because a lot of people are disappointed by voice surgery because their expectations could not be fulfilled.

I came here for answer and while I didn't find them directly your questions have helped me find them for my self.
First I have played around a bit more and my voice can reach 80hz. A range this low makes me a base but I cap out at around 196hz so I am missing a little on the top end of the base. If I attempt to go higher the voice breaks and it is painful which according to my doctor is a sign I will face voice damage if I keep doing it. If I hit it for even a short time, it may take a day or two for the voice to return to normal so I don't do that. I do not have a natural singing voice as I lack the natural range. My voice is unlike yours as it is limited and will remain so even after surgery. The reason for this is my larynx is about 2 inches or about 5 cm across. it is designed to put out the very low notes, something I don't desire.

Because I am working the voice so close to the upper limit, I suspect I am unable to generate the harmonics required for a fuller voice. You can try and experiment where you are at the upper end of your range and I suspect much the same will happen.

As for slurring, I don't have trouble with people understanding me but I can hear it as well. Some of the problem is I was born with hearing loss. I can't hear anything over 5,000z and reduced hearing sensitivity over the entire range. The good thing is it hasn't got any worst but the bad thing it that I have pronunciation issues now and I had them as a child. Cleaning up my speech pattern should be a part of the work I do after surgery as I would have to learn how to use the new voice. I was also tired when I recorded that sample so I may have been a bit careless. The last week I have been running on about 4 hours of sleep a night which isn't enough.

The way I see it, if surgery will work for me, I am going to need a triple and even at that I am going to need some answers to my questions. Is it even possible to move the voice over an octave and put a usable voice into the Alto range. How deep will I need to dip below the female range. I suspect I am going to need pitching my voice as the surgery will not push a base into the Alto range. Singing would have been a nice benefit but I think I will end up with even less range.

It's a bit hard to face but voice surgery may not be able to move me far enough to be worth while and I may have to continue living with being outed every time I open my mouth.