Ethics of stealth sex

[Zoey]

Hello!

I'm a very passable MTF, but I have a real problem ethically/spiritually with being intimate with a man who thinks I am a "normal" genetic female. Considering that being trans is a deal-breaker for most guys and something that guys DEFINITELY would want to know about, I just can't bring myself to be intimate with a guy. I did it some yrs ago, but I've felt quite guilty ever since. I cared for him a lot, I'm not into one-night stands. I have mentioned these thoughts I think on this forum before and the response was basically "Oh girl, stop thinking so much and just DO IT. Have fun!"

But that just seems really simple-minded and dismissive. It's a really big deal, and I don't know how people can minimize it in their minds like it's nothing. It's a major deception - especially if you are actually dating the person, care for them, admire them, even LOVE them, and it's not some random hook-up.

Thoughts?

[Ms Grace]

Personally I don't think I could have sex with someone and not let them know I was transgender, my main concern would be that even if I did "get away with it" if they ever found out at a later stage they might be feel betrayed or very angry.


We don't want to get into judgements about how people conduct their personal sex lives - stealth or not. I want responses to this thread to be about personal experiences only and not make judgements or generalisations about what other people do.

[Rejennyrated]

Well look I'm trans - I'm 30 years postop.

If someone tried to have stealth sex with me I'd actually be beyond angry, because I'd feel utterly disprespected, untrusted, and used! Now if I as trans person feel like that, I can hardly expect a cis person to feel any less now can I?

So while this is a personal belief, and ultimately its not up to me to enforce my beliefs on someone else, I think its totally unacceptable and I've never done it, nor would I. I'm sorry if saying that contravenes any rules or terms of service, I mean no disrespect to anyone as a human being, but this is my non-negotiable opinion. Anyone is welcome to disagree of course, but I will not debate. In fact in the UK this is a matter of law, there is both legislation and precedent affecting this.

I personally think stealth sex is utterly unacceptable and in my opinion probably lays anyone doing it open to the charge of sexual assault, because in many places informed consent has to include awareness of all facts that a "reasonable" other party may later consider relevant in order to be valid. (it is a matter of legal fact that this is the case in the UK).

Would a reasonable person consider this relevant? - Well I certainly would.

[DanielleA]

I am only young and haven't been intimate with anyone to the point of sex. But I would need to already have built up an honest relationship between my boyfriend and I first. And with honesty comes being open about having a trans history. But on the other hand I don't know if I could be intimate with someone unless he thought of me as nothing but a complete woman so trust is in there too.( Ps. Incase people think that I am saying that MtF transpeople aren't real women, that wasn't my intention.)

[Nicole]

I don't tell unless asked and I haven't been asked yet.

If what I'm getting into looks like its going to be more than a "bit of fun" I explain to them that I cannot have kids. Most guys are fine with that and leave it.
I know people will look down on me for this, but I've never had a day where I wasn't passing, my vagina is just as passable.

I've been in 1 longer relationship, we broke up because he cheated. I had many talks with my best friend about telling him, but that was a long time before this current trans movement.
These days, I might do it, as long as I would feel safe and my life wouldn't be flipped upside down.

Selfish? sometimes we have to be

[suzifrommd]

Unethical?

No. You don't owe your sex partners any piece of your social, medical, or personal history. We divulge our past, relationships, employment, places we've lived, and yes, gender presentation, when we are comfortable. Cisgender people are not ethically required to tell you they lived as a man their entire life. You are not ethically required to tell them you have not always lived as a woman.

HOWEVER, I believe it is unwise not to disclose.

You never know when you'll fall in love.

My therapist, who has been working with trans people for more than 20 years told me that in that time, she almost never sees a relationship between a cisgender man and a trans woman survive the man finding out she is trans. The only relationships she's seen last are those where the man knew from the start.

Suppose you fell in love and married the man? Do you think you could keep the fact that you are trans from him for the rest of your life? When he meets your family, immediate and extended? Can every one of your parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins be trusted to keep a secret forever (that means a lot to you but next to nothing to them)? Childhood friends? Newspaper clippings? Do you want to be wondering for the rest of your life when your husband is going to find out and whether your marriage will instantly go "boom"?

[Nicole]

Unethical?

No. You don't owe your sex partners any piece of your social, medical, or personal history. We divulge our past, relationships, employment, places we've lived, and yes, gender presentation, when we are comfortable. Cisgender people are not ethically required to tell you they lived as a man their entire life. You are not ethically required to tell them you have not always lived as a woman.

HOWEVER, I believe it is unwise not to disclose.

You never know when you'll fall in love.

My therapist, who has been working with trans people for more than 20 years told me that in that time, she almost never sees a relationship between a cisgender man and a trans woman survive the man finding out she is trans. The only relationships she's seen last are those where the man knew from the start.

Suppose you fell in love and married the man? Do you think you could keep the fact that you are trans from him for the rest of your life? When he meets your family, immediate and extended? Can every one of your parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins be trusted to keep a secret forever (that means a lot to you but next to nothing to them)? Childhood friends? Newspaper clippings? Do you want to be wondering for the rest of your life when your husband is going to find out and whether your marriage will instantly go "boom"?

That does worry me, but....
Its me and my mother, my father died a few months before I was born, my extended family are great, there has never been a issue from the moment mum explained everything.
We moved when I went full time and I didn't have a single childhood friend, every single person at school bullied me.

I guess as far as a husband, when that path comes along I'll cross it, but its the last thing I need in my life at the moment.

[januarysunshine]

Hi Zoey,
I wrote you a really thoughtful reply but my netbook ran out of battery and shut down--so I lost it...I'll just give you the short version...

I totes get where you're coming from but ethics are relative...what works for you may not work for someone else, and vice versa. All I can say to you is do what your heart tells you to do. You're incredibly fortunate to be living in a time where being trans is much more accepted --even more so than it was say 20 years ago when I had surgery in my teens. Back then, there were no where near the support systems there are now, and no where near the resources available.
The down side is that now being trans is in the spotlight--it's trending on Twitter. That makes it hard because everyone is so exposed to it, they're almost adept at spotting a bit of trachea that is a bit too prominent or hands that aren't quite as tiny as they 'should be'. Cis-women can be outed now as being trans because they have features that don't fit the mold society has declared as perfect.
So you have a very tough decision...tell or not to tell. If you tell, you limit yourself to men you are absolutely certain will accept your disclosure *and* still love you...which is a great thing--it's what everyone wants, right? But in all honesty, how many men are going to be open-minded enough to accept trans and everything that comes with it? I don't really have an answer to that because I really don't know. I *do* know that you have to be very very careful *who* you disclose to. Men have been known not to react well and women have died as a result.
By the same token, if you don't disclose, you're free to date whomever you want, which opens a bigger dating pool. However, there are certain men in that pool who can never know your trans status because they will kill you....it's happened before. So I get the terrible choice/balancing act we all have to go through when we weigh our stealth options.

My first husband knew and was ok with it. However he had his own gender issues, and was living vicariously though me. We eventually split because of that and regular marital issues...But as much as I loved him and appreciated him loving me, I knew in my heart that if he had his own gender issues--whether he expressed them or suppressed them--our marriage was doomed to fail. As much as he tried to stuff himself into a closet, eventually he'll want to emerge--like Kaitlyn Jenner...and our marriage would have been over. I realized that long before he did, and chose to end things....and he's now on wife #3 who is miserable but doesn't know why....

My current husband does not know of my status...and I'd never tell him. He's not the kind of man who could handle it. I knew that going into the relationship, based on his comments on gays and whatnot...and I would never risk my safety by telling him. But part of me knew the relationship should have ended long ago...I should have found a nice guy who loves animals and accepts everyone--but those kinds of guys are incredibly rare to find imo. So I stayed and haven't told. Part of why our marriage is failing and we're separated, is that I've been terrified down deep in my gut from day one that he would find out about my past. I'm not ashamed of me one little bit--I am however, well aware that trying to explain it to him would be impossible...he finds regular marital issues impossible to comprehend (ie. putting the toilet seat down)...there's absolutely no way I could ever reach him in a meaningful way and disclose my past to him. So yeah, I have been afraid he'd find out and get an annulment or get really mad and do something to me...But also, all violence aside, I don't want him to find out because it would shatter his male-ego and sense of self. He's no way introspective enough to understand how his own psyche works, let alone try to understand how I came to be.

So Zoey, long story short, you need to do what you feel is right in your heart. There are valid reasons for disclosing, and there are valid reasons for not disclosing. In my experience, you need to think more about how the disclosure will affect *you* and not be so concerned about his feelings. I don't mean that in a nasty way...I'm just saying, love yourself enough to not put yourself in a position where you could wind up physically hurt or worse. Whether you disclose or not--make sure that you take care of your heart and your health, and make the decision based on it's benefit to *you*....Choose which ever option you're comfortable with so long as it doesn't risk harming you.
Best wishes,
JS

[Dena]

What ever you decide, I am not going to judge you but I have a standard for myself.

My view is I will not have casual sex so anyone I anyone I am that interested in needs to know because they are a potential life time partner. If they are not able to handle that part of my life, I want them to have an escape where they can keep their dignity. I have far to many people in my life who know about my past and they will not be exclude just because I found someone new in my life. It ties into the fact I am a very honest person and the best way to avoid problems in life is to stick as close to the truth as possible. Yes, I am planing a part of my life in the near future were I will be going stealth but I will just not volunteer information. Should a partner turn up, the above rule will apply.

[Zoey]

Hi Zoey,
I wrote you a really thoughtful reply but my netbook ran out of battery and shut down--so I lost it...I'll just give you the short version...

I totes get where you're coming from but ethics are relative...what works for you may not work for someone else, and vice versa. All I can say to you is do what your heart tells you to do. You're incredibly fortunate to be living in a time where being trans is much more accepted --even more so than it was say 20 years ago when I had surgery in my teens. Back then, there were no where near the support systems there are now, and no where near the resources available.
The down side is that now being trans is in the spotlight--it's trending on Twitter. That makes it hard because everyone is so exposed to it, they're almost adept at spotting a bit of trachea that is a bit too prominent or hands that aren't quite as tiny as they 'should be'. Cis-women can be outed now as being trans because they have features that don't fit the mold society has declared as perfect.
So you have a very tough decision...tell or not to tell. If you tell, you limit yourself to men you are absolutely certain will accept your disclosure *and* still love you...which is a great thing--it's what everyone wants, right? But in all honesty, how many men are going to be open-minded enough to accept trans and everything that comes with it? I don't really have an answer to that because I really don't know. I *do* know that you have to be very very careful *who* you disclose to. Men have been known not to react well and women have died as a result.
By the same token, if you don't disclose, you're free to date whomever you want, which opens a bigger dating pool. However, there are certain men in that pool who can never know your trans status because they will kill you....it's happened before. So I get the terrible choice/balancing act we all have to go through when we weigh our stealth options.

My first husband knew and was ok with it. However he had his own gender issues, and was living vicariously though me. We eventually split because of that and regular marital issues...But as much as I loved him and appreciated him loving me, I knew in my heart that if he had his own gender issues--whether he expressed them or suppressed them--our marriage was doomed to fail. As much as he tried to stuff himself into a closet, eventually he'll want to emerge--like Kaitlyn Jenner...and our marriage would have been over. I realized that long before he did, and chose to end things....and he's now on wife #3 who is miserable but doesn't know why....

My current husband does not know of my status...and I'd never tell him. He's not the kind of man who could handle it. I knew that going into the relationship, based on his comments on gays and whatnot...and I would never risk my safety by telling him. But part of me knew the relationship should have ended long ago...I should have found a nice guy who loves animals and accepts everyone--but those kinds of guys are incredibly rare to find imo. So I stayed and haven't told. Part of why our marriage is failing and we're separated, is that I've been terrified down deep in my gut from day one that he would find out about my past. I'm not ashamed of me one little bit--I am however, well aware that trying to explain it to him would be impossible...he finds regular marital issues impossible to comprehend (ie. putting the toilet seat down)...there's absolutely no way I could ever reach him in a meaningful way and disclose my past to him. So yeah, I have been afraid he'd find out and get an annulment or get really mad and do something to me...But also, all violence aside, I don't want him to find out because it would shatter his male-ego and sense of self. He's no way introspective enough to understand how his own psyche works, let alone try to understand how I came to be.

So Zoey, long story short, you need to do what you feel is right in your heart. There are valid reasons for disclosing, and there are valid reasons for not disclosing. In my experience, you need to think more about how the disclosure will affect *you* and not be so concerned about his feelings. I don't mean that in a nasty way...I'm just saying, love yourself enough to not put yourself in a position where you could wind up physically hurt or worse. Whether you disclose or not--make sure that you take care of your heart and your health, and make the decision based on it's benefit to *you*....Choose which ever option you're comfortable with so long as it doesn't risk harming you.
Best wishes,
JS

Thank you, everyone for all the thoughtful replies. Lots of different perspectives on this issue.

Januarysunshine, I have to admit, I am a bit in awe of your ability to perpetuate this type of deception with your husband/s. Truly, I wish I could be more like you. I have often wished that I could "kill" my own conscience.

I disagree with you somewhat that I should elevate my own feelings above those of the man/partner's feelings. To my mind, that is a fairly selfish perspective, a relationship is not about me getting my 'needs' (sexual, emotional...) met at all costs, it's about both of us equally. If I was hiding this huge deal-breaker about myself that I knew would make him horrified...well, I just find that extremely selfish and disrespectful. All the relationship ideals like respect, honesty, integrity, trust, etc. go right out the window when you deceive someone like that and perpetuate such a lie, IMO.

You know, as transgender people who live in stealth, we do in some sense go 'out of the frying pan and into the fire.' We say "I'm done living a lie, now I'm going to live as the gender I truly feel." And yet, when we start living in stealth as the gender we feel, we begin living another lie: that of erasing our past and our current present as transgender people, of pretending to be someone we are not. Perhaps we are so used to living a lie all our life, of pretending to be someone we are not,  that it just feels natural so there's no disconnect at all in this type of deception: We've been faking it all our life, it's just what we're used to. But in a real romantic relationship, when the walls come down and issues of deep trust and respect come to the fore, I just feel like that is the one area of life where truth needs to be upheld. The lie cannot be perpetuated with someone I care for deeply and am intimate with. I am amazed and somewhat disturbed by people who can do this in a serious relationship.

[Northern Jane]

I am 41+ years post-op and lived stealth for a number of years when I first 'transitioned' in 1974. It was nice to be assumed to be CIS, did a lot for my self-confidence, and I felt my medical history was nobody else's business! I was kind of wild in my early years, very sexually active, but not interested in a long-term relationship so did not tell anyone I went out with - none of their business!!

My first husband did not know about that part of my background until after we split and he was angry when he found out - he was angry because he felt I did not trust him enough to tell him. The truth is that I was "born transsexual" and was so bloody sick of it that I just wanted to leave it behind.

After my first marriage broke up, I thought about the issue of stealth and although it should NOT matter to a long-term partner, it did matter to the general public so for my partner's peace of mind it is something he should be aware of.

A few years later I met someone who took a serious interest in me (though I wasn't interested initially) and although I intended to tell him before the relationship became intimate, that didn't happen - I didn't tell  him until after we slept together for the first time. When I told him about my childhood, he was very empathetic and he cried. He became my greatest protector! We were together for a number of years before a medical secretary leaked information about my medical background and it became community gossip. My husband protected me from all the gossip and I didn't find out about it until much later. (We split after 13 years for other reasons.)

I dated a bit after my second marriage and found that 'disclosing' almost invariably ended any budding relationship. The only ones that didn't run away stayed around in the hopes of getting sex.

Almost 30 years post-op medical tests turned up the fact that I have a uterus so I was actually Intersex. That just made everything too bloody complicated! I 'came out' to all my close friends and my life story was even included in a book. Pretty much everyone even remotely close to me knows about my screwed-up childhood though casual acquaintances don't know. I find this arrangement the most comfortable - no secrets to hide. If someone at arm's length were to ask me about my background, I would simply tell them it is none of their business. If someone closer asks, I will answer them factually and candidly.

I recently started seeing someone with whom a long-term relationship is a very real possibility and he has been perfectly fine with my weird childhood.

Deep stealth can not be maintained indefinitely - it will come out sooner or later, by one means or another so I would rather not waste time developing a friendship with someone who will freak out.

JMHO

[januarysunshine]

Thank you, everyone for all the thoughtful replies. Lots of different perspectives on this issue.

Januarysunshine, I have to admit, I am a bit in awe of your ability to perpetuate this type of deception with your husband/s. Truly, I wish I could be more like you. I have often wished that I could "kill" my own conscience.

I disagree with you somewhat that I should elevate my own feelings above those of the man/partner's feelings. To my mind, that is a fairly selfish perspective, a relationship is not about me getting my 'needs' (sexual, emotional...) met at all costs, it's about both of us equally. If I was hiding this huge deal-breaker about myself that I knew would make him horrified...well, I just find that extremely selfish and disrespectful. All the relationship ideals like respect, honesty, integrity, trust, etc. go right out the window when you deceive someone like that and perpetuate such a lie, IMO.

You know, as transgender people who live in stealth, we do in some sense go 'out of the frying pan and into the fire.' We say "I'm done living a lie, now I'm going to live as the gender I truly feel." And yet, when we start living in stealth as the gender we feel, we begin living another lie: that of erasing our past and our current present as transgender people, of pretending to be someone we are not. Perhaps we are so used to living a lie all our life, of pretending to be someone we are not,  that it just feels natural so there's no disconnect at all in this type of deception: We've been faking it all our life, it's just what we're used to. But in a real romantic relationship, when the walls come down and issues of deep trust and respect come to the fore, I just feel like that is the one area of life where truth needs to be upheld. The lie cannot be perpetuated with someone I care for deeply and am intimate with. I am amazed and somewhat disturbed by people who can do this in a serious relationship.

Hi Zoey,
I think you might have misunderstood a bit of what I was saying. I'm not saying I've killed my conscience or practice a deception. Look at Kim Petras....she's a girl. She used to be male. In every sense, she's female now. She gets to look forward to a life of being the woman she was meant to be and had she not been famous before SRS, she would be just another gorgeous young girl out dating and living her life. So what I'm trying to say, is if you feel you're being 'deceptive' to someone, then you're not accepting your womanhood, not owning it. To me, there's nothing more to disclose than an inability to have kids. I, like Kim Petras and other young transgendered women, have always dressed, acted and behaved as female. So in my case, there aren't any picture of me in boy clothes playing with guns and peeing standing up. On my end of the trans-spectrum, I've always been fem to the extreme...sitting down to pee, long hair, and being called she/her by people who were not specifically aware of my gender status. So for me, regardless of what physical issue I had, I was female and I had a birth defect corrected. It doesn't seem like deception because I was never really male and definitely not a man.
I think too Northern Jane has some amazing, awesome points to her post--and I think it was such a brilliant piece of writing, it should help you come to terms with how you deal with the issue of stealth as well.
As you can see from both our posts, how you live, how you disclose or not--it's up to you....how you feel, what you think, etc. And like her I found I had other medical issues--under-developed ovaries that were just hanging around in there doing nothing....so perhaps I am 'technically' intersexed too? I just self-identify as transsexual though because that's good enough for me.

When I was talking about worrying about yourself, selfish is good but I'm sorry you misconstrued that. I was specifically addressing the point of putting your safety and mental-well being ahead of anyone else. Part of developing a healthy psyche is creating healthy boundaries and protecting your own sense of self. If you're spending your time worrying about how someone else will react to you, you're neglecting to love yourself. Love yourself enough to be careful who/how you disclose and consider the ramifications before you do so. It's not about being selfish or uncaring about another's feelings--it's about keeping you from being killed. You could reveal to a guy you thought you know, and wind up dead--it happens. If you look at it from a perspective of is this safe for *me*,then you can make a better choice of to disclose or not.

I really am sorry you're struggling with this. It does get easier over time when you can decide where on the spectrum you fall--who you want to tell or if you want to tell. There really isn't a one-size fits all answer. It's just what is best for your mental well-being.
Peace,
JS

[Jessica Merriman]

YES IT IS UNETHICAL!! You really want to start a loving relationship based on a lie? Stealth is one of the biggest lies I see here. In my career I have personally used and witnessed the vast databases that can out you. Stealth? 1815 yes, 2015 no way. All it takes is a car accident where an exam discovers the lie. You risk your life when you lie about this as well. Have sex with the wrong person who eventually discovers your secret and you will be a case file with a fatal coding.

[Zoey]

JanuarySunshine: Yes, of course it's something I struggle with. It should be struggled with. It's HUGE. People get killed over this stuff. And if you value honesty and integrity in a relationship, it's HUGE from that perspective as well.

In reading your response to me, you seem to have "reframed" your status as transgender in your own mind, rationalizing it so that you are not actually deceiving your partner because, after all, you have always considered yourself a woman. And yet, you are NOT biologically female and you acknowledge that this fact would be something that your partner/s would not be able to handle. So make no mistake, you are deceiving them - in a big way, when you hide this from them. Not saying you're the devil, just trying to get real.

I am in my 30s and, like you, I tend to attract more traditional types of guys who I don't feel would be able to handle the fact that I'm trans. For that reason, I never enter into relationships, which leads to hurt feelings, confusion, and unfulfilled expectations when the guy and I both know that there's a lot of potential there. It is a very painful and lonely way to live, but I do it because the alternative - maintaining such an epic deception - would be unconscionable to me. There are no easy answers to this, it's a complex and painful thing.

[Nicole]

YES IT IS UNETHICAL!! You really want to start a loving relationship based on a lie? Stealth is one of the biggest lies I see here. In my career I have personally used and witnessed the vast databases that can out you. Stealth? 1815 yes, 2015 no way. All it takes is a car accident where an exam discovers the lie. You risk your life when you lie about this as well. Have sex with the wrong person who eventually discovers your secret and you will be a case file with a fatal coding.

I explain to people that I can't have kids if the topic comes up early on, if the relationship is getting serious and I haven't told them that I ca't have kids, I let them know.
Most guys I've been with don't ask why.

I've only ever been in something meaningful once, I told him that I couldn't have kids and he was loving and supportive, he never questioned why. We broke up a long while after that and like I've already said in this thread I often wanted to tell him, I just couldn't.

I get a bit p**sed off at people who try to shame people who are stealth.
I know I'll never be in our words "cis" (something I never use), but to the world I'm 100% woman.
I live my life without anyone or anything questioning my gender. Yes I pass, I pass down there as well, Of the people who know, my family, my 2 best friends and my doctors, there isn't they think about me that says "oh, shes still just a ->-bleeped-<-".
There are millions of born women who cannot have kids, are they any less of a woman than the next woman, born that way or trans?

[januarysunshine]

I'm with Nichole on this. No one has the right to judge who is to be stealth--who to tell, when, whatever....it's a personal decision. As personal as the decision whether or not to have SRS. Deception is in one's own mind. If you think you're being deceptive, then you are being deceptive.

The question though I ask in all honesty and with deep respect, is since there are such very strong feelings against stealth, why do so many women undergo FFS? I truly don't understand it. If you're going to reveal your past gender status anyways, why would one undergo hours of painful surgery and spend thousands of dollars to 'look female'? ...and then go and tell people you're 'not female'. Is that not deceptive to attempt to look perfectly, symmetrically female in every way and then drop the bombshell, oh sorry honey this tiny little chin was purchased last year... I'm not trying to start a fight or make anyone feel badly, I truly am asking from my heart because I simply do not understand. FFS seems to be very very popular these days, and yet many of the same proponents of FFS for 'passing' are then blurting out that they're not women, or they're transgendered or whatever other term is popular now. Why waste time and money on a surgery, which you have to admit is also 'deceptive'--you're altering your physicality to mimic the features of a natal female. I'm not judging, I'm asking a valid question and really am wondering about this.
I don't see any difference in terms of 'deception' between someone who has had serious FFS and then meets a guy and eventually discloses her gender status...because she's obviously used her 'deception' of FFS to attract him in the first place....It's no different than someone stealth who doesn't disclose--if you consider that a deception.
And isn't the focus of pre-SRS surgery to get the person to accept themselves and find a way to integrate into society on a level they're comfortable with? Maybe some people are not comfortable going through the entire transition process only to have to 'out' themselves somewhere down the road.
I think this is a topic where we should agree to disagree since there is no one correct answer to the question and I think it's best to live and let live.
Peace.
I

[Nicole]

I also think that if someone came out with "are you transgendered?" I would say yes, no one has ever asked me.

I came out to my 2 best friends because they were wondering why I was so shy in a few things, yet so outgoing with others. I sat them down, explained it all, both got up, hugged me and its never been spoken of again.

[hvmatt]

I can see that everyone has a point and Nicole and Januarysunshine should be able to live their lives the way they lead them without judgement.What works for them may not work for others .They have passing privilege which not all transexual women have.How they use it and what risks they take(as perceived by others) is up to them. Aren't most of us just trying to survive in the world the best way we know how.As someone who transitioned older I have too much history and cannot deny who I was but I dont advertise it to new people I meet.They take me for the woman I am and is it deceitful not to tell them?They never knew him so why complicate matters.As for relationships,I'm in a long term steady one and  I have no idea what I'd do if I was back on the dating scene.When guys have hit on me in the past nothing has ever happened(much to their disappointment!!) but I have enjoyed the attention.

[kelly_aus]

YES IT IS UNETHICAL!! You really want to start a loving relationship based on a lie? Stealth is one of the biggest lies I see here. In my career I have personally used and witnessed the vast databases that can out you. Stealth? 1815 yes, 2015 no way. All it takes is a car accident where an exam discovers the lie. You risk your life when you lie about this as well. Have sex with the wrong person who eventually discovers your secret and you will be a case file with a fatal coding.

Jessica, you and I are more than aware of just how thin the veil of stealth is, but don't try and actually convince any one of it because they simply won't believe.

People, you'd be amazed at what is floating around in various government systems about you and your past. And, of course, a serious post-accident physical exam is going to raise questions - even for post-ops..

[Cindy]

One thing that I think is missing in such discussion is what is meant by 'stealth' (from a trans* view) compared to deception and lying.

They have profoundly different meanings. I'm not sure what 'stealth' actually means in trans*expression and where it fits, if at all, in common terminology.

Is there a relationship among these expressions as far as we are concerned? I don't know.

I would never lie to a partner if he asked me if I was a trans sexual woman. If he doesn't ask, am I deceiving him? And is that important to anyone?

If we look at deceiving a partner then what am I deceiving him about? That I can't have his children? I'm 60, I'm sexually active, I couldn't have children anyway, unless I'm an unusual 60 year old (OK I am but not in that way )

If a partner asks if I am trans sexual and I say No, I'm lying. That is immoral, at least with my morals,; and no matter the consequence I would have to say; Yes. If he no longer wanted me then, OK, I'll have a cry, get over it and live another day.

But what do we mean by stealth in that scenario?

I'm not sure. As Kelly and Jessica have said, if stealth means hiding your past completely it is probably not possible unless you are in a witness protection program run by Government agencies.

So if Nicole and januarysunshine live in a happy relationship where questions are not asked. In which they are loved by their partner then they are neither lying or deceiving.
Is this a case of don't ask, don't tell? The problem only arises if their partners ask.

Sorry trying to get my head around it all.