Can Discrimination exist within the Transgender Community?

[Isabelle]

I should point out that even if I decide someone seems about as rational as a fish on a bicycle, I'd never be rude. I just file their advice and opinions in a different way. I have friends that I consider to be as mad as hatters, it doesn't mean I don't like them all the best people are mad.

[AnonyMs]

I should point out that even if I decide someone seems about as rational as a fish on a bicycle, I'd never be rude. I just file their advice and opinions in a different way. I have friends that I consider to be as mad as hatters, it doesn't mean I don't like them all the best people are mad.

We're very similar personalities.

[chuufk]

I have really realized in the last year or so if you do not have a picture of yourself that is either dressed up or in female clothes that you are looked upon as a joke and that you perhaps are a troll.

That is me in trouble then. I never post my photo.

I am starting to care less and less what people even within the transgender community have to say or what they think. I am now starting to realize why we have such a high percentage of suicides

There are a lot of damaged people in this community. For many of us, growing up trans is traumatic in many different ways and a lot of carry that baggage with us. Depression is common - far more common than the general population and depression can lead so easily to dark thoughts.

...we do nothing to embrace our own no matter what.

I think the reason for this is because we tend to travel alone on this journey. We are not very common and in some places the next trans person might be miles away and you not even spot them. Even where I live, in major city with millions of people around me I know about 10 trans people.

I could join in with "The trans scene" because there is one and a good sized one too less than 10 miles away and I know the people who organise it and I used to go, but I no longer do because I do not want to be part of "The Scene". I just want to be ordinary. Tonight I am going dancing with some cis-women because outside of "The Scene" who else can I go with? There are no other trans women around here that I know. The nearest I know of is about 30 miles away.

[brianna1016]

I have really realized in the last year or so if you do not have a picture of yourself that is either dressed up or in female clothes that you are looked upon as a joke and that you perhaps are a troll. I think I am just frustrated that I am not taken serious because I have a male picture posted and that its not me in female clothes and that its still the me that was born the way I have to deal with being.

Who said you have to have a picture of yourself to be taken seriously?

[KathyLauren]

Sandy, I haven't been here long enough to have experienced the discrimination you describe, but I am glad you have raised the issue.  If it is happening, it needs to be talked about.

I am in much the same situation as you.  Though I identify as female, I am presenting as male, including the beard.  (Hence the cute kitty pic as my avatar instead of a photo.)  It is just not possible for me to present as female right now.

I am thankful that I haven't received any static about my decisions so far on this forum.  Everyone who has responded to my questions and rants has been supportive.  This stuff is hard enough to deal with without having our friends and allies give us a hard time about it.

Regarding the beard, I had to do some serious introspection once I identified as trans-female to figure out why I keep it.  Thinking back to when I first grew it, it was a bit of a rebellion against the "normal" male.  "Normal" men shave.  Not wanting to identify that way (though I didn't understand why at the time), I decided not to.  It's an odd logic, but logical nonetheless.  Obviously, if I eventually transition, it will be the first thing to go.

[Samantha C]

Sandy,
I'm am personally glad you are here their are a lot of good hearted souls here who are seeking their truth.  Sometime they mistakenly think that is yours.  If something is not for you then read on someone who understands may be on the next post.  Strangely I have found answers to things that puzzle me all over the place, I am mtf but I have found very good advice on the ftm and other forums.  I'm taking my avatar pic to my ffs doctor when I get there and telling him that's what I want (he's going to laugh and probably so will I).  I look in my mirror and in my light Hazel eyes I see Samantha looking back at me she always has.   
We acknowledge you because of who you are,  we are here for you Sandy.

Hugs 

[kittenpower]

I was on HRT for five years and had some FFS before I started presenting femininely, and I went to support group meetings dressed in guy clothes the whole time; some people didn't take me seriously, but most did. Do what you need to do, and at your own pace, sister.

[Jill F]

I was on HRT for five years and had some FFS before I started presenting femininely, and I went to support group meetings dressed in guy clothes the whole time; some people didn't take me seriously, but most did. Do what you need to do, and at your own pace, sister.

Seriously?  Transitioned or not, it doesn't make one any more or less transgender.  I am no more transgender now than I was when I was 4 or 40.

TTTs need a fat reality check.

[Mariah]

 
Okay folks anytime you sugget a group or person is less legitimate is against TOS. Lets be understanding that some are perfectly comfortable posting a picture as they are now. Lets please keep the TOS in mind.  Topic unlocked. Thanks
Mariah

9. If you disapprove of people who are Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual; or activities which cross gender boundaries; take your arguments to a more appropriate website.

10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
• Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.

[Obfuskatie]

While I understand that everyone has their own trials and tribulations as well as baggage they carry with them indefinitely, the desire to stratify our community is poisonous and insidious and it doesn't belong here on Susan's. No one is more real or authentic or better than. If you ever run into discrimination here, pm a mod. I don't think I can even try to be understanding when it comes to making others feel less welcome here. This forum is and needs to remain a safe place, as without it I wouldn't be here today.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cindy]

Thank you Katie.

I cannot accept intolerance.

I cannot accept a concept that any human can be 'better' than another.

I certainly will never accept that any gender diverse person is in any way superior to another. We are all wonderful and we should be in glory of our diversity.

What a community - so many wonderful people - so much to celebrate.

[Tessa James]

Having been part of the out LGBTQ community all my adult life internal discrimination within our communities is not new to me.  Progressives have called it the "circular firing squad."

How we socialize, learn and grow does contain elements of what we might consider "judgment" and clarifying our values is not done in a vacuum.  If I want to become a better person that may reflect a judgment that there are more desirable characteristics I want to develop.  We do compare ourselves to others and often have aspirations relative to some sort of scale that may be seen as discriminatory.  Humans are expert at discrimination and can find differences between people at a glance.  I too could be called out as I discriminate every day and can too quickly chose people I will readily associate with and those I may avoid.  Is that good, bad or ?   I sure have been fooled by appearances though.  Sometimes a pretty smile hides fangs eh?

Since we do discriminate, sometimes for self preservation or just to avoid the A holes of any type, perhaps we can become more aware of of our own biases.  Building more empathy and compassion in to our thinking is so very needed.

I will never forget my first trans support group meeting.  I looked around at women who looked like cis women.  I cried when i said "i know what a look like (a male appearing person with a beard and mens clothing) but that is not who i am."

Yes, we are more than this bodily shell and anatomy is still not destiny.

[Sandy74]

I guess I just posted this because I sometimes get frustrated that I am no further along in wanting to be a woman than when I first came here and the only thing I do is wear panties under my male clothes every day or as much as I can and I am realizing that they are more comfortable than anything.

I recently shaved my beard and yet I will most likely grow it back for the winter because its nice to have when I am skiing every day. I would love to live alone this winter so I could dress up under my male clothes but I cannot do that at the moment and part of me just wants to say hell with it and keep a drawer full of panties and wear them when I want to wear them and hell with what my roommate ends up saying and if he bashes me for it then so be it.

I guess I just get frustrated that I am still very much a man when I very much want to be a woman and I feel like I am not taken seriously because I am that way, I don't post pictures of me in a pretty dress or I don't have any outfits that I really like or look even good in and I feel like people may not approach me because I am that way and I just get frustrated with that or it all can be in my head and nobody has that outlook on me anyway.

I used to not be very sensitive to much but perhaps dealing with my femme side I am becoming more sensitive even though I haven't taken any hormones. The other day I got a nasty message from someone and the admin know about it and perhaps that sparked my anger and hostility that people can just be cold within the community that you are trying to get help in.

I would never bash the transgender community in any sort of way, I love being here and I love the other forums that I have visited as well, I feel so relaxed here and comfortable. I am so close to just telling my dad and my stepmom that I am transgender even though I know that I could be years away from even dressing full time or even close to living my life that way.

I have realized that I could take hormones now and just roll with the punches once I see a therapist and no that I don't have to dress to have the feminine qualities that I want and I don't think anyone has the right to say yes or no against that because we all live with this differently and to say that someone is wrong because they are bucking the system and doing it there way is just pathetic in my mind.

Perhaps if I do see a gender therapist and I get to the point of being able to take hormones I will just keep dressing as a man and when I am ready and I feel like it inside then I will let the woman out and act and be more femme but on the outside I will do it when I feel I am ready.

Perhaps this is just me building up my confidence and perhaps I needed that nasty letter to light a fire underneath me and get me going, perhaps I should thank that person rather than hate that person and ignore that person.

Thanks for the responses and There have been more than I could ever hope for, I just thought it would be ignored and buried at the bottom. Thanks for being honest and truthful about how you feel.

[Isabelle]

My advice to you is this, consider the fact that pretty much every person that transitioned, was pretty similar to the way you are now. Lots of fear and doubt. What's my job going think, what's my partner going to do, what are my friends going to say, will I pass, what if I never pass etc etc, there's hundreds of questions like this. The only difference between you, and someone who feels their trnasistion is "finished" or "dealt with" or however you want to put is, at some point in time, they decided to actually take real steps toward taking responsibility for their own happiness. Life is very short, full of pain, sickness and death. Just take steps. Ask your GP if you can start hrt. You can go on it for 6 months and the only real change will be much nicer skin but, you might find it helps you "break the ice" a bit. It's not a massive irreversible commitment, you can just take it for a spin and see if you like it. Don't worry about what other people think or say, for two reasons
1, what others think isn't any of your business and,
2, why should you care about anyone else's thoughts?
Just worry about your thoughts, and try to make yourself happy. One day, soon if you're unlucky, time will run out. How much are you willing to throw away before let yourself be happy? 

[Cindy]

Oh Sandy!

I agree with Isabelle, it is your life, your body, your wants.

Life can change very quickly, it took 5 seconds for my wife to go from a healthy active woman with a great job, friends career everything - to being totally paralysed.

We have to live for every second, embrace it and wring the best we can out of it.

It doesn't matter how you present! If you are happy going on HRT and presenting as a non-feminine woman - well do it! If you want to do FFS, VFS, GRS, XYX, well do it!

If you want to go out in a mini and stilletos, do it!

I will support you as will 99% of transgender people. Our journeys are all unique, there is no right way and no wrong way, there is just your way.

And I would walk hand in hand with you no matter what you choose. And I would be proud to do so!

[Paige]

1, what others think isn't any of your business and,
2, why should you care about anyone else's thoughts?
Just worry about your thoughts, and try to make yourself happy. One day, soon if you're unlucky, time will run out. How much are you willing to throw away before let yourself be happy?

Hi Isabelle,

Your second point is really the hard one for me.  I've had many discussions with my therapist about this and still don't know why I care so much about what other people think.  Perhaps because you get it drilled into you as a kid?  Don't embarrass the family.  I can really understand people wondering how this will affect their spouse, kids, parents and friends.   You only have one life to live but then so do they and there's more of them then you. 

On the other hand, this could be a good life lesson for all those people and really what harm are you actually causing?  Maybe it's just the spouse that really is affected, but then people have marital difficulties or get divorced for all sorts of reasons.  It's not really that different.

Sorry, as always I'm very confused about this,
Paige

[Cindy]

Dear Paige,

Firstly may I say I love your posts. They are thoughtful and heartfelt.

I'll try and answer you question in an odd, and sad way.

I'm basically an oncologist., my clients have lymphoma or leaukemia. Our success rate in cure and in prolonging life has been dramatic.

Why mention that?

Invariably the loved ones of my clients would sell their souls for their relative to live and be healthy.  It is often a defining moment in a relationship. Realising how much a person means to them, and what that loss may be.

There is a realisation that existence of thir child, their partner, their relative transcends the family problems, the spousal argument, the family conflicts mean nothing.

Is this any different to turning to your loved one and saying you are TG and have to be you. No they have no recourse to your past, and cannot imagine our life pain.  They need somehow to accept that if they love you, well they love you.

Are we responsible for the pain we put on our family or friends?

See above for my cancer clients, they are not responsible for the agony they cause.

Yes, many live with it, believe it or not. "I'd be better of dead than see my family suffer through my illness" is not uncommon.

In many aspects of life humans crucify themselves for the feelings of others. I don't think that is a useful way of living.

We are better off accepting ourselves, each indidual as a unique glory.

[Rejennyrated]

Hi Isabelle,

Your second point is really the hard one for me.  I've had many discussions with my therapist about this and still don't know why I care so much about what other people think.  Perhaps because you get it drilled into you as a kid?  Don't embarrass the family.  I can really understand people wondering how this will affect their spouse, kids, parents and friends.   You only have one life to live but then so do they and there's more of them then you. 

On the other hand, this could be a good life lesson for all those people and really what harm are you actually causing?  Maybe it's just the spouse that really is affected, but then people have marital difficulties or get divorced for all sorts of reasons.  It's not really that different.

Sorry, as always I'm very confused about this,
Paige

In my experience Paige - both as a trainee clinician and as somebody who has lived a bit, people will use all sorts of psychological tactics to make you live the way THEY want you to live. At the end of the day what you have to realise is that its all bull crap - as long you are not actively setting out to harm, then it is you that will answer for the way you lived and not them! So you might as well live authentically.

What you can't predict is how someone else will react, which is why worrying about "not offending so and so" is a fools game. There have been countless stories on here of people who didnt tell some member of their family because they were convinced that they would not understand, only find out years later when the secret came out that that person became their biggest allie and only really wanted them to be happy!

Worse one or two of them have then also been upset precisely that they weren't told earlier! So you can't win in that game of second guessing and the best thing is to simply be honest with good heart.

Add to that the fact that if you are not true to yourself that warps you as a person. You wont notice it, but others may. You will be in pain, and people in pain are often less generous, less forgiving, more judegemental and generally not as nice to be around, because they are feeling bad inside. So in attempting to repress yourself there's a very good chance that far from minimising the harm, you are actually making it worse, because you are hurting yourself and probably also being less able to be warm and genuine towards others.

So for all those reasons you should allow yourself to feel good about being honest and true to your own inner self. As shakespere wisely put it in Hamlet :-

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

[Paige]

Dear Paige,

Firstly may I say I love your posts. They are thoughtful and heartfelt.

I'll try and answer you question in an odd, and sad way.

I'm basically an oncologist., my clients have lymphoma or leaukemia. Our success rate in cure and in prolonging life has been dramatic.

Why mention that?

Invariably the loved ones of my clients would sell their souls for their relative to live and be healthy.  It is often a defining moment in a relationship. Realising how much a person means to them, and what that loss may be.

There is a realisation that existence of thir child, their partner, their relative transcends the family problems, the spousal argument, the family conflicts mean nothing.

Is this any different to turning to your loved one and saying you are TG and have to be you. No they have no recourse to your past, and cannot imagine our life pain.  They need somehow to accept that if they love you, well they love you.

Are we responsible for the pain we put on our family or friends?

See above for my cancer clients, they are not responsible for the agony they cause.

Yes, many live with it, believe it or not. "I'd be better of dead than see my family suffer through my illness" is not uncommon.

In many aspects of life humans crucify themselves for the feelings of others. I don't think that is a useful way of living.

We are better off accepting ourselves, each indidual as a unique glory.

Hi Cindy,

Thanks so much for your comment.   You're so right that this isn't a useful way to live a life, lots of regret, feeling shame and your mind constantly fixated on your gender. 

You always have a way of making me feel better.
Take care,
Paige

[Paige]

In my experience Paige - both as a trainee clinician and as somebody who has lived a bit, people will use all sorts of psychological tactics to make you live the way THEY want you to live. At the end of the day what you have to realise is that its all bull crap - as long you are not actively setting out to harm, then it is you that will answer for the way you lived and not them! So you might as well live authentically.

Hi Jenny,

You hit the nail on the head with that one.  My wife is very good at manipulating me.    She has basically known since  just after we got together 28 years ago that I was transgender.   Early on I would tell her that I thought I could get over it, but it never happened and now I know this is impossible.  We discuss the issue every once and a while but she really doesn't like talking about it.  When she feels things aren't going her way, she's gets very distant.   That's her signal to me to back off contemplating transitioning.  You know she has a right to not to want me to transition but using tactics like this almost makes me want to do it more.  But it has worked in the past so she continues to use this technique.

I have tried to get her to go to therapy, couples or by herself.  She's not interested.  She thinks this will just help me on my way.

What you can't predict is how someone else will react, which is why worrying about "not offending so and so" is a fools game. There have been countless stories on here of people who didnt tell some member of their family because they were convinced that they would not understand, only find out years later when the secret came out that that person became their biggest allie and only really wanted them to be happy!

Worse one or two of them have then also been upset precisely that they weren't told earlier! So you can't win in that game of second guessing and the best thing is to simply be honest with good heart.

Add to that the fact that if you are not true to yourself that warps you as a person. You wont notice it, but others may. You will be in pain, and people in pain are often less generous, less forgiving, more judegemental and generally not as nice to be around, because they are feeling bad inside. So in attempting to repress yourself there's a very good chance that far from minimising the harm, you are actually making it worse, because you are hurting yourself and probably also being less able to be warm and genuine towards others.

So for all those reasons you should allow yourself to feel good about being honest and true to your own inner self. As shakespere wisely put it in Hamlet :-

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

I've always wonder how hiding who I am has changed my personality over the years.   I've been very guarded about being transgender and my femininity, always trying not to give away my cover.   I do have some deep resentment of life even though I've had a pretty good go of it.   


Sorry Sandy I think I've taken the thread off track.

Paige