Learning & pampering with Thailand kathoey (ladyboys)

[Richenda]

Hi everyone,

I think my first attempt at this post may have been automatically deleted because I now realise I mentioned a banned drug, so will try again.

I've had the most amazing experiences in Thailand. I guess it all began when a married friend suggested we go to Patpong in Bangkok. I was pretty apprehensive about this as I didn't want anything seedy but it turned out to be more than fine. We decided to stay outside drinking at a bar on the pavement, but as we walked past one of the ladyboy clubs one of them came up to me, felt my nipples through my t-shirt, looked me in the eyes and said, 'you're one of us, you're kathoey.' Well, blow me down with a feather duster. I've only been on HRT on and off for 12 months, often more off than on, though it's true that my nipples and breasts have shown a significant change.

What followed is one of the most fun and hilarious nights of my life when they asked if I wanted them to make me up. So I did just that: we sat out whilst they pampered me, showed me tips and applied the makeup. It was fabulous.

Some of them are, by all objective criteria, just drop dead gorgeous girls ... except many still have their penises. This is partly in some cases due to lacking funds to complete SRS, but others want to retain penises.

I've chatted to lots of them and most knew when they were very young that they wanted to be ladyboys. They started the hormones pre-puberty, which I think is significant. Most self-med which whilst we may disapprove is the reality (so don't ban this post for stating it like it is please!). They take a mixture of drugs which I'll explain in a reply to this in case I'm not allowed to mention them.

What this has all done too is raise significant questions for me. Several ladyboys have spontaneously said the same thing to me: that I'm one of them. This has come from people hundreds of miles apart so it's evidently something recognisable to them.

The term 'kathoey' can be considered by some derogatory, whilst others like it. Ladyboy is often preferred, whilst some like just lady and equivalent. And whilst I disapprove of reducing gender to looks, they are often incredibly beautiful. There's the old joke that the best looking girls in Thailand aren't. Well, when I sent a pic to my mum of myself with one she wrote back 'what a pretty girl!'

There are two other things I want to say and will do so in replies in case they need to be removed by the admins (which does feel a bit weird but never mind).

[Richenda]

Okay, two further comments then.

First up, this has all led me to question the way we gender identify. We tend to like categorisations. Society uses it to bring both order and control. I personally hate the M and F boxes which appear because, for me, gender is so much more fluid. It's not something you can pin down that easily. Interestingly, some on here have the zeal of conversion: and I've seen comments that you're not really female unless you have full SRS. This to me is possibly a little reductionist and it slightly risks the counter that womanhood could be more associated with the uterus, which for all sorts of reasons is very problematic (not least those who have hysterectomies).

I just think this experience has reminded me once again that gender is incredibly complex, that it's so much more than the bits below, or on top. And therefore I do wonder if websites the world over and governments should take a lead from Thailand and include  L (ladyboy) or K (kathoey) or T (transsexual) or equivalent category for those who see themselves identifying differently from the traditional M and F categories? Which box could a Thai ladyboy tick on international websites?

I'm T or L and proud of it 

[Mariah]

Locked for review.

[Mariah]

Reopening thread, but still being reviewed Please remember TOS 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10. Thanks
Mariah

[Richenda]

I've modified both posts to comply.

And I won't post about meds on this thread. I'd also like to remind anyone who reads this that self-med is a very, very, dangerous practice (which nearly killed me) and in no way would I advocate the approach. Always make every effort to see a doctor, endocrinologist, and request regular blood tests.

[stephaniec]

Why bother with labels . I like to be introduced to people by my name Stephanie. Really what business is it of anybody what I consider myself other than Stephanie anyway. If I meet someone and become friends or are just acquaintances  that's how they refer to me as Stephanie not hey non-op bi trans MTF how's it doing. I really wouldn't want to walk around in public or private with embroidering on my clothes designating that I'm non-op bi trans MTF.

[Richenda]

Yep I think you're right. I'd like to see M & F abolished ideally rather than more labels. Will it ever happen? I don't know. I don't see why it's of any relevance whatsoever on all websites everywhere whether someone is 'M' or 'F.' I really hate filling those in.

For things like public toilets though?