Thank you all for this interesting "thread." I apologize in advance for my lengthy answer but you took your time to help me and I want to respond to each of you as honestly as I can. People say "don't talk about religion" because it carries some risk -- hopefully, nothing will offend as I try to work things out in my mind. Because "belief" or "faith" in religion (something scientifically unprovable so far) is an individual and subjective choice, I guess I knew I knew that it would be a literal miracle if I read a post here and something clicked and - bingo - I got religion. But I hoped and, perhaps in time, something will click. In the meantime...
JAMES - (1) A "spiritual journey"....yes, that's a good way to put it. I guess I seem to be stuck on the spiritual highway onramp while others are cruising along, happy as clams. They say "spiritual" people live longer - I'd like that but somehow haven't found the method to hang my problems and hopes on a god. It would be comforting but there's a part of me that wonders if an inanimate object like a chair would hold my problems just as efficiently. (3) You say you can't answer why you believe. Thanks for that honesty. And, you're right. Hitler did cause much grief. (4) You mention that, in the bible, "the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings." While this is true, it's like "preaching to the choir" - the choir isn't going to disagree. A written history by impartial people who don't believe would be more conclusive proof. Two other things -- the writing -- how many people, as the bible was being written, could read? Also, the early printing presses would make mass dissimination to a variety of masses of different beliefs difficult. Much of what gets passed on, I have a feeling, gets passed on by literate monks, one person to another. What got saved was the bible. What didn't get saved are writings that might disagree. We'll perhaps never know. I agree with you and others that the bible has many useful morality stories. Thank you James for providing fruit for thought.
KIMBERLY - Yes, there is a certain "wolf leading the pack of sheep" attitude with religion and I understand your discomfort. What's even more disconcerting is that some religious leaders have been arrested for sodomizing those sheep. And even that - the pedaphile business - doesn't cause the Catholic church to re-examine itself as to whether priests should be allowed to marry. As Dennis says, later on, the church seems to demand "mindless obedience." I sometimes think of how the father in "Fidler On The Roof" was able to change and allow his daughter to marry despite "traditions." Having non-questioning elders under the Pope is like having "yes men" on the board at Enron...sooner or later, something terrible may happen and you'll probably blame the wrong thing.
WENDY - (2) You state, "God will not accept any person that does not believe. Being saved is the Grace of God and not an act earned by human judgement. God saves us as a gift. If you believe you are saved. If you do not believe you are not saved. Humans do not accept us if we are not like them." If I believe, I will be saved. Yes, I got that part. The part about WHY I should believe something I can't prove - that's the hard part. And there's no sense in God threatening me with Hell if I don't believe. That's a bad argument, in my opinion. Would anyone buy snake oil from a salesman if they said you'd go to Hell if you didn't buy it? No, your logic would take over and say that this person is suspect. I agree with you that the universe could be three dimensions or who knows what. There is much unseeable and thus, so far, unprovable. (3) I agree that a person named Jesus existed in real life. It's just the magical/spiritual stuff I have a problem believing. I'm sorry that GLBT churches are usually Christian - I don't have FAITH that he was the son of god any more than there's a "holy ghost." I'm not saying Jesus isn't the son of god. I just want more proof than society just telling me, "believe." It's hard to get there if you're suspicious and analytical.
CASSIE - I'm happy for you that God has been in your life from the beginning. I grew up in an Episcopelian house and two of my four brothers are VERY religious. My parents were not religious at all. How two out of four ended up very religious is a mystery to me. It's not that I haven't tried. I'm sure that if I'd have some of the visions that you say you have, it'd all be much clearer for me. I'm not working now and it'd be very handy to know where my life may be going. You say, "He always answers your prayers. You may not like the answer." Heck, I'd settle for hearing any answer. There is just silence. You state that "You may not believe me." It's not that at all -- I believe you believe. Truly, I do. I wonder how much of your premonitions are just that -- premonitions. Whether you attribute them to faith or not, I believe that you do experience them. Again, you're lucky. The only time I ever had a premonition was selling all my stocks right before a huge stock market downward crash. That, and not going down an empty excalator in San Francisco...a thug passed me because I turned away at the last second. I followed a group down the escalator and, at the bottom, found him across the room, loitering. His eyes met mine and I knew his aims were mean and vicious. Maybe God clued me in, saved me. I'll never know. Cassie, you theorize that maybe your gift of premonitions may cause people like me to reconsider having faith. Maybe. There's a lot of unexplainable stuff in life.
RANA - (1) Yes, I've heard the argument that the world's ills are God's test of us. The philosopher Bertrand Russell said that "one can't sit at a dying child's bedside and believe that God exists." My religious brother feels that "suffering exists because we are separated from Him" and that "love is not genuine until it is tested." I understand that good qualities such as self-sacrifice, courage and fortitude could not be tested without angst. I have to wonder, though, why such self-sacrificing, courageous and RELIGIOUS people such as the miners would die. Either the world's ill's are God's test or they're random sad occurences that, due to free will, are not God's test. (2) You state, "I don't believe the Catholic church is bigotted." I'm no expert but I thought the current Pope came out recently with an edict against the "gay lifestyle." I've heard some priests offer that they'd love for gays to join their church. For awhile I feel good, until they add, "so we can help them to change." (3) Thank you for offering, "I believe that God exists, thou I would be lying if I said I dont have doubts & worries." I guess few faith-based beliefs would be worth anything if there wasn't a questioning mind in behind it. I unfortunately have more questions than belief at this point.
DAWN - (1) Thank you for your insightful comments of science versus religion. I, too, believe that science is not a be-all, end-all. There are too many times that science believes strongly that something is so (estrogen is good for the heart!) and then the truth ends up quite differently (estrogen bad!!). I just kind of wish that the religious side of the equation was a bit MORE questioning, the way science is. If science can be proven to be false, it would be nice if there was more doubt by religious people. The Muslim "you'll meet 29 virgins in Heaven when you die" comes to mind....or that, by killing, "Allah is great." I'm surprised that more Muslim extremenists don't just break out laughing when told such things. (2) I loved when you said, "On the other end exists the religions of the world which operate on faith only and it's curious that the central tenet of most of them is that you must not question that faith! I don't have any use for any of them. The Bible or Koran? Just books." You MUST NOT question faith. Wow. To not question definitely rubs against my not-faith-by-the-books nature. The times I believe in a God are oddly when I'm FAR away from people and churches. I look at nature and its intricacies and am dumbfounded. Frank Lloyd Wright always capitalized the "N" in "Nature" because he felt God was there. (2) Dawn, you mention, "There exists on the fringe an area called the paranormal, inhabited by ghosts and other unexplained phenomena, that science can't explain." One of the most horrific movies I've ever seen was "Excorcist." Given our limited knowledge, I don't discount that spirits or even an evil force can exist. Strangely, it seems almost more plausible that evil spirits exist than good ones like God....maybe it's a reflection of my observation of miner families' unanswered prayers. (3) Dawn, you come closest to my feelings when you say, "I do believe in a higher power, but I don't have words to describe it. " We differ when you state, "I do think you can ask for the strength to manage the difficult turns in your life but that is where divine intervention ends." As I've stated, I'd love to ask for strength but, so far, the answer is no louder than the response I get from talking to an inanimate object like a chair. I don't mean it as criticism - I just haven't learned to properly pray for strength. Maybe someday, I will.
VERY KNAWTY - You state you believe "because I want to. Because it made sense to me. Because there's too much weird stuff in my life for it all to have happened by chance." Later, you say, "I also believe that God (or any concept thereof) is a myth. But the funny thing is that this is OK. I believe that "reality" is so far removed from human concepts such as "truth" that it doesn't matter in the slightest." I guess there are days I believe, then don't believe, too. You feel that the "intelligent design" is flawed by the creation of man. Others feel we'll go to eternal hell for our own incompetence to understand why God exists. I wonder why the design doesn't allow some like me to believe fully? I wonder, being I didn't design myself, why I'm to be sent to eternal Hell for my suspicious nature? I know I have free will but why can't God give some of us slow learners some help?
JESSICA - (1) Many of your thoughts echoed my feelings and your insights and humor were very much appreciated...Hitler, in Heaven, apologizing to God, "Oh man, what a messed up thing I did, I am sorry" Funny. I'd often wondered what happened to those who recognize God's existance at the last moment before death. Thanks for answering this lifelong query of mine. (2) Thanks for taking me through the way different religions look at things. You state, "If the Muslims are right, then God is one sexist SOB." Again, very funny. I agree with you that the Universal Karma seems cruel -- not seeking medical help because it's Karma -- not my cup of tea. It's as illogical as the people who say, "God meant him to die." Wow. They're pretty good! They're able to tell us what God wants? Good trick. Reminds me of the historians who write what was going on in the mind of Frank Lloyd Wright when he drew this line or that...the guy's dead and can't dispute it. It'd be nice if you could have a scene like in "Annie Hall" where someone says, "God feels this way." And up would step God and say, "You're totally wrong! I never have felt that way. You're just making this all up!" (3) You bring up an interesting point when you say that Heaven, "No matter the level of bliss... if it is for an eternity.... it will become a cage." Realistically, people are so different. Some like brussel sprouts, some don't. There must be SOMEONE, sometime who, once in Heaven, decides he/she doesn't want to live forever. And how can you have constant bliss without occassional sadness for contrast? Is that possible? You end your post by saying (I think quite eloquently), "What matters is that I try and be a good person, put others wants & needs ahead of my own, try to treat others as I want to be treated, and if that's not enough, then I guess I get to burn." Sure would be nice, since the apparent God/man contract demands "absolute belief," if God would come down and give us a little help with that belief thing. While constant bliss might become boring, that burning thing is incomprehensible to me. Sending good people like my mom and dad to Hell for eternity seems far crueler than anything any mass murderer like Hitler or Stalin has done. Who could think up something so cruel? The test: Do you BELIEVE, based on "faith," with no strong verifyable corroberated proof?...Putting my mom and dad in Hell for the terrible crime of uncertainty of faith would be murder. But that's my belief.
DENNIS - You state that you're not a believer in religion and "The vast majority of religions seem to demand mindless obedience rather than thought and compassion." Sometimes, I wonder if a con man were creating religion, would he create it any differently than now exists? I mean, how do you get people to donate money to a church without offering them any traditional tangible product? You threaten them with something untangible -- eternal Hell. Wow. And, like I said, if scientific writings of the past (flat earth) can be proven false, what proof, other than smoke, mirrors, expensive gold altars, praying and singing is there for God's existence? I'm happy for those who feel that godly spirit - Heck, I'm jealous. And, as you say, Dennis, "more power to them" - but where is God's compassion for the slow learner? On death, believe now....or else!! No wonder the "savages" in old California were scared when Father Serra's priests told them that. I'd be, too.
Thank you all for helping me along with this spiritual journey. Hopefully, things will make more sense in time.
Teri Anne
