Many of the posts here in the "spiritual" section of Susan's deal with specifics on whether a church accepts us, or we, as transgenders, can feel comfortable in a church.  My query is far more basic.  WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I have a few lifelong queries:

(1) It has always been amazing to me that, after major tragedy, some survivors will say "God was with us" or, in the case of non-survival, "God meant him to join angels in heaven."  And yet some VERY devout religious people (9-11 or the recent mine disaster) end up dead.  This  contradiction and irony is often defended by the "self-determination" argument - that we are, ourselves, responsible for what happens to us.  It seems odd that there can be self-determination (we determine our fate) and, at the same time, have god or gods creating things around us (like mine disasters).  If we survive, is it because of us or God?

(2) It's puzzling to me that anyone like a transgender who is an object of discrimination by the church or self-defined "religious" folk would still wish to affiliate or associate with some bigotted people of that organization.  The Catholic church in Rome seems to have so many bigotted views against gays that I wonder why American Catholics don't just separate from Rome...but I digress.  Even if you are fortunate enough to find a small Catholic church that is GLBT-accepting, why would you want part of your church monies to be sent to narrow-minded church elders in Rome? 

(3) But the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION (to me, anyway) that I'd like to be addressed in your posts is this:  Why do YOU believe?  I know many who, at some point, turn to God and find comfort there.  They tell me, "All you need to do is reach out and He'll be there."  I try and try and nothing happens.  I see devout people in churches and I don't understand how they can have FAITH in something so nebullous, so seemingly illogical, so not-scientifically based.  And, I'm not the first to notice that more horror has probably been created in the name of religion than anything else - this by, holier-than-thou "religious" folk (note that I put "religious" in quotes - I feel people who murder and torture are not religious, though they obviously self-define themselves as so).

I have trouble with anything written like the Bible because it was written so long ago in a time where there was not a questioning press.  If the New York Times or L.A. Times had just been writing alongside the Bible-writers there would be a second or third SOURCE, the whole "Jesus is God" thing would be a lot more believable for me.  Whenever a reporter relies on an unreliable source (the "12 MINERS ALIVE" fiasco comes to mind), there is always danger of inaccuracy. And yet, here we are in a very sophisticated scientific society and yet our leaders carry the Bible and it is socially and politically-suicidal to admit any other possibility.  And the threat, by many religions, is that if we don't believe, we'll go to Hell.  Do people truly believe or do they believe as insurance - "Just in case there is a God, I don't want to go to Hell."  How can so many believe so fully and yet that STRONG faith eludes me?

I believe in the POSSIBILITY or even probability that there's SOMETHING OUT THERE - a god or force that started life in the universe.  But talking or praying to something that may or may not EXIST -- well, the logical side of my brain says, "What are you doing?"  As you may have guessed, I'm the suspicious not-by-the book type.  Tradition is something that I have trouble with -- I skipped my college graduation ceremony.  I read, a few months ago (in Time magazine?) that some people's brains are more susceptable to "sprituality" or believing something unprovable.  If God exists, would he punish those of us whose brains aren't the right shape to truly believe?  Poor and rich, intelligent and not so - many or most believe.  There are even some very famous scientists that believe.  Part of me is jealous of something that, despite trying, isn't coming my way.  Because so many believe, the whole religion thing could still prove false.  There have been cases where masses of humanity thought something that proved false (flat earth, earth as center of the universe, etc). 

After I had my GRS, I was unfortunate enough, in television channel-surfing, to come across a minister who called post ops like me "butchers of their own bodies."  That obviously didn't make me more warm and fuzzy about religion, but that's a different discussion.... For now, just tell me, bottom line WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I'd love it if it could be something more than, "I turned to Him in that time of woe and He was there for me."  Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE.

Teri Anne

hello!
I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts and I hope some of my response will give you further things to think about in your spiritual journey.

1) You make a strong point, no matter what happens God is never at fault, the problem comes when people try to make it someone's fault or praise someone for the miraculous survival. The truth is no matter if it be a God a greater force we can not understand the greater picture to which that incident affected. There is a verse in the bible (Christian, that is my point of view just to let you know) Luke 9:1-3 and I feel it addresses this problem (please correct me if I'm not answering your question) where as Christ says he is blind so that the power of Christ can be displayed. On to the second part of the question do we play a role, I would say yes, if I put a gun to my head and pull the trigger if i live its a miracle, but high chances are I'm going to die. My idea is if there is great survival rejoice and praise who ever and if it be a death go ahead and morn but for either of those cases we don't know why the outcome came out that way.

2) This question is slightly harder for me to answer since I'm not catholic, I will say I do belong to the Salvation Army and they have taken a stance against the gay and lesbian community in what they practice. Would I say a church is being wrong by not accepting the GBLT behavior? I do not believe this to be wrong. It does become wrong when love is not being shown. As I perceive from the catholic church the Pope is trying to hold up a standard (one you may not agree with which you are entitled to) An example I can give is  the army has a strong stance against drinking and gambling yet are denomination was founded on helping the alcoholics of society. So just a different view is all I can offer on question 2, hope it helps.

3) Why believe? Good question to which I can not really answer. You mention "And, I'm not the first to notice that more horror has probably been created in the name of religion than anything else." I would agree but also keep in mind the two great genocides where created over one race feeling superior over another (Nazi's and the genocide in Rwanda) Lets also keep in my mind that the great majority of the world has some religious beliefs and has been so since the beginning of time. Because religion is so great and makes for such a grand cause to follow it has been abused so certain people may gain power. Let us keep in my mind no one group of people is perfect they all have short falls and hypocrisy not just those claiming religious beliefs.

4) Are sacred writing relevant? I would say yes. You say if the "New York times" or other groups have writing alongside the bible it could be more believable. Let's take the gospels in the bible (Christian bible) they have four different authors. Not all the authors where around Christ, the book of Luke has been noted to be of a historical style of writing, chances are he did his research on this Christ character because the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings. Such principals found in the bible (love, grace, justice, discipline) are still current today as they where back then. I urge anyone when reading any sacred writing read it in the context of the time it will help a lot. Finally a Greek historian once wrote something along these lines "I document the battle of Thermopylae so that future generations won't make our mistakes, history is practical I believe.

I write this letter to offer a different point of view and with great hopes we be able to help one grow in there life.
From a caring brother: James!

>YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

Too much in my life has happened which cannot be described by mundane means.

That said, it's certainly no proof that anything I think exists actually does.  Mind you, if I truly believed that when life ended it was the end of the line for us... well, I'd be hard pressed to not suicide in short order. So, are my memories and feelings which simply do NOT fit in with the scientific word products of my mind to keep me alive? ^shrug

That said, I've not a clue about religion. It's always struck me as a wolf leading a pack a sheep. Sometimes the wolf is benevolent, sometimes not. But even if you find a good wolf, you're still a sheep and I can't be comfortable with that.

For what little it is worth

Dear Teri Anne,

1. If no God exists then things just happen.  However if there is a God why do bad things happen to good people?  The answer is that God works using God's time not our time.  To a person that believes in God that means that a bad thing can happen to a good person; however, the good person will not be forgotten by God.  "God knows every feather of every sparrow and you are more important to God than all the sparrows." 

2. People are very narrow minded not God.  Jesus told the crowd,"You of no sin can cast the first stone." The lady that committed adultery was not stoned to death because Jesus saved her life.  Jesus told her to go and believe and she would see the kingdom of God. 
As Jesus was dying on the cross he turned to a murderer and forgave the murderer and promised the murderer the kingdom of heaven for having asked Jesus for forgivness.
John the Baptist told Jesus that John the Baptist was not worthy to baptist Jesus.  However it is the Holy Spitit that baptises not a human.  We are all ministers of God but we are only humans.  We are worthy of being ministers but we are not worthy to judge other humans.  Only God will judge humans.  God will accept a gay person, a transexual person, and/or a sinner that truly asks for forgivness.  God will not accept any person that does not believe.  Being saved is the Grace of God and not an act earned by human judgement.  God saves us as a gift.  If you believe you are saved.  If you do not believe you are not saved.  Humans do not accept us if we are not like them.

We are born with an innate ability to know that the universe contains more than just humans.  If fact very few humans believe that the only life in the universe is just the life on Earth.
It even gets more complicated in that brillant scientists have theorized that we have more than three demensions.  It is very possible that another demension is watching us.  This other demension may be where our spirit goes.

3. I believe in God because there is nothing that shows me that God does not exist and there is a lot of evidence that shows he does exist.  History shows that Jesus did exist.  In fact if you study the bible and history you will find that Jesus somehow got out of the tomb after Jusus died.  If you recall the tomb of Jesus was guarded by a squad of Roman soldiers and the stone in front of the tomb would take 10 strong men to move.  In the days of the Romans any soldier that left his post would be put to death.  A Romain soldier would die before leaving his post.  Somehow Jesus got out of the tomb.
Jesus walked along with the living after he was dead.  Jesus made himself seen by many.  Many people recorded seeing Jesus after his death in the scriptures. 
Of cause you might believe that Jesus was faking his death.  After he was crucified on the cross a soldier plunged a spear into his side.  Water came out of the wound. When a person dies water starts accumulating and will pour out of the body when cut. History clearly states Jesus was dead and the recorded facts show he was dead.
History states that Jesus died, was buried and rose again.  That is great news.  It is as revalent to the living today as it was 20000 years ago.

The new testiment of the bible was written over 2000 years ago.  The writers used stories and analogies that were relavant to the people listening and reading the stories.  However the message is still very relavant and every story teaches a great lesson.
...............
I will share a little about me....
I suffered the ridicule of these gender issues starting as a little boy.  I grew up in a tough part of a big city.  My initiation into public school was various bullies  sitting on top on me.  As I grew bigger I grew bigger than the bullies but I always kept a kind heart.  Older men (and women) found ways to attack me mentally since I was physcially too big.  I came to this site looking for better medicines to self-medicate and get my external body equal to my internal body.  This site probably saved my life because I thought the physical pains I felt were from the "transition process".  I found out the pains were from overdosing from various medications and I was killing myself.  I wonder if any people that saved me at this site believe in God?   I wonder if God sent me to this site to save me from myself?  I wonder if God sent me to you?

I think all Christains have doubts.  Abraham was asked by God to kill his only son.  God spared Abraham's son but Abraham had a faith that was stronger than most modern Christains. 
Heaven is a place where you are with God.  Hell is a place which you are not with God.  We all have an inner spirit that is more than the water and handful of chemical that comprise our body.  We were born with an innate knowledge and curiousity to know we are not alone in this universive.  If you believe then by the grace of God you are saved.  You do not have to earn being saved or look like other humans think you should look to be saved.
God loves you for you and opinions by humans remain opinions of humans not the opinion of God.

Teri,

You can choose to believe me or not. It really doesn't matter. What I am about to say some would call blashpemy or heretical but it is the truth. I do not believe god exists, I know he does. I know because he talks to me. I don't mean like a voice in my head or sometihng. He comes to me in my sleep much like he did with the prophets of the old testament. Why? I don't know. It isn't all the time just every now and then. Sometimes we just talk sometimes he shows me things, like how the world will end.

One time I was at a particularly low point in my life. I had no job was broke and could see no end in sight. He came to me that night and we walked along a jetti in Santa Cruz, a palce I knew from when I lived out there. We watched the sail boats sailing in and out of the harbour. He asked what was troubling me even though I knew he knew. We talked about it and he told me not to worry. In a month I would have a new contract. A month later the company I was listed with as a computer consultant called and had a contract for me. A very lucrative one, and I had many contracts which followed. sometimes two at a time.

He has told me before that he does not intervene in the affairs of man without being asked, and that, only rarely. He does not cause things to happen. It kind of blows the whole free will thing. He always answers your prayers. You may not like the answer.

The earth itself is a living thing. The weather, earthquakes, mine disasters etc all happen because it is in the basic design which posseses a random element. It does what it does and there are many elements that can affect it's behavior. If man does things that cause the temperatures to rise then a record season of hurricanes isn't gods fault. If a mine explodes from a gas buildup in a sealed section, god didn't make it happen. Man was the one who dug in there capped it off and then ignored the danger.

He has been in my life from the beggining. There have been times when I have been angry with him. Yelled at him even argued with him. But, he has never deserted me. He is with me whenever I need him I need only call and he will come and we will talk and all will be well.

I'm sure you probably don't believe me. That's okay. That's why I chose the name Cassandra. No one ever believes me. No one believed me when I told them two planes were about to be crashed into the twin towers either. That's the thing. You can choose to believe or you can choose not to believe. For me I know, all doubt has been removed. I have seen many things that are yet to come to pass. When exactly they will happen I can't say. When the time comes I will recognize it. It is a feeling of DeJa Vue.

When 9-11 happened I was sitting at my desk at work. Someone walked up and started carrying on a conversation. I recognized it. I remember thinking how I knew that conversation and finished what the person was saying. He said yeh how did you know? Then it hit me. I turned my radio on to the news and there it was. We found a TV and watched as the second plane hit. It was just as it had been shown to me.

You can doubt me but for me that is not an option. Why I am shown these things I do not know. It seems rather useless to know and yet be unable to do anything about it. Maybe it is so I can tell others so that there faith may be fortified. Assuming whoever I tell believes me. Maybe it is to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of those who like yourself have lost the ability or the faith to believe.

As to man and his religions all I can say is god is not a religion. Religions are a creation of man who has lost the ability to be close to god. Religion more often expands the gulf between man and god. Christ said all you have to do is believe. I have always taken him for his word and that seems to work. I reccomend you read Robert Hienlen's "Stranger in A Strange Land" I think you will find it insightful.

God Bless,

Cassie

Teri, I read your post & my first thought was no, she's got it all wrong.  But on reflection I consider its a very good post because it makes one think, and anything that does that is by nature good. Hey I'll give you my take on things if I may
1. The whole point of us being here is to be tested, our bodies are of no consequence, its our souls that are important - I imagine our existance here as a sort of virtual reality video  game (yeah I know, a bit silly - but its MY take on things   ),and when we finish we look around and see reality -  material things including our mortal bodies were of no consequence only the lessons learn't from participating.  I believe God either dosent care what happens to our mortal selves OR he does, but how can we understand his workings - he is infinite.
I would like to believe we will never be tested beyond our ability to resist (I do have doubts here   )
2. I'm Catholic and it is a tenant of the Church that only two beings know if you have committed a sin - yourself in your deepest heart, and God. NOBODY else does, despite what the circumstances may appear to be so NOBODY should judge you.  Also, Gods forgiveness is infinite, Jesus makes a real point of this.  I don't believe the Catholic Church is bigoted - I have seen no evidence in its teachings and the only problem I noticed between the US Catholic hierarchy & Rome was that they appeared to be slow & reluctant to take action against paedophile priests despite Romes urgings. I guess its that humans are imperfect and that any human works will therefore be imperfect too - that includes all churches.
3. As far as the Bible goes well yes I agree - ie the story of Esau & Jacob always burnt me up - I thought Jacob was a slimy little toad.  Its the New Testament that holds me.  In the Gospels you can see that the apostles are trying (imperfectly but to the best of their ability, to relate a truely wonderful thing - that shines through their writings.
The question of belief - will always be one of faith & it will be an individual thing, nobody can force you to believe, any belief system that does is a perversion. 
I believe that God exists, thou I would be lying if I said I dont have doubts & worries
Walter Raleigh wrote a poem that ends ".....and from the dust, my God will raise me up I trust"  Thats my position, I trust

What follows are my beliefs which are not intended to offend, but may offend a few nevertheless.

I have been angry at "God" most of my life.  I was raised Roman Catholic but when my gender problems became obvious and in my mind, unsolvable, I blamed God and turned away.  I identified most of my life as an athiest and found any belief system or God illogical and stupid.  My background in science led me to analyze all of the major religions in a logical way and I concluded to was no evidence of a divine hand, just the ticking of the cosmic clock.  A lot can happen in five billion years just by chance.

I have come to realize that living by science alone is nearsighted.  Science has never has all the answers and never will and therefore, the idea that if something is not observable it can't exist is equally short-sighted.  Don't get me wrong, I despise people who condemn science as wrong just because it produces some inconvenient questions for their religion.  But think of radio waves.  200 years ago, they did not exist because we could not observe them.  We continue to discover new things that throw old ideas in the fire.  Science is not absolute.

There exists on the fringe an area called the paranormal, inhabited by ghosts and other unexplained phenomena, that science can't explain.  The answer then is that they must not exist.  I understand that in science, things cannot be given credence without an observable set of behaviours defined by certain principles; nevertheless, that doesn't mean they don't exist.  On the other end exists the religions of the world which operate on faith only and it's curious that the central tenet of most of them is that you must not question that faith!  I don't have any use for any of them.  The Bible or Koran?  Just books.

I do believe in a higher power, but I don't have words to describe it.  Part of my transition has been a spiritual journey and opening myself to the possibility of a "God" and I have had a number of things occur that have strengthened that sense.  I do not believe that this God interferes in the day-to-day events of the world; it seems absurd that a God that created the wonders of the universe would be bothered with trivia--actually I think it's typical human arrogance to think God "smites" people or helps them with their physics exam.  I do think you can ask for the strength to manage the difficult turns in your life but that is where divine intervention ends. 

Dawn

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 08, 2006, 09:58:04 PM

(1) It has always been amazing to me that, after major tragedy, some survivors will say "God was with us" or, in the case of non-survival, "God meant him to join angels in heaven."

I believe this is a self-defense mechanism in an attempt to cope with events which people find displeasurable.  In any case, the events were "God's Plan" which allows one to go on with their life, regardless of what God's Plan really is, if such a God even exists.

Quote(3) But the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION (to me, anyway) that I'd like to be addressed in your posts is this:  Why do YOU believe?

Because I want to.  Because it made sense to me.  Because there's too much weird stuff in my life for it all to have happened by chance.  The evidence points to an intelligent, or rather, an un-telligent designer.  That's right, an UN-telligent designer, because I refuse to believe that an intelligent designer would create human beings, after having created the rest of the world so perfectly.  But I believe that there is some driving force behind life, the universe, and everything.  Even if the driving force is forty-two.

I've also experienced things which aren't easily explained by science, like precognitive dreams and dream guides.  If dreams were really just a random firing of neurons, then theoretically the chance of having a precognitive dream is so low that you would win the lottery ten times before you had one.  I think it's safe to assume that there is more here than meets the third eye.

If I were to try to describe my religion, the closest thing would be Pantheism, combined with Taoism.

I also believe that God (or any concept thereof) is a myth.  But the funny thing is that this is OK.  I believe that "reality" is so far removed from human concepts such as "truth" that it doesn't matter in the slightest.  In fact, it's the other way around.  Reality is not entirely separate from consciousness.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

I'm quickly getting to the point where I no longer care whether there is a God or not.
It's like this:

If the Christians are right, then God, according to the bible, is cruel and unjust by nothing more than the facts in the Bible (there may possibly be more truth out there than what is presented in Christianity or the Bible)

Same with the Jews.

If the Muslims are right, then God is one sexist SOB, and doesn't care one whit about human life.

If the Buddhists are right, then it doesn't matter what I do, I'll be stuck in this repetitive hell until I figure out some big plan.

If the Hindu's are right, then all I have to do is take a bath in some muddy water somewhere in India and everything is cool, which doesn't make much sense to me.

All of them are faith based.
Some of them are based on a Universal Karma set (Eastern / Asiatic)
Some of them are based on a forgiveness set. (Judeo-Christian / Muslim)

Both of these ideologies have very series flaws with them

In the Universal Karma set of religions:
There is no right and wrong, and you should not stop wrong action when you see it because it is nothing more than Karma being played out.  This is a morally relativistic attitude which to me, personally, sounds wrong.  I do not think a diety that cared about us as people wants us to sit and watch as others are murdered, raped, plundered, and pillaged against by the more evil members of our race.

In the Forgiveness Based Religions:
You could end up with Hitler in heaven because he says, "Oh man, what a messed up thing I did, I am sorry"
You have no cycles of rebirth which to me doesn't make any sense.
It's a one shot in life and then boom, perfect bliss for all of eternity.
No matter the level of bliss... if it is for an eternity.... it will become a cage.

Both paradigms have serious problems
Both paradigms undermine the 'All Knowing, Caring, Loving creator"

I think they are all wrong, I don't know how wrong, and I don't know which is more right than the others, and I am fast approaching the point where it really no longer matters.

That pretty much sums up my theories.
I don't know; I don't care; It Doesn't Matter.

What matters is that I try and be a good person, put others wants & needs ahead of my own, try to treat others as I want to be treated, and if that's not enough, then I guess I get to burn.

I'm with you, Jessica. To use a buddhist concept, you make your own karma. In Christian terminology, it's treat others as you would be treated.

I flat don't believe in religion and, having grown up in an atheist family, have no belief in a god either. I do believe that it's important to do well and be a good person to others and to yourself. If people find it easier to do that by believing in a god, then more power to them.

The vast majority of religions seem to demand mindless obedience rather than thought and compassion, however.

Dennis

Thank you all for this interesting "thread."  I apologize in advance for my lengthy answer but you took your time to help me and I want to respond to each of you as honestly as I can.  People say "don't talk about religion" because it carries some risk -- hopefully, nothing will offend as I try to work things out in my mind.  Because "belief" or "faith" in religion (something scientifically unprovable so far) is an individual and subjective choice, I guess I knew I knew that it would be a literal miracle if I read a post here and something clicked and - bingo - I got religion.  But I hoped and, perhaps in time, something will click.  In the meantime...

JAMES - (1) A "spiritual journey"....yes, that's a good way to put it.  I guess I seem to be stuck on the spiritual highway onramp while others are cruising along, happy as clams.  They say "spiritual" people live longer - I'd like that but somehow haven't found the method to hang my problems and hopes on a god.  It would be comforting but there's a part of me that wonders if an inanimate object like a chair would hold my problems just as efficiently. (3) You say you can't answer why you believe.  Thanks for that honesty.  And, you're right.  Hitler did cause much grief. (4) You mention that, in the bible, "the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings."  While this is true, it's like "preaching to the choir" - the choir isn't going to disagree.  A written history by impartial people who don't believe would be more conclusive proof. Two other things -- the writing -- how many people, as the bible was being written, could read?  Also, the early printing presses would make mass dissimination to a variety of masses of different beliefs difficult.  Much of what gets passed on, I have a feeling, gets passed on by literate monks, one person to another.  What got saved was the bible.  What didn't get saved are writings that might disagree.  We'll perhaps never know.  I agree with you and others that the bible has many useful morality stories.  Thank you James for providing fruit for thought.

KIMBERLY - Yes, there is a certain "wolf leading the pack of sheep" attitude with religion and I understand your discomfort.  What's even more disconcerting is that some religious leaders have been arrested for sodomizing those sheep.  And even that - the pedaphile business - doesn't cause the Catholic church to re-examine itself as to whether priests should be allowed to marry.  As Dennis says, later on, the church seems to demand "mindless obedience."  I sometimes think of how the father in "Fidler On The Roof" was able to change and allow his daughter to marry despite "traditions."  Having non-questioning elders under the Pope is like having "yes men" on the board at Enron...sooner or later, something terrible may happen and you'll probably blame the wrong thing.

WENDY - (2) You state, "God will not accept any person that does not believe.  Being saved is the Grace of God and not an act earned by human judgement.  God saves us as a gift.  If you believe you are saved.  If you do not believe you are not saved.  Humans do not accept us if we are not like them."  If I believe, I will be saved.  Yes, I got that part.  The part about WHY I should believe something I can't prove - that's the hard part.  And there's no sense in God threatening me with Hell if I don't believe.  That's a bad argument, in my opinion.  Would anyone buy snake oil from a salesman if they said you'd go to Hell if you didn't buy it?  No, your logic would take over and say that this person is suspect.   I agree with you that the universe could be three dimensions or who knows what.  There is much unseeable and thus, so far, unprovable. (3) I agree that a person named Jesus existed in real life.  It's just the magical/spiritual stuff I have a problem believing.  I'm sorry that GLBT churches are usually Christian - I don't have FAITH that he was the son of god any more than there's a "holy ghost."  I'm not saying Jesus isn't the son of god.  I just want more proof than society just telling me, "believe."  It's hard to get there if you're suspicious and analytical.

CASSIE - I'm happy for you that God has been in your life from the beginning.  I grew up in an Episcopelian house and two of my four brothers are VERY religious.  My parents were not religious at all.  How two out of four ended up very religious is a mystery to me.  It's not that  I haven't tried.  I'm sure that if I'd have some of the visions that you say you have, it'd all be much clearer for me.  I'm not working now and it'd be very handy to know where my life may be going.  You say, "He always answers your prayers. You may not like the answer."  Heck, I'd settle for hearing any answer.  There is just silence.  You state that "You may not believe me."  It's not that at all -- I believe you believe.  Truly, I do.  I wonder how much of your premonitions are just that -- premonitions.  Whether you attribute them to faith or not, I believe that you do experience them.  Again, you're lucky.  The only time I ever had a premonition was selling all my stocks right before a huge stock market downward crash.  That, and not going down an empty excalator in San Francisco...a thug passed me because I turned away at the last second.  I followed a group down the escalator and, at the bottom, found him across the room, loitering.  His eyes met mine and I knew his aims were mean and vicious.  Maybe God clued me in, saved me.  I'll never know.  Cassie, you theorize that maybe your gift of premonitions may cause people like me to reconsider having faith.  Maybe.  There's a lot of unexplainable stuff in life. 

RANA - (1) Yes, I've heard the argument that the world's ills are God's test of us.  The philosopher Bertrand Russell said that "one can't sit at a dying child's bedside and believe that God exists."  My religious brother feels that "suffering exists because we are separated from Him" and that "love is not genuine until it is tested."  I understand that good qualities such as self-sacrifice, courage and fortitude could not be tested without angst.  I have to wonder, though, why such self-sacrificing, courageous and RELIGIOUS people such as the miners would die.  Either the world's ill's are God's test or they're random sad occurences that, due to free will, are not God's test. (2) You state, "I don't believe the Catholic church is bigotted."  I'm no expert but I thought the current Pope came out recently with an edict against the "gay lifestyle."  I've heard some priests offer that they'd love for gays to join their church.  For awhile I feel good, until they add, "so we can help them to change."  (3) Thank you for offering, "I believe that God exists, thou I would be lying if I said I dont have doubts & worries."  I guess few faith-based beliefs would be worth anything if there wasn't a questioning mind in behind it.  I unfortunately have more questions than belief at this point.

DAWN - (1) Thank you for your insightful comments of science versus religion.  I, too, believe that science is not a be-all, end-all.  There are too many times that science believes strongly that something is so (estrogen is good for the heart!) and then the truth ends up quite differently (estrogen bad!!).  I just kind of wish that the religious side of the equation was a bit MORE questioning, the way science is.  If science can be proven to be false, it would be nice if there was more doubt by religious people.  The Muslim "you'll meet 29 virgins in Heaven when you die" comes to mind....or that, by killing, "Allah is great."  I'm surprised that more Muslim extremenists don't just break out laughing when told such things. (2) I loved when you said, "On the other end exists the religions of the world which operate on faith only and it's curious that the central tenet of most of them is that you must not question that faith!  I don't have any use for any of them.  The Bible or Koran?  Just books."  You MUST NOT question faith.  Wow.  To not question definitely rubs against my not-faith-by-the-books nature.  The times I believe in a God are oddly when I'm FAR away from people and churches.  I look at nature and its intricacies and am dumbfounded.  Frank Lloyd Wright always capitalized the "N" in "Nature" because he felt God was there.  (2) Dawn, you mention, "There exists on the fringe an area called the paranormal, inhabited by ghosts and other unexplained phenomena, that science can't explain."  One of the most horrific movies I've ever seen was "Excorcist."  Given our limited knowledge, I don't discount that spirits or even an evil force can exist.  Strangely, it seems almost more plausible that evil spirits exist than good ones like God....maybe it's a reflection of my observation of miner families' unanswered prayers. (3) Dawn, you come closest to my feelings when you say, "I do believe in a higher power, but I don't have words to describe it. "  We differ when you state, "I do think you can ask for the strength to manage the difficult turns in your life but that is where divine intervention ends."  As I've stated, I'd love to ask for strength but, so far, the answer is no louder than the response I get from talking to an inanimate object like a chair.  I don't mean it as criticism - I just haven't learned to properly pray for strength.  Maybe someday, I will.

VERY KNAWTY - You state you believe "because I want to.  Because it made sense to me.  Because there's too much weird stuff in my life for it all to have happened by chance."  Later, you say, "I also believe that God (or any concept thereof) is a myth.  But the funny thing is that this is OK.  I believe that "reality" is so far removed from human concepts such as "truth" that it doesn't matter in the slightest."  I guess there are days I believe, then don't believe, too.  You feel that the "intelligent design" is flawed by the creation of man.  Others feel we'll go to eternal hell for our own incompetence to understand why God exists.  I wonder why the design doesn't allow some like me to believe fully?  I wonder, being I didn't design myself, why I'm to be sent to eternal Hell for my suspicious nature?  I know I have free will but why can't God give some of us slow learners some help?

JESSICA - (1) Many of your thoughts echoed my feelings and your insights and humor were very much appreciated...Hitler, in Heaven, apologizing to God, "Oh man, what a messed up thing I did, I am sorry"  Funny.  I'd often wondered what happened to those who recognize God's existance at the last moment before death.  Thanks for answering this lifelong query of mine.  (2) Thanks for taking me through the way different religions look at things.  You state, "If the Muslims are right, then God is one sexist SOB."  Again, very funny.  I agree with you that the Universal Karma seems cruel -- not seeking medical help because it's Karma -- not my cup of tea.  It's as illogical as the people who say, "God meant him to die."  Wow.  They're pretty good!  They're able to tell us what God wants?  Good trick.  Reminds me of the historians who write what was going on in the mind of Frank Lloyd Wright when he drew this line or that...the guy's dead and can't dispute it.  It'd be nice if you could have a scene like in "Annie Hall" where someone says, "God feels this way."  And up would step God and say, "You're totally wrong!  I never have felt that way.  You're just making this all up!" (3) You bring up an interesting point when you say that Heaven, "No matter the level of bliss... if it is for an eternity.... it will become a cage."  Realistically, people are so different.  Some like brussel sprouts, some don't.  There must be SOMEONE, sometime who, once in Heaven, decides he/she doesn't want to live forever.  And how can you have constant bliss without occassional sadness for contrast?  Is that possible?  You end your post by saying (I think quite eloquently), "What matters is that I try and be a good person, put others wants & needs ahead of my own, try to treat others as I want to be treated, and if that's not enough, then I guess I get to burn."  Sure would be nice, since the apparent God/man contract demands "absolute belief," if God would come down and give us a little help with that belief thing.  While constant bliss might become boring, that burning thing is incomprehensible to me.  Sending good people like my mom and dad to Hell for eternity seems far crueler than anything any mass murderer like Hitler or Stalin has done.  Who could think up something so cruel?  The test:  Do you BELIEVE, based on "faith," with no strong verifyable corroberated proof?...Putting my mom and dad in Hell for the terrible crime of uncertainty of faith would be murder.  But that's my belief.

DENNIS - You state that you're not a believer in religion and "The vast majority of religions seem to demand mindless obedience rather than thought and compassion."  Sometimes, I wonder if a con man were creating religion, would he create it any differently than now exists?  I mean, how do you get people to donate money to a church without offering them any traditional tangible product?  You threaten them with something untangible -- eternal Hell.  Wow.  And, like I said, if scientific writings of the past (flat earth) can be proven false, what proof, other than smoke, mirrors, expensive gold altars, praying and singing is there for God's existence?  I'm happy for those who feel that godly spirit - Heck, I'm jealous.  And, as you say, Dennis, "more power to them" - but where is God's compassion for the slow learner?  On death, believe now....or else!!  No wonder the "savages" in old California were scared when Father Serra's priests told them that.  I'd be, too.

Thank you all for helping me along with this spiritual journey.  Hopefully, things will make more sense in time.

Teri Anne

I have no problem believing that there is a higher power of some sort.  I also have no problem with using the name god for that higher power.  Its not "god" that worries me its "gods" followers!

All I know is that at the instant I pass on, somewhere in this world a little baby named Leigh will be born and she will not have to deal with the crap I did.

Leigh -
I know what you mean.  It seems that the very people who are taught in their commandments to not cast the first stone, to not judge, and treat others as you would like them to treat you are the very people who do judge and cast stones.  In Muslim countries, they don't just cast stones -- they literally kill women by stoning them to death for the horrific crime of talking to a non-Muslim man privately.  It takes a few hours for the kill.  I guess it's no different than the priests, in the old days, torturing "heretics" with pliers and the rack.  It would be nice if, at the front of Catholic churches and mosques, there were permanent signs saying that they were wrong and they are sorry.  And maybe the Pope could do more than apologize - He could say that priests who participated in those acts did not, in his opinion, deserve to go to Heaven.  If nothing else, it might make other religious people more wary of judging others.

I sometimes ponder how fate of where were born determines our happiness.  In some countries, men can be affectionate to one another,  Some countries even value women are plumper than our "value" system.  The American Indian culture accepted men who identified as both men/women.  It treasured them because they were considered valuable -- they could see both male and female sides of issues.  Alas, we're born here and now so, as you say, we can take happiness in the fact, if we're reborn, that we will not be different from others.  "Less crap," as you say, would be good.

hello agian.

First i want to say it has been a great pleasure being able to read your thoughts on Gods reality. It has been very interesting in the varying beliefs and lifestyles the beliefs lead to.

"Sure would be nice, since the apparent God/man contract demands "absolute belief," if God would come down and give us a little help with that belief thing" I just want to share a story about this comment that happened to me today.

I was in class "Christian Growth and Community" and our prof asked us what the gospal was and its meaning? The funny thing being all Christians in the class we all hesistated on answering question as we were trying to figure out if our answer was right in our minds. (I know I was) The gospal meaning the Good News I found it funny that our class was not confident in what they thought to be the Good News of the Christian faith. After some disscussion on its meanig ranging from freedom, to salvation our prof gave us the idea that the good news is Christ came to earth, not to take away our problems or do everything for us, but came to earth to "make the blind to see"(please parden the pun) to give freedom to those who are trapped.  You say it would be nice if God(s)/Godesses/higher power would help us out on earth I would suggest he did. Agian thats my belief.

Teri Anne i would like to let you into a little secreat amongst the Christian Church, We question God alot, well in my circle we do. I believe it is very healthy to question and futher more I believe God wants you to, Keep searching for answer as you are and i'm postive you will find answers.

P.S. I believe you are a much faster learning then most for you have learned to ask questions, a great virtue. keep it up.
From a caring brother James

QuoteAnd maybe the Pope could do more than apologize - He could say that priests who participated in those acts did not, in his opinion, deserve to go to Heaven. If nothing else, it might make other religious people more wary of judging others.

If the catholic church (it leaders) will not admit guilt in thier handling of the pedophlie priests what chance is there of this outcome?

QuoteThe American Indian culture accepted men who identified as both men/women. It treasured them because they were considered valuable -- they could see both male and female sides of issues. 

Terri and I are of native American ancestory.

Leigh

As a faintly off-topic aside, American Indians (or First Nations as they're called in Canada) are made up of many nations. Some did accept berdaches (two-spirited people), and others didn't and were as harsh as current mainstream North American culture is.

Dennis

QuoteI guess there are days I believe, then don't believe, too.

You misunderstand me, Teri.  I'm not saying that sometimes I believe in a higher power, and sometimes I don't.  Rather, I am saying that I believe in a higher power, but I believe that the higher power is merely a human concept.  In other words, the PHYSICAL existence of such a higher power becomes irrelevant, because to ME a higher power exists.

Or, to quote my favorite website, "Reality is a plastic ink-blot sort of thing that can be bent and twisted depending on your beliefs."

It would probably make more sense if you read this, particularly this part.

Quote from: Jessica on January 09, 2006, 12:42:24 PM
That pretty much sums up my theories.
I don't know; I don't care; It Doesn't Matter.

It sounds like you are an Apatheist.

QUOTE
An Apatheist, by definition, believes there might not be a God. However, he also believes there might be. The Apatheist really just doesn't care which. If there isn't a God, then there's no afterlife and all our Earthly accomplishments are meaningless. If there is a God, and we were doing sh*t he just didn't like, plus he had the ability to do whatever he please, he'd probably would come down from the sky and tell us to ->-bleeped-<-ing stop that. Seriously.  Since that has not happened, there's no real reason to believe that the human race, as a whole, is an affront to God. So until that happens, we should all just hang back and relax, and if we start pissing off God, we're pretty sure he'll come let us know about it. And if he doesn't exist, ->-bleeped-<- it, no one to offend. No big deal, right? Eh, whatever.

No, that really doesn't accurately describe my views, and if my post came across that way, I misscommunicated my spiritual beliefs horribly.

I believe the following:
1. I try and be a good person
2. I try and put others' wants and needs ahead of my own
3. I try and treat other people like I want to be treated.

Do I always succeed? No, and when I don't, I try and improve.

These beliefs don't depend on a God.

If there is a God, and he is not happy with how I have done, then some unknown thing will happen (come back as a dung beetle, roast in hell, etc...)

If there isn't, then people will still say that I was a good person, and that is always nice, whether or not I am around for it.

So the issue of 'Is There A God' has no bearing on my actions and overall, is really unimportant to me.

All I can do is try and be a good person as I perceive 'good'

Terri Anne,

For me, Cassie said it best.  I do not believe in God.  Rather, I know God is!

Organized religions are ways to share our stories of our experience with the Almighty.  Unfortunately, humans have a terrible tendancy to "transmogify" what the Almighty has said to suit personal thoughts and ideas.  What I have found is that the rituals in organized religion can help me pray.  Is it the ritual itself, no.  I would say its more like repeating a mantra and allowing the mind to go beyond the Here & Now. 

Is organized religion necessary to know God?  I would have to say yes, and this is why.  Humanity is a "story species."  That is, we share our experiences through stories.  Organized religions allow people to come together to share stories within an agreed-upon framework.  Keep in mind, that I am not specifying WHICH organized religion is Best or Right - that is a personal choice.  (added 1/11/06 - You don't need to have a massive infrastructure, like in the Roman Catholic church, to be organized.  If you have a group of people who share their experiences of the Almighty and do so in a common framework, I would call that an organized religion.)

Why do I know God is?  Because of my own personal experiences.  A double rainbow aching completly across the sky to brighten a terrible day.  Keeping my car from spinning off a bridge coated with ice.  Suddenly being "told" which way was home when "scud running" the weather.  Or keeping a sick engine running just long enough to get my wheels back on the runway.  And there are other expereinces that are very personal that I don't share often.

I am a scientist and a science teacher.  I find that i do not need to invoke miracles in my profession.  The universe is very orderly and logical.

nevertheless, I belive the following quote sums it up best - for me: 

All I have seen teaches me to trust in the Creator I have not seen.
- Albert Einstein (I believe)

Chaunte

hello!
I really enjoyed your explanation of organized relgions. It Gave me some stuff to think about. Thanks.
From a caring brother: James