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For once and for all: Is Progesterone worth it?

Started by Femme_et_al, January 17, 2016, 01:58:45 AM

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Femme_et_al

So I'm kinda new to these boards, and so I know there are smart measures against self-medding people which is dangerous etc...but please tell me, is taking progesterone worth it?

My doctor told me that I'll have bigger mood swings and gain weight...I've heard that it does make breasts swell but doesn't help with overall growth and I've also heard that it's like one hundred percent necessary...

So, my question, as a trans woman who in 2 months will have her 14 month HRT doctors appointment, should I request progesterone as part of my regiment? Why and why not?

Thanks for your answers in advance!
  •  

Ms Grace

All I can say is that I'm progesterone, it hasn't given me mood swings and I haven't gained a great deal of weight. My breasts haven't swelled but they have certainly rounded out.

Like everyone, it is different - some will say it has been great, others the opposite and the rest are somewhere in between.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

Laura_7

It should be bioidentical progesterone. Non bio identical does not have the same effect on receptors.

Its supposed to help with breast development, might even out some side effects of estrogen and has some anti androgen effects.
Many people say it helped with form, changing from a conical to a more rounder one. It also stimulates growth of epithelial tissue and lobule-alveolar systems in the breasts . Its present in cis women during their growing up, so many say its part of the process of developing tissue.

Some people use a cycle, of 20, 14 or 10 days. Some people say they feel bloated otherwise.
Some take it continuous.


hugs
  •  

Cindy

This is a hard one. The largest clinical survey said no, but many transwomen say yes.

Dissecting this brings in non clinical interpretation. I am not aware of any double blind study, and I doubt any would be ethically approved. So you are left to opinion.

One opinion is worth exactly the same as another.

I'll turn the discussion around, many people say increase in Vit D decreases the chance of cold and such viral infections. This opinion was shared by Pauling an awesome scientist and double Nobel Prize winner. There is no scientific proof. Try arguing that with Pauling!

You will find the same response to P, the girls who say they have had good responses will say yes. Others will say no. The truth? Is probably buried in secondary factors that have not been examined and are incredibly hard to do so.

If your endo suggests P try it, if it has an effect OK, if you can prove an effect publish it! If there is no effect leave it.

Now get ready for 'it worked wonders for me' posts!
  •  

Deborah

I'm on progesterone too, continuously without cycling.  It actually stabilized my mood and I've lost a fair amount of weight.  I'm not sure if it helped development any because I have been on it since the start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Serenation

I took it for many years, only stopped after srs. Though I don't know what I would have been like without it, so I have no idea if it did anything. I weigh more than I used to but I started taking chocolate at the same time as progesterone.
I will touch a 100 flowers and not pick one.
  •  

April_TO

Hi,

I recently posted my reviews ever since taking micronized progesterone (Prometrium)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,200144.0.html

I had many good things to say about it so I hope that helps.
Nothing ventured nothing gained
  •  

Steph34

Some people suggest progesterone for softer skin and hair, rounding/swelling/structural development of breast tissue, and calming. :)

However, it can also have anti-estrogenic properties, masculinize the face, increase abdominal fat, cause depression, and significant weight gain in people who are unable to control their appetite. :-\

Estradiol increases intestinal yeast growth, which can cause problems for some women. Limited evidence suggests progesterone might offset that side effect of E.

When I tried it, it caused rapid but temporary breast swelling and had all of the other effects I listed. The weight gain was a deal-breaker for me. Still, it saddens me to think that the reason my girls are not developing properly is that I lack an essential female hormone. :(

Some hate it; others love it. The only way to know is to try it for a week or so; that should be long enough to know which side you will fall on.
Accepted i was transgender December 2008
Started HRT Summer 2014
Name Change Winter 2017
Never underestimate the power of estradiol or the people who have it.
  •  

April_TO

Prometrium is not androgenic (ie. masculinization) and I can attest that I have feminized more with progesterone cycling.

However, I must caution anyone who is just starting HRT to wait at least a year before you get on with progesterone.Yes, it is anti-estrogenic but with the standard dose of progesterone you should be fine. My estradiol serum levels are still through the roof and my testosterone is still within female range.

Stick with micronized bio-identical progesterone. Medroxyprogesterone acetate is bad news - stay away from it.

Quote from: Steph34 on January 17, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
Some people suggest progesterone for softer skin and hair, rounding/swelling/structural development of breast tissue, and calming. :)

However, it can also have anti-estrogenic properties, masculinize the face, increase abdominal fat, cause depression, and significant weight gain in people who are unable to control their appetite. :-\

Estradiol increases intestinal yeast growth, which can cause problems for some women. Limited evidence suggests progesterone might offset that side effect of E.

When I tried it, it caused rapid but temporary breast swelling and had all of the other effects I listed. The weight gain was a deal-breaker for me. Still, it saddens me to think that the reason my girls are not developing properly is that I lack an essential female hormone. :(

Some hate it; others love it. The only way to know is to try it for a week or so; that should be long enough to know which side you will fall on.
Nothing ventured nothing gained
  •  

iKate

Bio identical like prometrium is good. I wouldn't touch synthetic progestins like medroxyprogesterone acetate.

It has been so far so good for me. Helped with breast growth and rounding.
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Cindy on January 17, 2016, 04:27:40 AM
The largest clinical survey said no

Which largest clinical survey? Can you be more precise and provide link?

Quote from: Serenation on January 17, 2016, 07:13:03 AM
I took it for many years, only stopped after srs. Though I don't know what I would have been like without it, so I have no idea if it did anything. I weigh more than I used to but I started taking chocolate at the same time as progesterone.

You never took progesterone. You took a progestin with similar but also different effects on the body, some adverse/negative. Doctors often lump all progestogens together, not accounting for differences. :(

Quote from: April_TO on January 17, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
Prometrium is not androgenic (ie. masculinization) and I can attest that I have feminized more with progesterone cycling.

QuoteMy estradiol serum levels are still through the roof and my testosterone is still within female range.

My experience has been similar. I take a high dose of progesterone, higher than most and yet my E levels remain high, my T levels at 8 ng/dl (VERY low). I now have less body hair and it much more sparse and thin. No masculinization to speak of. :)

After some experimentation, I concluded that I felt better with P rather than without or less P. Breasts are also fuller and more sensitive on P.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Tessa James

"For once and for all" does not allow for new information and I submit that is what we need.  Larger controlled studies on transgender women.  "Worth it" suggests you know there is more risk.  What we do have are almost entirely subjective reports or anecdotal experience.  The studies/survey, as Cindy pointed out, do not suggest any appreciable improvement in what we want but do indicate increased cardiovascular risk, depression and more.  My physician team and I remain skeptical but want more study on us for us.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
  •  

KayXo

#12
I get the feeling that those studies/surveys you speak of included another form of progestogen as bio-identical progesterone does not increase cardiovascular risk and actually exerts an ANTI-DEPRESSIVE effect due to allopregnanolone.

There are several studies that I can share that show that progesterone helps with breast maturation and growth while cardiovascular complications aren't observed.

Here are just a few:

* J Womens Health Gend Based Med. 2000 May;9(4):381-7

"When compared with the MPA-containing
regimen, women using micronized progesterone-containing HRT
experienced significant improvement in vasomotor symptoms, somatic
complaints, and anxiety and depressive symptoms."

* Menopause. 2002 Jul-Aug;9(4):253-63.

"In contrast with the widely held belief among psychiatrists that progesterone depresses mood, neither of the progestogens we used in normal, nondepressed and nonanxious women showed this effect. Absence of an effect on mood was also found when the results of the two progestogens were combined. The lesser side effects of the micronized progesterone-containing regimen suggest that some women may prefer it to an MPA-containing regimen."

*  Trends in Endocrinology & Metabolism
Volume 11, Issue 2, 1 March 2000, Pages 69–71

"Curiously, addition of the synthetic progestin, medroxyprogesterone, blocked the modulating effects of oestrogen on serotonin activity, while natural progesterone did not."

* Steroids. 2004 Mar;69(3):145-59.

"(...) The importance of the sex steroid hormones 17beta-estradiol
and progesterone for normal development of the mammary gland was
recognized several decades ago and has been unequivocally confirmed
since."

* Am J Surg Pathol. 2000 Jan;24(1):74-80.

"(...) Hence, combined progestative antiandrogens and estrogens are
necessary for genetically male breast tissue to mimic the natural
histology of the female breast."

"Our findings in patient F indicate that prolonged and
regular intake of proper doses of progestins and estrogens
is needed for the full development and maintenance
of the female histology."

"(...)progestative drugs are known to stimulate
the formation of acini and lobules in females.7 "

* Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:69-78

"Once a pregnancy occurs, progesterone
is necessary for the full differentiation of breast tissue that
occurs in preparation for lactation. In the mammary gland,
progesterone acts synergistically with estrogen to transform
the terminal end buds into differentiated lobules necessary for
milk secretion 4."

*  Volume 18a of Elsevier's New Comprehensive
Biochemistry, Titled 'Hormones and Their Actions, Part I'

"Progesterone also acts synergistically with estrogen in the normal
development of the breast. Estrogen stimulates cell mitosis and growth
of the ductal system, while lobular development and differentiation is
dependent on progesterone. When estrogen is administered in the absence
of progesterone, the tubular system proliferates and the ducts dilate
resulting in the formation of cysts and fibroses. These changes are
comparable to those observed in fibrocystic disease and are suppressed
by progestins, so that normal breast development requires that estrogen
and progesterone be administered together.[2-4]"

* Experimental and Clinical Psychopharmacology
2007, Vol. 15, No. 5, 427–444

"Progesterone has been shown to be safe and effective for many clinical applications. The therapeutic effects of progesterone and its neuroactive metabolites reflect interactions with serotonin, dopamine, Nmethyl- D-aspartate, beta-endorphin, and sigma receptors (Pluchino et al., 2006; Schumacher et al., 2007)."

* Contraception. 1987 Oct;36(4):373-402.

"No side effects have been reported as far as lipids profile, coagulation factors and blood pressure are concerned. Therefore oral micronized progesterone appears suitable for hormonal replacement therapy in various areas, essentially postmenopause therapy, premenstrual syndrome, correction of irregular cycles and pregnancy maintenance."

* Climacteric. 2012 Apr;15 Suppl 1:11-7.

"Micronized progesterone has also been shown not to increase the risk of venous thromboembolism and further reduced the incidence of new-onset diabetes when combined with transdermal estrogen. Micronized progesterone has a neutral effect on the vasculature, including a neutral or beneficial effect on blood pressure"

* Menopause. 2010 Nov-Dec;17(6):1122-7.

"there was no significant change in APC sensitivity among women who used transdermal estrogens combined with micronized progesterone compared with nonusers."

* Menopause. 2014 Jan 6.

"Results of this small, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study showed that the use of orally administered natural progesterone caused a significant reduction in BP in individuals with mild to moderate HTN who were not using any other antihypertensive medications"

* Lipids Health Dis. 2012 Oct 9;11:133.

"The effects of intranasal and percutaneous estradiol were similar, regardless of the addition of progesterone. Similarly, for the overall group of 86 women, micronized progesterone did not alter the response to E2. Blood pressure, glucose, insulin, HDL-c, triglycerides, and usCRP remained constant with or without micronized progesterone. Total cholesterol decreased after E2, and progesterone maintained this reduction. LDL-c levels were similar at baseline and with E2, and lower during E2+P in relation to baseline."

"Cyclic, short term exposure to vaginal micronized progesterone did not alter the metabolic and cardiovascular effects of non-oral E2 in early, apparently healthy, postmenopausal women."

* Hum Reprod. 1999 Mar;14(3):606-10.

"Natural progesterone is devoid of any androgenic activity that might compromise lipoprotein metabolism or induce teratogenicity. Moreover, it probably has a direct beneficial effect on blood vessels."

* J Hypertens. 2003 Jun;21(6):1145-9.

"We conclude that progesterone given without oestrogen does not adversely affect vascular function in postmenopausal women."

* PLoS One. 2014 Jan 21;9(1)

"Results indicate that progesterone has short-term cardiovascular safety. Endothelial function, weight, blood pressure, waist circumference, inflammation and coagulation were unchanged as were lipids except for HDL-C. The statistically significant decrease in HDL-C levels was not clinically important (based on lack of Cardiovascular Risk Profile change)."

* CLINICAL THERAPEUTIC VOL. 21, NO. 1, 1999

"the most commonly used synthetic progestins, norethisterone and medroxyprogesterone acetate, have been associated with metabolic and vascular side effects (eg, suppression of the vasodilating effect of estrogens) in both experimental and human controlled studies.All comparative studies to date conclude that the side effects of synthetic progestins can be minimized or eliminated through the use of natural progesterone, which is identical to the steroid produced by the corpus luteum."

"Several studies, including the 3-year prospective PEP1 study, 4, 28 have shown that oral micronized progesterone significantly improves metabolic tolerance compared with such progestins as MPA.52,54,58"

* Med Hypotheses. 2001 Feb;56(2):213-6.

"Oral replacement therapy featuring micronized
progesterone, if administered throughout postmenopausal life, can be
expected to have a highly positive impact on vascular health"

* Climacteric. 2003 Dec;6(4):293-301.

"In both peripheral and cerebral vasculature,
synthetic progestins caused endothelial disruption, accumulation of
monocytes in the vessel wall, platelet activation and clot
formation, which are early events in atherosclerosis, inflammation
and thrombosis. Natural progesterone or estrogens did not show such
toxicity."

* Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:44-53.

"Natural, 'body-identical' progesterone, devoid of any androgenic as well as glucocorticoid activities but being slightly hypotensive due to its antimineralocorticoid activity, appears to be the optimal progestogen in terms of cardiovascular effects, blood pressure, VTE, probably stroke and even breast cancer."

* Experimental and Clinical Psychopharmacology 2007, Vol. 15, No. 5, 427–444

"It is important to note that although progesterone and synthetic progestins are used for similar purposes, these may not exert similar modulatory effects on target organs, and each progestin molecule may have specific effects on neuroendocrine action (Bernardi et al., 2006). For example, a commonly used progestin, MPA, was shown to induce more negative somatic effects, more reports of breast tenderness, and increased magnitude and duration of vaginal bleeding in comparison with natural (micronized, oil-suspended) progesterone in early menopausal women (Cummings & Brizendine, 2002). MPA and natural progesterone also were found to differ with respect to molecular signaling in human endothelial cells, suggesting that there may be differential cardiovascular effects (Simoncini et al., 2004)."

* Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:69-78.

"Estradiol has been shown to trigger the expression of the
endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) gene and increase the
release of nitric oxide, causing relaxation of the vascular
smooth muscle cells. "

"Progesterone or drospirenone did not interfere with the induction or activation
of eNOS by estradiol, while MPA did."

* Biol Psychol. 2005 Apr;69(1):39-56.

"Women assigned to Estratab plus Prometrium had diminished diastolic blood pressure responses during a speech stressor upon retesting, whereas women assigned to Estratab plus Provera increased."

* Steroids. 2003 Nov;68(10-13):831-6.

"These data have been confirmed by other groups, showing that progesterone plus estradiol protects, but MPA plus estradiol does not, against coronary artery vasospasm[19], thus highlighting the difference between natural progesterone and MPA."

"Recent work looking at the additional effects of natural progesterone or MPA on coronary blood flow and myocardial ischemia in postmenopausal women shows that progesterone has synergistic vasodilatory effects when added to estrogens [26]. In contrast, MPA does not share this action, therefore indicating that, on this particular target, all progestins are not the same [26]."

By the way, progesterone levels skyrocket during pregnancy. Are pregnant women dying left and right or having heart attacks?

And this last study

* Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:69-78.

"none of the recent statements addressed the
difference between MPA and progesterone, even though the
differences in action between the two molecules have been
demonstrated in receptor interaction and transactivation 1,16
and in vivo , in vessels 79 , brain 80 , and heart 81 . It would be
unfortunate if this confusion between the molecules deprives
menopausal women of the well-known effects and benefits of
progesterone."

I think it is critical for all those following HRT to understand the differences between progestogens (and estrogens/anti-androgens) and rely on science rather than hearsay to sort out what is fact from what is myth. Armed with this knowledge, one is better able to oversee their treatment in collaboration with a competent doctor who can, sometimes, learn from us. This can become a beautiful partnership between patient and doctor. :)

This is the reason I cite all these studies. To help the transgender community and those treating them.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Tessa James

Nice syllabus and references but still inconclusive for me.  I am not and never will be pregnant and am an old woman with an individual profile to consider.  I appreciate that there are folks out there with very different needs, goals and results.  Its not my boobs that make me a woman but i am happy to encourage more study on/for transgender people ;D
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
  •  

KayXo

One of those studies that I included were on transsexual women in the Netherlands, the one about progestative anti-androgens.

Those studies show quite unequivocally, in my opinion, that progesterone does not increase cardiovascular risks and appears to be, in general, quite safe, as opposed to some other progestogens. Can you please cite that survey/large clinical study you mentioned?

One needs to emotionally detach themselves, I think, when discussing about these issues and rely on scientific findings. When the same findings are observed over and over, those findings begin to reach significance.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Steph34

None of the studies seem, at first glance, to discredit my concerns about weight gain and harmful facial changes, which are often a consequence of weight gain independent of androgenic activity.

Quote from: April_TO on January 17, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
Prometrium is not androgenic (ie. masculinization) and I can attest that I have feminized more with progesterone cycling.

However, I must caution anyone who is just starting HRT to wait at least a year before you get on with progesterone.Yes, it is anti-estrogenic but with the standard dose of progesterone you should be fine. My estradiol serum levels are still through the roof and my testosterone is still within female range.

Stick with micronized bio-identical progesterone. Medroxyprogesterone acetate is bad news - stay away from it.

Many of us take lower doses of estrogen and will therefore be more susceptible to progesterone's anti-estrogenic effect. My estradiol level was high for several months but I had to bring it down due to side effects (increased scalp fungus, nausea and bloating). When on a lower dose of estrogen, micronized bio-identical progesterone does make my face bigger/pointier and causes abdominal fat gain. Still, the thought of waking up tomorrow morning with bigger, heavier, more sensitive breasts makes it very tempting. I have been on HRT for 16 months now, but my tiny little girls have not grown at all after the first 4 months.

MPA gave me a whole set of other issues - nightmares and aggression with much less breast swelling. There seems to be a consensus that MPA is not healthy.

Quote from: KayXo on January 17, 2016, 01:52:09 PM
I get the feeling that those studies/surveys you speak of included another form of progestogen as bio-identical progesterone does not increase cardiovascular risk and actually exerts an ANTI-DEPRESSIVE effect due to allopregnanolone.
It does have some anti-estrogenic effect, which could cause depression in some people. I personally sink into deep depression as soon as I go off estradiol, so a link with depression makes sense to me. My first doctor did not want to prescribe it because he, too, was worried about depression.
Accepted i was transgender December 2008
Started HRT Summer 2014
Name Change Winter 2017
Never underestimate the power of estradiol or the people who have it.
  •  

KayXo

I agree with you Steph. It's just that I think many doctors unfortunately don't make a distinction between other progestogens and progesterone, thinking that if their patients and many women got depression on MPA then they will surely get it as well with progesterone. It's all lumped together. We need to educate some of our doctors. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Eva Marie

Quote from: Cindy on January 17, 2016, 04:27:40 AM
Now get ready for 'it worked wonders for me' posts!

Well, here's mine  :)

Pros:

Boobs rounded out from traffic cone shaped to what I would call a natural female shape. Bustline has not increased significantly.
Butt got bigger.
Curves everywhere.

Cons:

Weight gain in the belly.
Moodiness and emotional swings the first year, less so now.

I cycle prometrium on a 12 day cycle as prescribed by my endo - he is very well known in the L.A. area and is a big believer in Progesterone.

         
  •  

KayXo

Are the swings due to cycling with progesterone?
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

KayXo

I found the famous study many doctors base themselves on to tell transwomen that progesterone is not necessary for breast development or won't do anything.

J Sex Med. 2014 May;11(5):1240-7.

"Our knowledge concerning the natural history and effects of different cross-sex hormone therapies on breast development in trans women is extremely sparse and based on low quality of evidence. Current evidence does not provide evidence that progestogens enhance breast development in trans women. Neither do they prove the absence of such an effect. This prevents us from drawing any firm conclusion at this moment and demonstrates the need for further research to clarify these important clinical questions."

How can then doctors assert with so much certainty that progestogens do nothing to enhance breast growth in transwomen, based on sparse and low quality evidence indicating that really, we don't know!

We also have that study earlier mentioned in transwomen where researchers note that progestative agents do make a difference in the formation of breasts.

Am J Surg Pathol. 2000 Jan;24(1):74-80.

"(...) Hence, combined progestative antiandrogens and estrogens are
necessary for genetically male breast tissue to mimic the natural
histology of the female breast."

"Our findings in patient F indicate that prolonged and
regular intake of proper doses of progestins and estrogens
is needed for the full development and maintenance
of the female histology."

"(...)progestative drugs are known to stimulate
the formation of acini and lobules in females.7 "

What I suggest you do is mention these two studies in transwomen to your doctors if they tell you progesterone won't do anything. See what they have to say. ;)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •