Successful technology to change one's gender identity--is it possible?

[Futurist]

I wish they could since that would give people who suffer from gender dysphoria another option for treatment.  The goal for treatment is to have your brain align with your body and physically transitioning is the only option for that.  If there were some neurological procedure that would make your brain "transition" instead of your body, I think many people would go for it.  I probably would have.

Out of curiosity--do you believe that such technology should also be available to cross-dreamers such as myself?

[Serverlan]

I'm not exactly sure what he is talking about as far as his reason for asking but his question makes sense.  He is asking if there will ever be a way to essentially change your brain's gender.

Seems to me he's trying to put himself in the shoes of a transgendered person, or more accurately become a trans person. That is, he wants to induce the incongruous experience of identifying as female while being gendered male by others. Of course, the intent may not be to experience gender dysphoria, since it's a condition not all trans people suffer from, but there's no guarantee as to whether he would or would not experience dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is caused, for the most part, by your brain expecting to have a body that doesn't match what you are assigned to at birth.  Everybody has gender identity, it's just that cisgender folk don't ever have to think about it.

Oddly enough, I'm quite familiar with gender dysphoria

What he is asking is if there is a way to change that.  I wish they could since that would give people who suffer from gender dysphoria another option for treatment.  The goal for treatment is to have your brain align with your body and physically transitioning is the only option for that.  If there were some neurological procedure that would make your brain "transition" instead of your body, I think many people would go for it.  I probably would have.

As badly as I've suffered dysphoria, I don't think I'd go for it. Messing with my body to match my gender is one thing, but messing with my mind to match my body is a totally different story. Even if it were guaranteed that I could have my gender changed, that would in effect be altering a whole lifetime of gender and gender-related experiences that have made me who I am. Our personal identity is the one constant in life, which is why diseases that afflict memory and disrupt this continuity cause so much distress.

[AbbyKat]

Out of curiosity--do you believe that such technology should also be available to cross-dreamers such as myself?

If a procedure like that were ever to be developed, it would be a medical treatment, to treat a medical condition.  I imagine it would be treated as such.  But who knows? 

I think the ethical concern would be the whole "do no harm" thing.  If you were to change the gender identity of a cisgender person, you would basically be causing a gender dysphoric condition in them which most medical professionals would probably be against.

None of this exists yet, though.  Either way, it is an interesting thread and an interesting question.  Almost like a philosophical exercise like those "morality" questions.

[Futurist]

Seems to me he's trying to put himself in the shoes of a transgendered person, or more accurately become a trans person. That is, he wants to induce the incongruous experience of identifying as female while being gendered male by others. Of course, the intent may not be to experience gender dysphoria, since it's a condition not all trans people suffer from, but there's no guarantee as to whether he would or would not experience dysphoria.

Yeah, that's sort of what I want.

Anyway, let me try explaining it this way (in third person form):

Daniel: My current self.
Danielle: The (trans-)woman that I would like to become.

Daniel would like to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would be extremely pleased if he were to indeed become an extremely feminine eunuch. However, Daniel is also extremely curious as to what it is like to be a (trans-)woman to the point of wanting to become a (trans-)woman himself. Thus, he alters his brain/mind and becomes Danielle. Now, is Danielle dysphoric? Yes, to some extent. However, due to Daniel's previous extreme feminization of his body, Danielle certainly isn't as dysphoric as she would have otherwise been. Indeed, the main things for Danielle to do would probably be to get FFS and maybe to get FFS and/or to get a vaginoplasty as well.

There--does that make sense?

[Serverlan]

Yeah, that's sort of what I want.

Anyway, let me try explaining it this way (in third person form):

Daniel: My current self.
Danielle: The (trans-)woman that I would like to become.

Daniel would like to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would be extremely pleased if he were to indeed become an extremely feminine eunuch. However, Daniel is also extremely curious as to what it is like to be a (trans-)woman to the point of wanting to become a (trans-)woman himself. Thus, he alters his brain/mind and becomes Danielle. Now, is Danielle dysphoric? Yes, to some extent. However, due to Daniel's previous extreme feminization of his body, Danielle certainly isn't as dysphoric as she would have otherwise been. Indeed, the main things for Danielle to do would probably be to get FFS and maybe to get FFS and/or to get a vaginoplasty as well.

There--does that make sense?

Pretty sure that's what I said previously. That is, you want to be trans, which would in turn create a drive to undergo sex affirmation surgery.

[Futurist]

If a procedure like that were ever to be developed, it would be a medical treatment, to treat a medical condition.  I imagine it would be treated as such.  But who knows?

Can't some treatments for medical conditions also be used for recreational purposes, though? For instance, isn't <not allowed> one such treatment?

I think the ethical concern would be the whole "do no harm" thing.  If you were to change the gender identity of a cisgender person, you would basically be causing a gender dysphoric condition in them which most medical professionals would probably be against.

Three things:

1. This appears to be a case of the is-ought fallacy.
2. This gender dysphoria can be successfully treated afterwards.
3. Refusing to provide such treatment to a person such as myself might very well result in greater harm than good. After all, I like feminine eunuchs, I view them as the best kind of men, and I would certainly be overjoyed to live the rest of my natural life as a feminine eunuch. However, if we will develop a cure to aging during my lifetime (or if I will get cryogenically preserved and then successfully revived), then being a feminine eunuch certainly wouldn't be good enough for me in the long(er)-run. Rather, if I were to live indefinitely, then I would strongly prefer to live indefinitely as a lesbian or strongly lesbian-leaning trans-woman. Indeed, if I will be denied such treatment, then I will probably either descend into alcoholism or torture myself by living non-stop as a woman for several years or more (with all of the gender dysphoria and everything) in order to get these "gate-keeping" doctors to change their minds about this and to allow me to get and to utilize this treatment. Thus, if "gate-keeping" doctors will deny me this treatment, then they will probably be causing me more harm than good. Indeed, this certainly (and unfortunately) isn't the first time that "gate-keeping" doctors' actions might have resulted in more harm than good; heck, take a look at this article from a medical journal about "back-alley" surgical castrations for aspiring eunuchs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4184492/

"According to American criminal law, the consent to bodily harm is not a valid defense against a charge of battery; however, this legal principle has sparked controversy [17]. The "mainstreaming" of body piercing indicates a relaxation of cultural attitudes toward consent to body harm, although the legal system does not appear to be changing to reflect current practice. The question of consent becomes more complicated in the context of our research because human castration is drastic, irreversible and, when performed by nonmedical professionals, carries a high risk of pain, infection, and even death by exsanguination. As such, to remove the risk associated with nonmedical surgeries, some have argued for the medical community to provide amputations of healthy limbs for individuals experiencing extreme xenomelia or body integrity identity disorder (see discussion in 18–20). We would extend this argument to genitals to encompass those individuals who seek a eunuch or "third gender" identity. It might be argued that the great difficulty in finding effective psychiatric counseling and medically qualified surgeons for this population may result in greater harm than an absolute adherence to the Hippocratic creed of "do no harm." Within the community of eunuchs and those wishing to be castrated, who frequent the Eunuch Archive website, there is strong opposition both to self-castration and to the use of cutters. However, there are many discussions of "safer" ways to obtain castrations from surgeons. Some now inject toxins directly into the testicles in order to produce sufficient damage that a surgeon will perform an orchiectomy for damage control [21].

As with castrations for sexual reassignment, we favor standards of care for males with extreme castration ideations (i.e., the potential clients of the cutters) that would provide safe options beyond self-castration or seeking the service of cutters [2,10,14]. However, we do stress that the treatment of these individuals and the decision whether to perform the procedure should lie with the discretion and clinical judgment of treating physicians. Healthcare professionals must take individuals who disclose castration fantasies seriously, particularly if risk factors (e.g., history of sexual abuse, having been threatened with genital mutilation, and having witnessing animal castrations) are identified."

Plus, in any case, the "Do no harm" principle was already thrown out of the window when doctors agreed to perform many/most/all elective cosmetic surgeries.

None of this exists yet, though.  Either way, it is an interesting thread and an interesting question.  Almost like a philosophical exercise like those "morality" questions.

Agreed; also, though, it is probably possible that such successful technology/treatment will eventually be created.

Mod Edit- It's marijuana illegal federally in the United States and as such  forbidden topic. TOS 5

[Futurist]

Pretty sure that's what I said previously. That is, you want to be trans, which would in turn create a drive to undergo sex affirmation surgery.

Not all trans-women actually get SRS, though.

[Deborah]

Deliberately inducing dysphoria in one's self is a very bad idea.  It is a prison.


Sapere Aude

[Futurist]

Deliberately inducing dysphoria in one's self is a very bad idea.  It is a prison.


Sapere Aude

Two points:

1. The amount of dysphoria that I want to induce will actually be rather limited. After all, my current self (Daniel) already wants to get surgically castrated and to strongly feminize both his body and his face.
2. By the time that such technology will be developed (if ever), we would presumably live in a society which is much more tolerant of transgender people. Thus, in such a scenario, the (trans-)female version of me (Danielle) will be able to get treatment for her gender dysphoria immediately (as opposed to waiting years or decades to get such treatment).

[Futurist]

Two points:

1. The amount of dysphoria that I want to induce will actually be rather limited. After all, my current self (Daniel) already wants to get surgically castrated and to strongly feminize both his body and his face.
2. By the time that such technology will be developed (if ever), we would presumably live in a society which is much more tolerant of transgender people. Thus, in such a scenario, the (trans-)female version of me (Danielle) will be able to get treatment for her gender dysphoria immediately (as opposed to waiting years or decades to get such treatment).

Frankly, Daniel and Danielle certainly have a lot of desires in common. Indeed, Danielle simply wants to take this feminization a little bit farther than Daniel wants to take it.

[Futurist]

Also, believe me--I am certainly not trying to anger anyone here and I certainly know that my own views in regards to this are unconventional and unorthodox. However, my own cross-dreaming simply won't and can't go away, which in turn will mean that I will continue having these thoughts and desires for the rest of my life.

[Serverlan]

Can't some treatments for medical conditions also be used for recreational purposes, though? For instance, isn't marijuana one such treatment?

Three things:

1. This appears to be a case of the is-ought fallacy.
2. This gender dysphoria can be successfully treated afterwards.
3. Refusing to provide such treatment to a person such as myself might very well result in greater harm than good. After all, I like feminine eunuchs, I view them as the best kind of men, and I would certainly be overjoyed to live the rest of my natural life as a feminine eunuch...

...Plus, in any case, the "Do no harm" principle was already thrown out of the window when doctors agreed to perform many/most/all elective cosmetic surgeries.

Agreed; also, though, it is probably possible that such successful technology/treatment will eventually be created.

It's not difficult to get surgery these days for most things, there will always be willing surgeons if you look hard enough.

But the question of harm isn't related, though it can be, to appearance altering surgery. The inherent harm involved in the procedure that you're suggesting, gender change, risks the onset of dysphoria and all of its associated pathologies. For this reason I think you'd have a tougher time trying to find a health professional willing to offer such a procedure.

And it's still not clear why you would need a gender change in the first instance. If, as you say, you are already committed to the idea of living like a "female eunuch," then there's nothing preventing you from following that dream now.

[Mariah]

  Okay folks. This thread is already going downhill and I can't see it going anywhere good. TOS 15 and TOS 5 are already broken. Thread Locked.