Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Gender change as a body mod

Started by RedJack, October 07, 2007, 10:02:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

cindybc

Hi Butterfly

That statement irked me some as well. The way I look at it is that it is corrective surgery to remove a deformity that should not have been there to start with, as well as bringing the innerself in line with the outer self. It was either that for me or turn myself into hamburger crashing my car into a rock cut. Or as I use to boast when in my teens that when I left I would leave in a fire ball of glory, hey I tried to. :o)  The first option wasn't a very appealing alternative and although the second one was a little more appealing, my will to survive won out.

Cindy
  •  

Caroline

Quote from: cindybc on October 09, 2007, 05:54:51 PM
Hi Butterfly

That statement irked me some as well. The way I look at it is that it is corrective surgery to remove a deformity that should not have been there to start with

In what way should the deformity not have been there to start with?  Like a lot of people here you were probably somebody born with functional male genitals and XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?
  •  

katia

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM
Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:12:23 PM
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.

Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?
  •  

Caroline

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 06:34:10 PM
i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't, you don't know & will never.  btw that applies for ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing is not being ts, capiche?

Er not really.  I believe SRS to be entirely necessary, and only 'elective' in the same way that any surgery is elective (you can refuse to have an operation for breast cancer, it's just not a good idea).  You can believe it's a modification or even mutilation and still believe it's entirely necessary.
  •  

Jaycie

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 06:34:10 PM
i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?

Isn't all of that rather irrelevant to the factual nature of performing a surgery that provides a primarily mental rather than physical benefit is still quite easy to consider 'cutting to pieces'? Also, what you may or may not believe about somebody else's condition is also irrelevant to, honestly, anyone else here.  ( Or at least should be since it's nothing more than text on a screen. ) :)  Nobody here is in any position to hand out diagnoses to other members or to tell someone what they are or are not and what they should or should not do medically.  ^_^
  •  

RebeccaFog


I'm with Dennis.  Being judgmental doesn't help anybody.

   There was another post on this site concerning the post gender thing.  there is an article here that shows the female bodied born point of view.
http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20070804.html

   I understand that RedJack (if that's his real name - [/snicker]) is male. However, I also believe that the most likely way to dissuade him in the event that he really is way of track, is to help inform him.

   I did see pictures of an MtF who had their testes implanted up into the lower abdomen, however, from my experience (don't ask) that is a good way to feel like you've been kicked there when, or if, you ever fool around with another person again.  The last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

  Other reasons in my view that you may not want to have such severe body mod performed on your genitals is that there is the possibility that you'll lose sexual sensation and the possibility that if the wrong thing is nicked, and I'm talking about things we haven't discussed like the urethra, you could end up with lifelong discomfort or even pain.
  In the case of having a vagina installed, there is also the possibility of having a nick of some kind that allows feces to leak into your body.
  I am not making this up.  If I'm wrong, then someone should correct me, however, these are facts that I've read about during all of my personal research.

  There is also the reversibility issue where you may decide that you want to have children with someone.  I guess if your testes are working, you can always have sperm taken in a lab, but how are you going to explain this to your partner?  Which kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?
  Also, is this the way you really want to live?  It may sound cutting edge, but what kind of people do you hang out with?  Are they going to know?  At some time, if you ever have a physical relationship, it's probably going to get out.  I guess there's the possibility that you'll just tell everyone who'll listen, but maybe you should go around and pretend that you are doing that when you see the people you associate with.

  As for me, whatever you want is your own business and is fine with me. I just feel that this thread has been missing the point that the 'can it be done' question applies to your self esteem and mental health as much as it applies to the physical aspect.



   A note for the TS crowd who are only pro TS surgery.
   There happens to be a group of people here who are not TS and who desire some modification or nullification in order to truly be happy.  Our situation is not so black or white as yours, however, it would be nice if you consider that we not only have feelings, but also needs that are very similar to your own and just as important.
   You're not the only ones who suffer GID and have to drag yourselves through modes of suicide.  At least you have a chance to receive your care. The establishment doesn't even recognize us null gendered ones.  When you're all happy 70 year old women, we'll still be passing in and out of dysphoric phases of maladjustment.

   You have shown me that everything is not only possible, but also achievable. Please stop blowing off the needs of rest of us.  It hurts.


I really mean no one no harm,


Rebis
   
 

   
  •  

Alison

QuoteI'm with Dennis.  Being judgmental doesn't help anybody.

It really doesn't -- we all encounter enough judgment in life, why must we continuously judge each other?  Try acceptance on for size.. It's easier. :)

QuoteThe last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

Fair point I never even considered, if you bump into a table edge or something like that?   :o


QuoteWhich kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?

Another fair point -- I'm a big supporter of full disclosure for significant others.  Your SO really can't even begin to understand and accept until they know.

QuoteA note for the TS crowd who are only pro TS surgery.
   There happens to be a group of people here who are not TS and who desire some modification or nullification in order to truly be happy.  Our situation is not so black or white as yours, however, it would be nice if you consider that we not only have feelings, but also needs that are very similar to your own and just as important.
   You're not the only ones who suffer GID and have to drag yourselves through modes of suicide.  At least you have a chance to receive your care. The establishment doesn't even recognize us null gendered ones.  When you're all happy 70 year old women, we'll still be passing in and out of dysphoric phases of maladjustment.

   You have shown me that everything is not only possible, but also achievable. Please stop blowing off the needs of rest of us.  It hurts.


GID is not a concept unique to just transexuals.  As well as dysphoria, there are even cisgendered individuals that suffer at least some extent of body dysphoria.

It does hurt.  To be brushed aside as if this entire population of people doesn't exist because their identity is difficult to understand?  It sounds very familiar, history is repeating itself.  We're all members of a minority group and it would be very beneficial to all involved if we could support each other, hence why we all gathered here at Susan's in the first place.
  •  

tinkerbell

[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same rubbish before, but thankfully there have been great answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are on this site. I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Quote from: DawnL on August 27, 2006, 08:46:17 PM
Quote from: elleane on August 27, 2006, 03:33:46 AM
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean.
I must say that I'm increasingly concerned about the use of the term 'Gender Dysphoria'.  An implied incongruity between mind and body.

The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind.
Apples and oranges.

If you are suggesting that one is 'born into the wrong body'; that somehow one's physical attributes are incorrect and that surgical alteration is the solution, then in my mind that lies far nearer body dysmorphia than gender dysphoria. 
(and yes I'm aware of the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community, to dispute this notion)

elleane
xxx

Wow!  "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind. Apples and oranges."

Funny, they're all connected together, more like the apple and the tree or the orange and the tree than apples and oranges.  Your metaphor is suspect and very inflammatory.  Body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria.  Maybe they're the same thing.  One can have many body dysmorphias but perhaps when gender is involved, gender dysphoria is the result, maybe a subset of body dysmorphia.  Fact is, they're all stupid labels.  If a man or woman is considering ending their life because of a life-long dysphoria/dysmorphia, I don't really care what you call it, and if surgery is the cure, then surgery is the cure, the same for a heart bypass patient--the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the non-TS, doubting, bigoted community aside.

Dawn


Ditto to what Dawn said.  Needless to say, I miss her wisdom dearly.

tink :icon_chick:
  •  

Alison

Quote[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same nonsense before, but thankfully there have greatest answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are and I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Tink -

Since you insist on going off topic.... <i> again</i>.

Care to point out the veiled bigotry? Because I must have missed it.

Poor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered.  :icon_no:
  •  

tinkerbell

Quote from: Alison on October 09, 2007, 09:08:15 PM
Quote[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same nonsense before, but thankfully there have greatest answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are and I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Tink -

Since you insist on going off topic.... <i> again</i>.

Care to point out the veiled bigotry? Because I must have missed it.

Poor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered.  :icon_no:

Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.

tink :icon_chick:
  •  

Alison

Quote
Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.


So you posted on this thread to accuse <i>certain</i> people of bigotry, and when I ask you to elaborate where you see that, you decline an answer. 

What was the point?  To get a jab in?

To be truthful I do see some intolerance, but I think where we're seeing it lies on opposite sides of the tracks.

The point some of us have been making throughout this thread is that ones body is their own to do with as they choose.  I certainly hope you don't see this view as <i>bigoted</i>.  If you do, I'm honestly curious as to why?

  •  

cindybc

QuoteYou don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

Hypatia. I do so agree with you. I need to get away from this thread, some of the things said I cannot even begin to conceive, nor do I need to feel like I am less then just being transsexual.

Cindy
  •  

Wing Walker

QuotePoor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered. 

And which one of us is qualified to give poor Redjack the answers that he (I presume that at least his presentation is male, thus the third-person male pronoun) seeks?

Will the person who has sufficient medical education, experience, licensure, and board or Royal College acceptance please stand up and volunteer to sign-off on Redjack's papers?

As for Redjack, I personally recommend in my diagnosed and documented gender dysphoric condition that he stick to safer ideas, like permanent removal of pubic hair to achieve something streamlined or maybe an entire body hair removal, head to toe. 

This is my opinion and like everyone else, I have mine.  Having said that, I am out of this topic.

Wing Walker
Walking Away
  •  

no_id

*yawns* Too much bickering, not enough connection, not enough debating. This topic is out of this forum's league. Someone lock it already to prevent it from dragging on-and-on into a muddy abyss. There's really no point[...]  8)

  •  

Wing Walker

Quote*yawns* Too much bickering, not enough connection, not enough debating. This topic is out of this forum's league. Someone lock it already to prevent it from dragging on-and-on into a muddy abyss. There's really no point[...]  Cool

May I please second that motion?

Respectfully,

Wing Walker
  •  

Dennis

There is also some interesting discussion here. Gonna give it till morning and see what happens to it.

Dennis
  •  

Christo

Quote from: Chris on October 10, 2007, 02:32:52 AM
you gotta do with ur body what u wanna do.  if ppl wanna do with there bodies whatever they want, they should get it.  dont see a problem. :) :) :)

  •  

cindybc

H Andra

QuoteIn what way should the deformity not have been there to start with?  Like a lot of people here you were probably somebody born with functional male genitals and XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  ]Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?

Hey I'm not a Dr, or anything like that, I am just a armature hobby astrophysicist & quantum physics. But yeah what you say makes sense to.

Cindy
  •  

Caroline

Quote from: Tink on October 09, 2007, 09:11:19 PM
Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.


We've been through this on this thread once already.  Forums are for discussion and exchange of ideas, if you want to state an opinion, state it.  Don't just tell other people to re-read what they have already read and in doing so imply they're incapable of comprehension just because they might not share your opinion.

Please feel free to throw my bull**** (as you call it) back at me.  If there are ever any apparent contradictions in my posts I'll be happy to explain further, or to have my error pointed out to me so I don't make the same mistake in the future.  :)
  •  

Butterfly

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:37:28 PM
Wow...  So,  for your next trick will you tell me who my biological mother's parents really are since you seem to know so much about me that i haven't said? I mean if you're that adept at knowing things you haven't been told then you must be able to use those abilities further.  ^_~

I quite know it isn't about you but since you asked how I know.  It was on your profile (androgyne, now I remember well).  I have also read posts from you & now the GRS issue where you implied that GRS is elective.  A TS (true TS) would never make a comparison of such magnitude because it's offensive to TS peeps.  There are peeps that do, but they are NON-TS and mostly hold transphobic, prejudiced viewpoints against trans women.
  •