There is no solution to this.....or maybe there is!

[Gertrude]

I have met a very small number of people. So small in fact, that I don't know anybody outside of my work and family.

And that may be part of the problem. Perspective makes a difference. I think you may be mistaken to call it a mental illness though. Many fundamentalists types heap us in that category because they lack the knowledge and perspective to understand it. In time, you may experience a change in intensity of these feelings and it's possible you could get to a point where you can't deny it any more. In time you'll know either way.

[SadieBlake]

I think I'm starting to see what is wrong with me. Well not what is wrong with me but more what I'm not. I don't think I'm trans. It doesn't add up.
...
You have all told me to just give HRT a try. There is no way I am going to self medicate. My therapists have never even hinted at trying HRT and I believe you need referrals saying you are eligible for hormone therapy.
...
Thank you all so much for trying to help me. That is incredibly kind of you. Sorry I have not been able to process what you have been trying to tell me. I can't make it compute in my head.

Take care of yourselves.

John

OK you've now hit my threshold for a bit annoyed, yes you said less than a week before this post that you'd likely flip flop so I'm not all surprised.

The problem is you're -- I can only assume willfully -- misconstruing people's points.

NOONE HERE has suggested self medicating, you are misstating a position and then arguing against that, not what was actually suggested. This is called a straw man argument and it's a rhetorical trick to try to invalidate a statement.

I and others have given you solid reasons why your entire 'scientific / logical' approach doesn't work and you've yet to really acknowledge those posts. We've also explained (ad nauseam) why ultimately you have to be the one to decide how to proceed. This means deciding whether and how you are transgender as well as how you wish to address it. That does not mean self medicating, it means working with your therapist to decide on treatment and then an endocrinologist will work with you on a specific approach and follow up with testing to ensure the dosages are correct.

Please don't come back with your aircraft diagnosis comparison or a similar straw man (because I will surely stop reading this thread if you do). You've been told how it's done. Many folks who have posted have different specific points and they all point in the same general direction. Your therapist and your friends here know what has worked for many many trans people and your saying we're all wrong is comparable to someone telling you to diagnose an aircraft problem without using procedure or logic.

I feel I can relate to your experience because I had to wrestle with my own trans issues (which were compounded with depression and a history of family abuse that I needed to understand and get past). Like you, I was very tied to solving problems with logic, thinking had always been my ally.

What I learned was that to understand my emotions I had to sit with them, to be quiet enough to actually hear them. It's not easy work  and I don't blame your conscious, thinking mind for pushing that away.

I'm going to finish by saying I'm not so quick to label you as transgender as many others have been. You've written many times that you think you are but without as far as I can remember touching on many specifics. I know those answers for me; I'm uncomfortable with a lot of male identified behaviors and have learned to let go of many of them, I'm attracted to feminine-identified things and I love dressing in soft and colorful fabrics. It took a long time to accept some of these things and simply getting in touch with my emotions was what had to happen first.

The initial journey was about 3 years at which point I decided not to outwardly transition and to simply allow myself to continue to be in touch with my feelings and to settle into being female brained. 15 years later I've decided to start HRT and it feels like coming home.

I've noted that before in this thread, I hope you will learn to listen and progress more and maybe thrash around a bit less.

[Deborah]

If I were you I would just ask my therapist directly at my next visit for their diagnosis of the root issue; trans, insanity, something else?  You have been seeing them long enough that they should have a pretty good idea.  That may at least validate in your mind what needs to be treated.  Then you can work with them to find an acceptable course of action.

It appears to me that much of your angst right now is uncertainty; that is understandable.  Getting past that should then allow you to figure out an effective plan to treat the dysphoria or other, as the case may be.

What I would not recommend is simply dropping therapy altogether right now.  This isn't going to get better until you can confront it directly and from your posts I don't think you will be able to do that alone.

Admitting to yourself you are trans DOES NOT commit you to any specific treatment.  And if your therapist rules out trans then you can deal effectively with whatever it is.

For whatever it's worth, and I know it isn't much :-), I am not convinced one way or the other if you are trans or not.  However, given your description of what you are going through right now it sure sounds like the same thing many of us have gone through in the past.

And to reiterate what others have said, nobody is recommending self medication.  Even if you did decide to take that route it would not solve your uncertainty.

Also you should stop depreciating yourself for wasting people's time here because you are not doing that at all.  The exact opposite in fact as it allows somebody else to be of some help in getting through this.


Sapere Aude

[jayne01]

Ok, I think I am starting to hit some nerves here and I am misunderstanding and I am also being misunderstood. I will try to clarify as best I can.

And that may be part of the problem. Perspective makes a difference. I think you may be mistaken to call it a mental illness though. Many fundamentalists types heap us in that category because they lack the knowledge and perspective to understand it. In time, you may experience a change in intensity of these feelings and it's possible you could get to a point where you can't deny it any more. In time you'll know either way.

I hope nobody thinks I am suggesting that being trans is having a mental illness. When I say I think I may have a mental illness I mean that instead of being trans I may have a mental illness, as an alternative, not the same thing.

The problem is you're -- I can only assume willfully -- misconstruing people's points.

That is not true.

What I learned was that to understand my emotions I had to sit with them, to be quiet enough to actually hear them. It's not easy work  and I don't blame your conscious, thinking mind for pushing that away.

That is easier said than done. I don't really have many emotions. And the emotions I do have don't make any sense to me. My therapist asked me how do I decide what I want to eat. My answer was that I usually go for what is quickest, easiest most practical at the time. She asked if I ever decide based on what I might "feel" like eating. I answered "no", that makes no sense. Food is something you eat to stay alive. It is a necessary function. That surprised her. I have no real connection with emotions, they are not logical.

If I were you I would just ask my therapist directly at my next visit for their diagnosis of the root issue; trans, insanity, something else?  You have been seeing them long enough that they should have a pretty good idea.  That may at least validate in your mind what needs to be treated.  Then you can work with them to find an acceptable course of action.

I have done exactly that. More than once. I never get a real answer. It is always a roundabout answer that puts it all back on me. That is why I am so frustrated. What is the point of having professionals if all they do is ask you "what do you think?" or "I cannot answer that, only you can answer that". Why have I spent thousands of dollars trying to get help only to be told that I need to answer my own questions?

It appears to me that much of your angst right now is uncertainty; that is understandable.  Getting past that should then allow you to figure out an effective plan to treat the dysphoria or other, as the case may be.

What I would not recommend is simply dropping therapy altogether right now.  This isn't going to get better until you can confront it directly and from your posts I don't think you will be able to do that alone.

Admitting to yourself you are trans DOES NOT commit you to any specific treatment.  And if your therapist rules out trans then you can deal effectively with whatever it is.

For whatever it's worth, and I know it isn't much :-), I am not convinced one way or the other if you are trans or not.  However, given your description of what you are going through right now it sure sounds like the same thing many of us have gone through in the past.

Sapere Aude

That is what I have been trying to say. I have this uncertainty and spending all these months and money on therapy, I am no closer to an answer than when I started.

I have asked many times for some kind of test. I get it, no such test exists. My therapist used an example that there are many medical conditions that cannot be tested, such as MS. I understand that, but I don't go to the doctor and say "hey doc, I believe I have MS and I would like a referral for medication". What I do is tell the doctor I have xyz symptoms and the doctor then says that "there is no definitive test, but in my expert opinion I believe that you may have MS and I would recommend trying x medication at y dose and see if that helps, then we will go from there". Why can't the same process be applied for trans? My therapist has met hundreds of trans people, it's what she does, I have never met one. I have no reference point. It seems the only function therapists serve is to provide the necessary references to an endo and to help you adapt/blend/transition (whatever your path may be). They don't diagnose anything. Does what I am trying to say make any sense?

[Deborah]

Yes, it makes sense.  All therapists are not like that, unwilling to make a diagnosis.  I agree with you that at some point they should be able to tell you something with a reasonable degree of certainty.


Sapere Aude

[jayne01]

Yes, it makes sense.  All therapists are not like that, unwilling to make a diagnosis.  I agree with you that at some point they should be able to tell you something with a reasonable degree of certainty.


Sapere Aude

I am up to my 4th therapist. The first one I understand not wanting to diagnose. He has no trans experience and was just temporary until my turn came up in the waiting list. The others have extensive trans experience, two of them, that is all they do and have come highly recommended, both from other psychologists and members on this forum who have used them. That is why I think the problem is me and not the therapist. If I was trans then this would all be right up their ally, but if I'm not trans then this probably lies outside their area of expertise. Do I look for yet another therapist? I'm running out of ideas.

[jayne01]

Also, I would like to apologise if I have not responded to all replies. Sometimes i get a few replies at once and I start responding while the other person is online, so after a few back and forth replies I lose track of which replies I have responded to. I don't intentionally ignore anybody.

[JoanneB]

What do you mean I refuse to meet a trans person? It's not like people walk with a neon sign saying they are trans. I meant I have never met anyone who is trans. I'm not a social person in the best of times. Put me in a room with only one other person and unless that person speaks, or would be a very quiet room. I am not comfortable talking to strangers. I'm weird like that.

If you want real answers you need to hear, to see, and perhaps eventually talk to people who may, or may not, have shared experiences or feelings. You are not going to learn anything from turning the spigot to your brain in a therapist's office.

You refuse to associate with trans people beyond "The Anonymity" the internet offers you from the safe confines of a desk in a dark corner of your basement. At one time I was very much like you not wanting to be around people. Today, I know the reason why.

You don't want to be trans. You are afraid of catching 'Trans germs". You believe you have to be "All In" or not. You don't want to hear feelings from people who've been there pouring the hearts out and seeing the same pained look in their faces that you see in the mirror.

If you truely wanted to see many of the shapes and flavors of trans people, you'd find a support group and test drive a meeting or two or three. Don't stop with just one because you'll just be wasting your time and the empathy of others wanting to help you in some way

I am an engineer and a damn good one at that. I'm the guy who can fix anything. (Except me) I also had a long stint at being a mechanic. Throw in electrical work, plumbing, carpentry, sheet metal, machinist. They all follow very neat orderly rules. I think the reason techie types are well represented in the trans population is precisely because we are seeking out order. Some sort of logic as to why, or why not.

After a good 40+ years of fooling myself, I learned better. Among my daily affirmations, especially if a WTF am I doing meltdown starts creeping up is:

"I Know What Does Not Work"

[jayne01]

If you want real answers you need to hear, to see, and perhaps eventually talk to people who may, or may not, have shared experiences or feelings. You are not going to learn anything from turning the spigot to your brain in a therapist's office.

You refuse to associate with trans people beyond "The Anonymity" the internet offers you from the safe confines of a desk in a dark corner of your basement. At one time I was very much like you not wanting to be around people. Today, I know the reason why.

You don't want to be trans. You are afraid of catching 'Trans germs". You believe you have to be "All In" or not. You don't want to hear feelings from people who've been there pouring the hearts out and seeing the same pained look in their faces that you see in the mirror.

If you truely wanted to see many of the shapes and flavors of trans people, you'd find a support group and test drive a meeting or two or three. Don't stop with just one because you'll just be wasting your time and the empathy of others wanting to help you in some way

I am an engineer and a damn good one at that. I'm the guy who can fix anything. (Except me) I also had a long stint at being a mechanic. Throw in electrical work, plumbing, carpentry, sheet metal, machinist. They all follow very neat orderly rules. I think the reason techie types are well represented in the trans population is precisely because we are seeking out order. Some sort of logic as to why, or why not.

After a good 40+ years of fooling myself, I learned better. Among my daily affirmations, especially if a WTF am I doing meltdown starts creeping up is:

"I Know What Does Not Work"

Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

[Gertrude]

Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

And people that think they might be. I'm having a difficult time understanding your reticence. Do you have cultural, religious or familial issues where being trans would cause cognitive dissonance?  It seems like you're an answer looking for the right question.

[jayne01]

And people that think they might be. I'm having a difficult time understanding your reticence. Do you have cultural, religious or familial issues where being trans would cause cognitive dissonance?  It seems like you're an answer looking for the right question.

I'm not sure I understand what you just said. I'm not religious. I'm Australian so there is no cultural issue. My parents think homosexuals are somehow sick in the head and I don't think they even know the word transgender. I don't share their beliefs at all and I get quite angry at them if they make any comments that are derogatory, but maybe when the question is aimed at me some of their views become apparent. I don't know.

[SadieBlake]

You don't need to reply to every post, my concern is that you've been given a lot of solid ideas why you need to try something new and I see you repeating the same complaints which suggests not so much that you don't get the message as you're not able to do anything about it, I'm asking you to do something about it. If that includes telling your therapist that you think you are trans and you want to discuss hrt or whatever then do that. I spent years dressing femme in private and it helps, it makes me feel good. Now the time for hrt has come and that's helping more. Or meet some people (yes lgbtQ includes 'questioning').

I get not easy and I can promise it won't get easier, at least not at first. Do you take no pleasure in doing your work well? That is emotion. You could read Robert Pirsig's  "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance'.

You thinking you have no emotion suggests to me you very much need to get in touch with them but it's your call. That's the point, ultimately it's your call.

[Gertrude]

I'm not sure I understand what you just said. I'm not religious. I'm Australian so there is no cultural issue. My parents think homosexuals are somehow sick in the head and I don't think they even know the word transgender. I don't share their beliefs at all and I get quite angry at them if they make any comments that are derogatory, but maybe when the question is aimed at me some of their views become apparent. I don't know.

My point is that if you come from a family or culture that has anachronistic ideas about lgbt issues, it may affect how you would feel about yourself or react to finding out about yourself being in the lgbt spectrum. Shame is a motivator.

[jayne01]

My point is that if you come from a family or culture that has anachronistic ideas about lgbt issues, it may affect how you would feel about yourself or react to finding out about yourself being in the lgbt spectrum. Shame is a motivator.

Ok. Sorry, I had to consult a dictionary, you use many words that I don't understand.

[Gendermutt]

I wish I had a bit more time tonight. But I will say this, you are attempting to get counselors to diagnose you. They don't do that. They work with you (the good ones) to help you through what you have. They can't help you if you are fighting being transgender. They will be of no help at all. Only a waste of money, so until you stop fighting yourself, stop going to them.

Stop thinking that if you do accept transgender, that hormone therapy is a must. If there is one thing I do see a lot of on this site that I am not always in agreement with, is the suggestion of HRT so easily, or cavalier perhaps. HRT is serious business. I do not believe that someone who is struggling to accept themselves should be doing it. It should be  for people who are comfortable with themselves and have a fairly good idea of what path they are on. There may be a day where you do decide to use HRT, but as someone in an above post had stated, that they took 3 years of just acceptance. No outward transition, just 3 years to come to a point of comfort of themselves, and then did not start HRT for another 15 I believe. Stop putting the cart before the horse.

Transgender is a state of being. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing that any of us do is considered a standard. It is all our own unique individual path and choices we make. I have explained  many different directions or choices there are, and I am sure I haven't come close to mentioning all of them, because they are basically as unlimited as life itself is. I know of someone who has done a complete social transition. lives 24/7/365 female, but has chosen to do nothing to alter their physical body. No surgery of any kind, no HRT. Not a typical path, but it is theirs. STOP putting the cart before the horse.

[JoanneB]

Aren't trans support groups reserved for trans people?

From my understanding of other groups in addition to knowing very well after 7 years how my group operates many "TG" support groups are open to those who are questioning. Hell! NO BODY wants to be trans. But.... Is that really who I am? Oh F....! 

There are TG umbrella organizations and groups that if you are say, not a fully hetero cross-dresser and are doing nothing medically nor thinking about it towards transitioning you can come. Seems like most TS (as in looking to medically transition) groups will welcome anyone as long as you are not "A ->-bleeped-<-". Hence, often a need for some sort of pre-screening and not an open meeting.

[Sno]

(Trigger warnings)






I have an emotionally abusive father, and a mother who is a recovering addict. They live in a world of codependency. The dissonance between the obligation and expectation of me growing up, my studies, and what I wanted to do was so large that it took me to crisis point.

Looking back now, it was driven by not fitting what was expected of a man. Yes, I could do maths, but I didn't enjoy it. I could do science too, but I was only interested in biological science, and that got dropped because it didn't lead to a worthwhile career, and "all worthwhile careers" were "manly": engineering, or a pure physical science - at a push computing (yes this was in the dark ages)...

My late childhood was a mess! as a result, I spent 18 months on antidepressants, deliberately went non-contact and that probably saved my life. At the time it was do or die.

What I had learned was the abusive triumvirate: Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Applying these principles :

We feel obliged (thanks to our birth gender), to fit a gender expectation.

We are frightened, when we discover that we don't.

We feel guilty when we do things that are not expected by our gender expectations, and become frightened, because we have not met our gender obligation, and the spiral continues.

A diagnosis would grant you permission to be who you feel you are, without guilt. This would break the cycle, as you would have been relieved of the burden of your cultural obligation (shame).

As the  diagnosis would be from a trusted person in authority, (a professional gate keeper of what is "normal" aka a psychologist), it could be more acceptable to local society as a result, but YMWV with that.

The support groups I have been to, have been happy that I was respectful, interested, and wanted to learn... And I met some lovely people along the way.



Sno

[autumn08]

If there is one thing I do see a lot of on this site that I am not always in agreement with, is the suggestion of HRT so easily, or cavalier perhaps.

You must understand, this isn't the first "Jayne accepts herself as transgender and then regresses thread." 4 therapists and many members on this forum have tried to convince Jayne to incorporate her gender into her life, without low-dose HRT, and have repeatedly rebutted everyone of her protests.

I think we're making progress because I haven't recently heard Jayne use the "I don't want to harm anyone argument," or the "I don't want to be transgender so I'm not transgender argument," or the machine comparison, or some of the other arguments, but she still can't dislodge her internalized-transphobia. She is still trying to legitimize her gender dysphoria, when the problem is that she feels it needs legitimization.

If Jayne hadn't left this forum before, wasn't contemplating leaving now, wasn't contemplating stopping therapy, and I could see an inflection point on the horizon, then I wouldn't be so cavalier in recommending low-dose HRT. I think the logic of forum members and her therapists alone though, may just lead to an indefinite hiatus, so while I've acknowledged that trying low-dose HRT is putting the cart before the horse, like it has for many others, it may coerce the horse to finally move forward.

Not taking a definitive step may be more risky than taking a definitive step. Jayne hasn't shown an ability to step back from this issue, and has shown a tendency for suicidal ideation. Something is eventually going to give, so I want her to begin to build the ability to circumvent her internalized-transphobia and accomplish something she can't easily step away from and which may create a feeling of legitimacy. 

A support group, of course, would be a more prudent option than low-dose HRT and it seems that Jayne might finally be opening up to that idea. Many, myself included, have tried to convince her to join a support group, and maybe now that she has made some progress, she will. Any solution though, I think first requires more influencing factors than she is currently receiving, be it low-dose HRT, a support group, or something else.

[Obfuskatie]

I'm late to joining this thread, but you stated a few things I really want to address.

(Trigger warnings)
What I had learned was the abusive triumvirate: Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Applying these principles :

We feel obliged (thanks to our birth gender), to fit a gender expectation.

We are frightened, when we discover that we don't.

We feel guilty when we do things that are not expected by our gender expectations, and become frightened, because we have not met our gender obligation, and the spiral continues.

A diagnosis would grant you permission to be who you feel you are, without guilt. This would break the cycle, as you would have been relieved of the burden of your cultural obligation (shame).

Obligation, Fear and Guilt are part of the abusive pattern as much as they are a part of being trans or gender non-conforming. They are three methods of asserting control over a person. Diagnosis doesn't necessarily break this cycle, we are the only people who can free ourselves from the guilt we accumulate and hang onto. It may require the guidance of a therapist to do it, but it's our internal struggle, we don't need someone else's permission.

It's okay to not be perfect. No one is normal. There's no way to measure or judge any of those two concepts. The pressure from the expectations placed on us, distracts us from the really important things. Permit yourself to be unique, different, interesting. Being trans doesn't keep us from being ordinary/normal/(whatever qualitative word you want to use). Being trans just means our life is complicated and different from the expectations of our family, friends and partners.

We don't really have to meet those old and gendered expectations. All we have to do is live our lives, hopefully finding a way to be happy in a way that fulfills us. We can't and shouldn't sacrifice our happiness for fear of rocking boats or upsetting the people that matter to us.

Anyway, I know this is somewhat preachy, and I apologize for that, but I hope it helps. I hope you find the path to your happiness. Take care [emoji2]

[jayne01]

Please don't refer to me as she or her. It seems very weird and I have to read what is written more than once before I realise you are talking about me. I chose the name Jayne as my username because it is anonymous like Jayne Doe or John Doe. My real name is John, so I went with Jayne. I might change my username someday. I'm not very good at coming up with names. My music playlists on my iPod are named john01, john02, etc... Naming things is not my thing.

I'm happy for you to refer to me as John, him, he, etc.

Thanks.