Is it me or was it predetermined

[DawnOday]

I 've been reading a lot and learning a lot. The other day I discovered the misuse of medication in the 50's and 60's, medications that based on Moms history she very well could have been prescribed, DES Diethylstilbestro is a drug used prevent still births. It never worked for that but was still highly used, up into the 80's. If given in the first trimester it very well could have played a part in deciding my gender. Parts are created in the first 3-4 month, genitals are usually formed in this time. The brain develops at a much slower pace. So the disconnect comes when the brain is saying female and your  body parts are saying something different. Another indicator that Mom may have been given this drug, is the fact my testicles did not drop until I was 17 add to that a micro sized  penis.  Like I've said before I was like this, wanting to be a girl very early on in my life. I've tried to suppress it and was successful for about 15 years. Then one day it came back with a vengence, the desire to be female. That's where I am right now. The therapist is supposed to put me in contact with a social worker and she even mentioned HRT. That would be so nice. To finally be the me I always knew i should be. To be nice instead of always angry, I would love it. So despite what Christians are saying, I did not choose, I am not a pervert, This is a very real medical condition not a choice I made. But since this is the path I was given, it is my choice to take it and do the best I can.There are a few hundred thousand others like me. No one knows for sure because there are no tests you can take and most of the records from the 50's have been destroyed. But all the indicators are there.I wish I could have done this when I was 25, conversion to my real self. Now all I need to do is convince the Dr's my heart disease won't interfere. I may have to go to patches or injections. But however I get there I will make the most of this opportunity. Are any of you in the same boat?

[Deborah]

Yes, my mother told me a few years ago that she used DES.  She saw an article about it in the paper. 

If you do a search there is a huge DES thread here with some pretty good info and links.  One member is pretty much a subject matter expert.


Sapere Aude

[Michelle_P]

Hi, Dawn.  Yep, I'm another one, almost identical situation except that when the testicles still hadn't dropped at age 15, I was given a series of injections of "vitamins, so you'll grow up right". I went from an effeminate A student to a hairy, angry D student, so that worked well.

There are a number of DES 'sons' here on this site.

[Deborah]

With me everything external seemed to be ok.  I have been told my face looked effeminate although I don't know if that was DES related.  I also had pretty high T when it got tested.  Internally I have no idea.  My mind was definitely affected though.

It is likely that with DES it was all about timing and when the initial doses began.


Sapere Aude

[mm]

teenage years is much too late for your testicles to drop, the damage has already been done.  Today drs want them in place by age 2.  I can easily see your problems now.

[DawnOday]

teenage years is much too late for your testicles to drop, the damage has already been done.  Today drs want them in place by age 2.  I can easily see your problems now.

Unfortunately in the 50's qnd 60's young people did not envision being able to change. We had very few examples to emulate. Dr Lewis did not seem concerned until after I was 15. Also we did not have the resources available today, like the internet.

[HughE]

...my testicles did not drop until I was 17 add to that a micro sized  penis.  Like I've said before I was like this, wanting to be a girl very early on in my life...

That certainly sounds like DES. Male genital development takes place in a window starting about 7 weeks after conception and finishing at the end of week 12. Penile development is actually split into 2 parts. The first part is where the structure of the penis forms, and the second is a growth and elongation phase, which continues into the later stages of the pregnancy. Testicular descent is something that's also ongoing throughout the pregnancy. Undescended testes and a shorter than normal penis seem to be very common among genetic males exposed to DES, and I think this is because we had normal male levels of testosterone during the first trimester, but then heavy suppression of testosterone for most of the rest of our prenatal development. This has affected the two aspects of physical sexual development that continue into the later stages of the pregnancy (testicular descent and elongation of the penis), as well as causing us to undergo predominantly female brain development (most of the important differences between male and female brains seem to arise during the second half of the pregnancy).

Other symptoms that seem to be very commonly associated with DES exposure are: hypogonadism (chronic below normal male testosterone production); reduced fertility (usually not enough to make you completely infertile though); and a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", that makes you look a bit like a cross between a man and a woman, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions.

[RobynD]

I will never know likely. (do they even keep medical records from the 60s?) I think it is somewhat likely my mom was given DES as she was at the then advanced age of 43 and had miscarriages in the past, and all three of my siblings were somewhat premature. To my knowledge my testicles dropped on schedule, but i am not sure. My penis, while not a micropenis, has always been small in comparison to 90% of others.

I've taken the online assessment, but there is so much i don't know about my mom' medical care, that it is not much help.

[Michelle_P]

Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction.  It's nice to be able to point at something and say "That's why!", but knowing or not knowing doesn't really alter my current situation.   I am what I am, no matter how I got here, and the actions I need to take at this point are not affected.

It's useful in debating with the usual suspects, but that's about it.   For the broader community, it's a useful warning that things are not a simple (or simplistic) as they appear, and there are lots of moving parts that go into constructing one of us humans.

[Kerry30Den]

Well said Michelle... I say focus on you and who you are rather that why you are the way you are.  Anecdotally the why is nice, but better to spend your time and energy on being you

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[chris.deee]

I'm with Michele on this one.

After years of therapy, I landed on "it just is what is is" and stopped looking for causality from my childhood.

It's important to shed the guilt and shame many of us associate with this to finally be OK with it all.

I for one can look back on any number of things that MAY have contributed. At the end of the day, I just accepted that this is how I am and learning to balance it with the rest of my life became the focus. 

YMMV

[HughE]

Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction.

It's important for all of us in a number of ways. Firstly and most importantly, it shows there's a physical basis to being trans (that it's the result of atypical hormone levels during your prenatal development, and is basically a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals). In other words, trans people are who they perceive themselves to be, people whose brains developed as the opposite sex to their physical and genetic sex. Secondly, it shows that exposure to pharmaceutical hormones during their prenatal development can make people trans (which is something you'd expect to be possible since it's quite easy to induce opposite-sexed brain development in animals by administering hormones to the pregnant mother, but nonetheless doesn't get any acknowledgement in the safety testing etc that these drugs currently receive).

[DawnOday]

Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction.  It's nice to be able to point at something and say "That's why!", but knowing or not knowing doesn't really alter my current situation.   I am what I am, no matter how I got here, and the actions I need to take at this point are not affected.

It's useful in debating with the usual suspects, but that's about it.   For the broader community, it's a useful warning that things are not a simple (or simplistic) as they appear, and there are lots of moving parts that go into constructing one of us humans.

I would agree with you if there were not so many misconceptions by the so called straight community. The condition is forced upon unsuspecting individuals then we are chastised because of the restroom we use? It's ignorance, just as I was ignorant until about three months ago. If I had not lost my wife due to my condition and not understanding the phenomenon. If I had not sabotaged every relationship I have ever had with guilt and a deep down knowledge I was different. It would also be different if I was 5'7" instead of 6'3". But alas, It has always been present, always on my mind. I didn't want to destroy a second relationship with a wife who is willing to join my investigation in finding myself, especially because we have two children, now grown and with their own paths to discovery for themselves. I've now got the time to investigate. At the time I was looking to be the best Dad I could be. Believe me I've done a lot of soul searching, did the praying thing, hiding in plain sight and still not understanding. Unfortunately/fortunately I have a very active brain that does not settle. I must have answers and now that I do. In my profession I have done over 300 root cause analysis, I was never able to find my root cause and nothing upsets a perfectionist more than imperfection, I can educate others. We are not perverts. We are not interested in your wife and children. Most DES Sons have no interest in the same sex, as do I. I cross dress because of health problems. If I could have converted I would have 40 years ago because it's not what I want to be. It's what I have to be. If I was not driven by events before my birth I would still be married to my first wife and I would not be wondering what went wrong. I always blamed my Mom for dressing me up, when in all likelihood I asked her to dress me up. I always blamed my wife for cheating on me, but my desire to be "who I am" led to secrecy and deceit. Luckily my present wife is trying to understand and the DES explanation has allowed her to believe me when I say "I love you".

[DawnOday]

I'm with Michele on this one.

After years of therapy, I landed on "it just is what is is" and stopped looking for causality from my childhood.

It's important to shed the guilt and shame many of us associate with this to finally be OK with it all.

I for one can look back on any number of things that MAY have contributed. At the end of the day, I just accepted that this is how I am and learning to balance it with the rest of my life became the focus. 

YMMV

Here is the difference Chriss-Dee. It took you "Years of therapy" so far I've had three appointments. I'm still in the discovery mode even though I have been this way my whole life. Also my first foray was to discover why I was so depressed and not why do I crossdress. I was fully prepared to keep this to myself. Every time I went to counseling prior I was unable / unwilling to address the 300 lb gorilla. Instead I asked for help to reduce stress. So I ended up in group therapy where absolutely no one was dealing with the same symptoms as I.

[chris.deee]

Here is the difference Chriss-Dee. It took you "Years of therapy" so far I've had three appointments. I'm still in the discovery mode even though I have been this way my whole life. Also my first foray was to discover why I was so depressed and not why do I crossdress. I was fully prepared to keep this to myself. Every time I went to counseling prior I was unable / unwilling to address the 300 lb gorilla. Instead I asked for help to reduce stress. So I ended up in group therapy where absolutely no one was dealing with the same symptoms as I.

Dawn,

You beat me to it.  I was just rereading this thread and was about to reply to my own post with this:


After reading my post, it was pretty glaring that I started the post with "After years of therapy..."

Had it not been for those years of therapy and the process that implies, there is no way on earth I could have gotten to the point of "it is what it is" unburdened by guilt and shame. 

My intention in that post was not to discount the journey, but rather to indicate that  the specific causes of this aren't the most important results.

What I did discount was that part of that journey by necessity is trying to answer the question of "why?" even if the answers are inconclusive or not terribly satisfying.


Apologies to all if my post dismissed anyone's desire to dig into this. My post was worded pretty insensitively.

All the.best,
Chris

[DawnOday]

Chris, The unbelievable relief I feel from having some life long questions answered is so liberating. To realize I am not dirty, that others are in the same boat as I. Three months ago I didn't have these answers. Hell I didn't even know the questions to ask. I have noticed a marked change in my attitude and my wife appreciates it. I never felt I was the sollen creton I had become.  I have avoided making friends and the ones I've had, my angry attitude destroyed them. Now that I have some information I can set about making amends. However I came to this place, I realize this is actually me. As I always wanted to be, regardless of the cause or lack thereof.  By exploring my past, I have discovered a  future. As a whole me.

[chris.deee]

Chris, The unbelievable relief I feel from having some life long questions answered is so liberating. To realize I am not dirty, that others are in the same boat as I. Three months ago I didn't have these answers. Hell I didn't even know the questions to ask. I have noticed a marked change in my attitude and my wife appreciates it. I never felt I was the sollen creton I had become.  I have avoided making friends and the ones I've had, my angry attitude destroyed them. Now that I have some information I can set about making amends. However I came to this place, I realize this is actually me. As I always wanted to be, regardless of the cause or lack thereof.  By exploring my past, I have discovered a  future. As a whole me.

It's wonderful to hear how much relief/insight/peace you are getting so rapidly.

You have your entire life ahead of you to benefit from this. For that, you are blessed.

All the best,
Chris

[ChasingAlice]

i have a quick question. my mother kept having miscarriages and eventually had me in '77. was DES a possibility.

[Deborah]

If you are in the US, probably not as it was not used for that purpose after 1971.   http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/about/history.html

However, there are other drugs she may have been given that could have had the same effect.  See the chart at the bottom of the linked page.


Sapere Aude

[HughE]

I've been told by some of the DES daughters I chat to on Facebook that doctors in the US continued prescribing DES "off label" for years after the FDA withdrew it's approval for DES as a treatment for preventing miscarriages in 1971. The FDA never banned DES; they just ceased recommending it as a treatment for preventing miscarriages.

DES was heavily prescribed in Europe during the 1970s too, in fact the peak in prescriptions in Europe took place in the 1970s, as this chart shows:


(the apparent drop off in usage in the US from the mid-1950s onwards in that chart is probably misleading, as DES was originally manufactured in 5mg tablets, and during the 1950s the pharmaceutical companies brought in new higher dosage 25mg and 100mg formulations specifically for women who were taking it for miscarriage prevention, so the apparent drop off could just mean that five 5mg tablets were being replaced with one 25mg one).