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Non-penile inversion depth

Started by Ella_bella, June 20, 2016, 08:47:05 AM

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Ella_bella

So can anyone explain to me what are the determining factors are for the maximum attainable depth with non-penile inversion technique with Chett/Suporn?





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AnonyMs

I don't know the answer, but that's an interesting question.

Suporn did a paper where he reported depth, but not the why of it

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF FULL-THICKNESS SCROTAL AND GROIN SKIN GRAFT VAGINOPLASTY IN MTF SEX REASSIGNMENT SURGERY
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/srspapers.aspx#depth

He is well known for getting good depth though. I've heard of 8.5" and 9.0".

I don't know much about Dr Chettawut.
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Ella_bella

As always AnonyMs... you're wonderful!





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AnonyMs

Quote from: Ella_bella on June 20, 2016, 08:55:58 AM
As always AnonyMs... you're wonderful!

I don't get that very often. Now if only my wife would say it...
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TinaVane

I always heard if u have a 12 inch ding dong you will get a 12 inch vagina ... Don't know how truth that is tho ... I know a sex change that have the colon one who said she took a 13 inch all the way Trinidad guy. I don't buy it tho [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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mmmmm

Achievable depth is always limited by anatomy... first and foremost by size and shape of pelvis, secondary by available skin tissue. Another thing is dissection. If surgeon isnt able to create enough space, due to complicated dissection for reasons like inner scar tissue - adhesions, nothing else matters. What Thai surgeons do differently (with non-penile-inversion), is different arrangement of skin flaps, which are used on the outside. And use of skin graft(s) for neovaginal wall. 

Dr. Suporn, in majority of patients, only uses scrotal skin graft for vaginal wall. He uses micro-fenestration in skin graft preparation, which increases the surface area. Even if a patient had small scrotum, it is likely enough for 6 inch vaginal depth. In cases where patients were 10, 20 or more years on HRT, or previously had orchiectomy, or skin damage by electrolysis, it might not be enough, and additional skin graft might be needed.

Dr. Chettawut and other Thai surgeons use normal full-thickness skin graft, which is sometimes enough for 7 or more inch (imagine sagging scrotum), and sometimes isnt. It comes down to your anatomy. If patient wants extra depth, but they only have scrotum skin available for 4-5 inch depth, additional graft (usually from groin area) can be used for additional depth. 

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Devlyn

Quote from: Ella_bella on June 20, 2016, 08:47:05 AM
So can anyone explain to me what are the determining factors are for the maximum attainable depth with non-penile inversion technique with Chett/Suporn?

Here ya go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vaginal_size

"The depth of the typical neovagina created by male-to-female sex reassignment surgery is generally limited by the length of Denonvilliers' fascia,[citation needed] and is reported to be between 11 and 12 cm (4.3-4.7 in), within the range of the natural female vagina.[2]"

Hugs, Devlyn
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AnonyMs

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 20, 2016, 02:38:28 PM
"The depth of the typical neovagina created by male-to-female sex reassignment surgery is generally limited by the length of Denonvilliers' fascia,[citation needed] and is reported to be between 11 and 12 cm (4.3-4.7 in), within the range of the natural female vagina.[2]"

Something wrong with that 11 to 12 cm, I've not often heard that shallow.
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Devlyn

I generally find facts to be pretty factual. People's claims, not so much.  ;)

Hugs, Devlyn
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RubyAliza

I was feeling a bit down because I got 5 inches depth from my surgery, especially after hearing all this talk about 9 inch deep vaginas. With more thought though, it's not much to feel bad about.

Even if we were to argue about the average depth of a cis-vagina (my human sexuality professor says it's 4-6 inches), the debate is itself wrong-headed, in my opinion. It's akin to guys arguing over whose penis is bigger. There are far more important factors to happiness in regards to one's sex life. I guess it depends on whether it's really that important to a post-op woman to have sex with a 10 incher haha :P besides, the average for a guy is like 5.5 inches, isn't it? I'd be more than happy to give an average guy an ego boost by his having half an extra inch on me (I like females more anyways!).

There's always anal too  >:-)

- Ruby

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Richenda

Hi Ruby,

I just posted something similar up and then saw your thread ;) https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,211246.0.html

Mmmm explains well how Suporn gets his depth: he basically pushes the scrotal skin through a pasta machine (  ;D ). Although this creates small holes, they subsequently heal: hopefully (some people report bleeding a long time after).

In practice and despite what a few people (e.g. Mona) might try and tell you, all the Thai surgeons now use scrotal tissue not just penile inversion. The differences are minor in that regard.

There's a fair bit of criticism that Suporn's results don't look like cis-vaginas. Whilst the latter have a lot of variety I guess it comes down to whether depth matters more than aesthetics? Personally I want it to look like a female vagina and for that reason I'm going to PAI.

I'm also really glad you mentioned anal because if I ever encounter someone with a penis that isn't satisfied with 5.5-6.0" insertion I will steer the thing elsewhere :D

Chen x

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AnonyMs

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 20, 2016, 02:53:51 PM
I generally find facts to be pretty factual. People's claims, not so much.  ;)

Well yes, but which are the facts?

Suporn did a paper where he said the average depth was 6.47". You'd think a physical limit would be a limit no matter who the surgeon was. I've no opinion as to whats correct, only pointing out it doesn't seem quite right.

http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/srspapers.aspx#depth
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TinaVane

Has anybody ever seen this pasta machine suporn uses ? [emoji102][emoji102][emoji102][emoji102]


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mmmmm

Quote from: Richenda on June 20, 2016, 10:16:34 PM
In practice and despite what a few people (e.g. Mona) might try and tell you, all the Thai surgeons now use scrotal tissue not just penile inversion. The differences are minor in that regard.

Enlighten and educate us! We are dying to know, and please dont hold yourself back, we appreciate each and every detail about that minor differences.
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Richenda

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 20, 2016, 10:35:12 PM
Well yes, but which are the facts?

Suporn did a paper where he said the average depth was 6.47". You'd think a physical limit would be a limit no matter who the surgeon was. I've no opinion as to whats correct, only pointing out it doesn't seem quite right.

http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/srspapers.aspx#depth

Yes and in that paper he claims that without his super-duper technique 40% of them would have had depths averaging 3.7 inches. Two things about that. First, those 40% must have had small penises and/or circumcision and second, the paper is now 15 years old. Other surgeons all over the world, including in Thailand, have moved on from then and most now combine penile inversion with use of scrotal tissue. Even if they don't run it through the pasta machine (no sorry Tina haha) they're still achieving better than 3.7 inch depths. See here for a discussion about alleged differences: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=203552.new;topicseen#new
(Edit: mmmmm ^^^^)

For me the benefits of an extra inch are far outweighed by the negatives, but others may feel differently.
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AnonyMs

Quote from: Richenda on June 20, 2016, 10:16:34 PM
There's a fair bit of criticism that Suporn's results don't look like cis-vaginas. Whilst the latter have a lot of variety I guess it comes down to whether depth matters more than aesthetics? Personally I want it to look like a female vagina and for that reason I'm going to PAI.

I don't think I've seen that criticism often at all. I think you can tell the difference, but its still better than any other surgeon I've seen results for. I've little opinion on PAI as I've not seen their results (the photos they publish are not good enough to work it out and I've seen no others).

I think Suporns results do look very good, and are generally well within natal variation, but there's various giveaways that its SRS. I think if you weren't aware of those you'd never realize.
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Richenda

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 20, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
I don't think I've seen that criticism often at all.

There are stacks of threads on here about it. If you search for Suporn you'll see.

But, hey, I'm not here to champion one place over another, especially about aesthetics. Safety's a different issue and there I have concerns about one place in particular.
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AnonyMs

Quote from: Richenda on June 20, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
Yes and in that paper he claims that without his super-duper technique 40% of them would have had depths averaging 3.7 inches.

My point is only that the Wikipedia article said that there's a physical limit around 11 to 12 cm, and its apparently not correct. Much as I like Suporn I don't think he can work around the laws of nature.
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TinaVane

#19
Quote from: mmmmm on June 20, 2016, 10:43:04 PM
http://cdn.thomasnet.com/ccp/30720834/221214.pdf

http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2007_Groups/group11/surgery.html

https://www.aesculapusa.com/assets/base/doc/doc107_rev-skin_mesher.pdf
Faints [emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33]
Oh my lawdy jebus
Off topic I heard this is what some Doctor do in Cali with hairline advancement to bring the hairline further up in hairline advancement surgery ... But eeeeekkkk


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