Trans is a sin?

[GlobalPessimum]

It's been a while since I've read the bible in it's entirety, but wasn't there a story in it about a Christian hiding themselves as a woman servant for a time?

I believe that's actually the subject of a Philippino manga:

https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=30729

Maid in Japan 

In order to be bought by a rich family, Narumi Inoue, hiding the truth that he is a man, goes to a girls' school. As a trainee, Narumi was sent to serve a girl from a rich family who hates maids (only weekends). Keeping the 'heart of treating/serving people,' Japanese maid, Maid in Japan, Narumi's battle will start? If it is found out that Narumi is a man, he will be castrated.

[Michelle_P]

Oh, and that one clobber verse that commonly gets rolled out by Christians against us - Deuteronomy 22:5 - has nothing to do with us. It is a prohibition against men dressing as women to avoid military duty, and a prohibition against women dressing as men to fight in the military - google John Gill's Exposition of the Bible on this verse to get a full explanation.

Hi, Eva Marie!

I love it when someone pulls Deuteronomy 22:5 out. First, I make a show of inspecting their clothes while asking where their tassels are. Then I might ask if they have battlements on their roof. And had he discovered his fathers skirt?

If they haven't lost their temper (0 intemperate sinner!) by then I discuss the wardrobe of desert nomads of 1500 BCE. Men and women wore the same tubelike undershirt, covered with the same poncho-like garment, fastened by cords. Not at all like Cecil B DeMille imagined, I suppose. If they are still paying attention I talk about the bad translation and the actual Middle Hebrew.

Some parts of the Bible have had a regular game of "telephone" played on them. Add in the interpolations from over-enthusiastic translators over the centuries, many of which conflict with the core message of Jesus, and the result is something I find ideologically imperfect.

"Love your neighbor as yourself, for the love of God. Except for those people over there; kill them!"

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )


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[Deborah]

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )

Matt 22:36-40: "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (RSV2CE)

Jesus was quoting the OT here but adding a new interpretation.  Neighbor in this context had meant fellow Jews only.  Jesus now said it included everyone.

Matt 5:43-48: You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (RSV2CE)

Despite Jesus giving this instruction, for most of Christian history and continuing today, most Christians more or less love other Christians in their particular sub sect and loathe everyone else, including Christians in other denominations.  Look up Jack Chick Catholic tracts for some examples. http://www.chick.com/m/catalog/tracts_byabc.asp


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

[DawnOday]

Dear sweet Lord forgive me for I have sinned .People can think what they want ,, but don't even think of taking my Lord from me.

Is that a quote from Jimmy Swaggart? Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/22/why-do-conservative-christian-clergy-keep-screwing-around.html
Don't hate Christians, hate there hypocrisy.

[GlobalPessimum]

Hi, Eva Marie!

I love it when someone pulls Deuteronomy 22:5 out. First, I make a show of inspecting their clothes while asking where their tassels are. Then I might ask if they have battlements on their roof. And had he discovered his fathers skirt?

If they haven't lost their temper (0 intemperate sinner!) by then I discuss the wardrobe of desert nomads of 1500 BCE. Men and women wore the same tubelike undershirt, covered with the same poncho-like garment, fastened by cords. Not at all like Cecil B DeMille imagined, I suppose. If they are still paying attention I talk about the bad translation and the actual Middle Hebrew.

Some parts of the Bible have had a regular game of "telephone" played on them. Add in the interpolations from over-enthusiastic translators over the centuries, many of which conflict with the core message of Jesus, and the result is something I find ideologically imperfect.

"Love your neighbor as yourself, for the love of God. Except for those people over there; kill them!"

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )


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All of this just says that you can't take the testaments literally, so you have to interpret it, and in the context of your respective historical era at that. But then- who is to do the interpretation? If every christian has their own idea of what the testaments say, christianity is not a religion, it's just a disjoint set of people who can't agree on anything. So there must be a central authority whose job it is to explain what the good book says. And like I say, you won't find any christian authority that says it's ok to be trans.

And even besides the opinion of any authority, the fact remains that the majority of christians agree that to change one's gender is not a christian thing any more than it is to sleep with your own sex- otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

So my question remains: if someone believes in something most christians do not, how is that person a christian?

[Michelle_P]

So my question remains: if one believes in something most christians do not, how is that person a christian?

Easy.  One declares oneself to be a Christian.

Then, members of the other sects bicker over whether or not one is actually a Christian, just as is done for Catholics, Lutherns, and Pentecostals focused on Mark 16:17-18.

Want a more formal approach?  Find a really hungry Christian seminary, preferably with an online presence.  'Enroll' and give them a big bequest in exchange for honorary ordination.  Next, publish your beliefs as a new revelation, and declare a schism.  File for tax-exempt status.   

[Deborah]

That brings new meaning to this verse.

Matt 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; (RSV2CE)


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

[Deborah]

I would like to add that none of what I write here means I think atheism is the answer.  It's just that that Judeo-Christian-Muslim understanding of God  cannot stand any scrutiny.  And as the past couple of generations demonstrate, its tendency to generate constant war and bloodshed is a pox on humanity.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

[Eevee]

I'm not Christian, but I do have a funny anecdote relating to this, since people have brought up the relationship between being trans and homosexuality relating to biblical interpretations.

My parents, who are very devout and strict Christians, actually had no problem at all when I came out as bi and dated a different gendered person than I had before. That surprised me. They blew a gasket, though, when I came out as trans. Actually, that gasket is still blown and they are still calling me a sinner for it.

No amount of biblical explanation on my part (because I do know the book very well) could change their minds.

I'm glad my Christian boyfriend could look past that.

[GlobalPessimum]

Easy.  One declares oneself to be a Christian.

Then, members of the other sects bicker over whether or not one is actually a Christian, just as is done for Catholics, Lutherns, and Pentecostals focused on Mark 16:17-18.

Want a more formal approach?  Find a really hungry Christian seminary, preferably with an online presence.  'Enroll' and give them a big bequest in exchange for honorary ordination.  Next, publish your beliefs as a new revelation, and declare a schism.  File for tax-exempt status.   

Sure, you can start your own sect and pretend you're christian, but then why choose "christianity"? You might as well call yourself a jedi, which at least has some cool movies to go with it (and let's be frank: as evil dudes go Satan can't hold a candle to Darth Vader).

Of course, if what you want is spiritual guidance, rather than tax returns, you're still stuck. And the truth is there's many people who sorely need some sort of spiritual guidance that only a strong community can offer them.

Also, Catholics, Lutherans and Pentecostals (from whichever side of the bridge) are all denominations of rather more than one person (particularly the first two). Indicentally they also hold negative views of homosexual behaviour, and of transitioning. They might disagree on the fine details, but you can rest assured there's some things they can all agree on.

[Sebby Michelango]

Being LGBTQIA+ is a sin according to the bible and many other religious books.
But here is other sins:

1. Tattoos
2. Eating shrimps
3. Wearing mixed fabrics
4. Adultery (Cheating)

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

5. Working at Sabbathday, the holy day. Too bad for the hospitals, cops and the firefighters.
Exodus 31:14–15 reads:

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

6. Masturbation
7. Eating pork
8. Getting remarried after a divorce
9. Gossiping
10. Females speaking in the church and the assembly
11. Certain haircuts and beard styles

Leviticus 19:27 reads:
"You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads . . ."

Leviticus 19:27 reads:
"neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

12. Mixed fabrics

Leviticus 19:19 "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

List: http://list25.com/25-normal-things-the-bible-forbids-but-we-still-do/4/

[Deborah]

Most of those things, particularly the food laws were abrogated in the New Testament.  So the argument will always fail.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

[Sebby Michelango]

Most of those things, particularly the food laws were abrogated in the New Testament.  So the argument will always fail.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Were the marriage "laws" removed too, or are they the remaining rules after the New Testament, since there are still many anti-LGBT+ people who's religious?

[Deborah]

The marriage laws about divorce remained intact.  The Catholics figured out a way to make money on that and charge people a fee for annulment.  Protestants generally just ignore Jesus' words altogether.   Funny how that works!  [emoji1305]


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

[stephaniec]

Is that a quote from Jimmy Swaggart? Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/22/why-do-conservative-christian-clergy-keep-screwing-around.html
Don't hate Christians, hate there hypocrisy.

no sorry it's a quote from the famous Stephanie the Blessed.

[RobynD]

You can be any sort of Christian you identify as including ones that do not hold scripture as inerrant. Never, Never let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Lily Rose]

 full disclosure: i am not a baptized christian and have never attended church on any regular basis, but my father was raised in a very "old testament" family. he has read the bible several times.

  my father i think had some problems in sunday school growing up nothing weird just questions that where answered with "thats just the way it is." his pasture was caught in a parked car with a married woman though. he didnt want to i guess force me into religion, he want me to chose it for myself. he would answer my questions though and we would talk about god and the bible. when i was growing that was my sunday school.
  i think what he explained to me about smoking (also tattoos) would cover a transgender person. he said that god gives everyone there own temple and if you harm it or alter it this is rejecting what he gave you, and that is a sin. i asked him but you smoke how will you get into heaven? and he told me that if someone excepts Jesus Christ as their lord and savior he will forgive your sins and they will be excepted into heaven. he died for our sins.
  this i think he got from reading the new testament several times after leaving home.

[ActionLiz]

  i think what he explained to me about smoking (also tattoos) would cover a transgender person. he said that god gives everyone there own temple and if you harm it or alter it this is rejecting what he gave you, and that is a sin. i asked him but you smoke how will you get into heaven? and he told me that if someone excepts Jesus Christ as their lord and savior he will forgive your sins and they will be excepted into heaven. he died for our sins.

I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

[Lily Rose]

I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

  i must concede, no argument from me. i only wanted to take the long i guess. to say if someone says someone else is sinning (possibly unforgivable). they may be a bit to old testament and this from what i was taught is not christian. "let he who is without sin..."

[Deborah]

The New Testament, specifically Paul, tells Christians to admonish each other for the other's sins.  It also tells them to eject the ones that do not listen to them.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves