Marketing the Androgyne I - Laying out your wares.

[Alison]

I think he meant there is a body sex binary, as in man or woman. There is no androgyne, or null body type as such (though something like Klienfelters syndrome probably comes close to a mixed, but somewhat dysfunctional type). Your gender identity or lack of identity as a null gendered person does not require you to look like it for it to be true. It would be true no matter what you look like, but it does make you want, or need, your external to match the internals.

I think that the existence of intersexed people (dysfunctional or not) really serves as proof that body sex isn't binary either.  Know what I mean?

I do agree that sex and gender are separate, they don't have to match for either or both to be true.

[cindybc]

Hi, to my experience so far when the subject of androgen comes up, it is usually followed by some type of arguments. I think one person has already been shown the back door to Susan's. I have been interested in the the subject of androgen purely because I believe I was an androgen for most of my life. It was only in the recent four years that I decided to get off the fence and go from male to female. Not that I could of done much except for in the past few years because I was not aware there were places one could go get evaluated in any which way what I was. Maybe an alien neuter  from Betelgeuse.

Cindy   

[Alison]

Hi, to my experience so far when the subject of androgen comes up, it is usually followed by some type of arguments. I think one person has already been shown the back door to Susan's. I have been interested in the the subject of androgen purely because I believe I was an androgen for most of my life. It was only in the recent four years that I decided to get off the fence and go from male to female. Not that I could of done much except for in the past few years because I was not aware there were places one could go get evaluated in any which way what I was. Maybe an alien neuter  from Betelgeuse.

Cindy   

I don't think this thread is quite an argument, but more of a discussion. 

The concept of 'androgyne' is a really confusing one, ask 10 people, and you likely will get 10 different answers.  This fact isn't doing much to further acceptance for those identifying as non binary or some form of androgyne.    So those of us who identify as such need to have some introspection and discussion to see where our similarities and differences lie, in order to form some sort of explanation for the rest of the world.

I think the motto should be not to exclude further,  thats where the arguments start, and feelings get hurt.

[Jaimey]

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21992.0

Here's the androgyne vs. genderqueer thread.  So let's leave this thread for the wikipedia entry and discuss terminology over there. 

[Alison]

Here's the androgyne vs. genderqueer thread.  So let's leave this thread for the wikipedia entry and discuss terminology over there. 

I see your point, but the thing is terminology is important to the wiki article hehehe 

[Jaimey]

I agree, it just got really tense in here earlier.  I do have one idea though.  How about we all submit paragraphs/sentences/sentiments on here?  That's what I meant about staying on topic.  To me this thread was specifically for creating an entry...and this is a discussion that definitely needs it's own thread.  That way everyone can be involved, not just those who read this thread.  Don't mind me too much.   

Mostly, I'm just really excited about becoming more public.

[cindybc]

Hi Jaimey
What was confusing for me was all those other labels I never heard of before. I am not disputing them but it does get a mite confusing when everyone one is discussing 3 or 4 subjects or other labels at the same time then out comes the defences like the quills on a porcupine if you get to close?. Tanks

Cindy

[Pica Pica]

good idea with the new thread, i always thought i was saying things that were agreed, seems i was very wrong. genderqueer part gladly rescinded, but talks still to be had.

Posted on: November 12, 2007, 11:24:51 PM
But to end my thoughts on this discussion...

I think one of the big problems Kaimialana has with what I have said is my use of assumption.

Assumption is one of the best intellectual tools there are, and it is the one I use the most. It can learn a whole complicated system quickly, it can speed all learning by a long way. It is often correct, and when not correct it often provides a useful model. If it weren't for assumption there would be no knowledge base, because all knowledge was assumed at some point. There would be no hypothesis, there would be no theories.

The only thing with assumption is that it can't argue. Not that it can't back up facts (many argumentative positions can't) but that it can't be close-minded enough to say, 'I am right.' Assumption is incredibly open minded, it says, 'I don't know for sure but...' Assumption is always ready to change it's minds when new data is added.

If you read my comments I have said things like, 'I have thought' 'I always felt', these are assumptions challenged by what you have said and changing. This is the sign of an incredibly open mind, and any suggestion that my mind is closed is a dumb one. I was on the process of re-accessing my information, I was describing what I had thought, how I had started, To be appalled at my close mindedness is just a misunderstanding, and I quick and sudden decision at that.

As for androgyne/genderqueer, I will try and explain the model I had created in the other thread.

[RebeccaFog]

knock off the chatter and get back to work everybody.

I guess if we wanted to be clear, we would have to agree that specific words are interchangeable or else string them all together like; androgyne/genderqueer/genderpoke/gender variant and so on.  Or, begin every article with the statement that "the term [term used] in this piece is meant to be entirely interchangeable with [alternate term 1], [alternate term 2], and so on.

I'm not saying we must do this, but that we must remember that our condition is unusual in that we have no standardized terminology to rely on and we don't want to misrepresent people who use different terminology and especially do not wish to alienate anyone.

Just a thought.


Rebio iguana

[cindybc]

Hi,

I posted this in another thread then decided to delete it and move it here where it belongs.

Before all the tension started around the subject of androgyny,  I was only curious about androgyny, and had no idea how volatile this subject can be. I haven't heard about this phenomenon until about two weeks ago, or was it three? It interested me and the reason is that I spent a good many years not facing up to being I was either gender and not caring or even willing to think about it. I was gender neutral, but I believe that after being gender neutral for so many years it was my way of hiding or retreating from being tormented into facing the truth and making a what I saw as a necessary decision to be one or the other.   

That was until 7 years ago before I made my choice to be Cindy.

Cindy

[Caroline]

Hi,

I posted this in another thread then decided to delete it and move it here where it belongs.

Before all the tension started around the subject of androgyny,  I was only curious about androgyny, and had no idea how volatile this subject can be. I haven't heard about this phenomenon until about two weeks ago, or was it three? It interested me and the reason is that I spent a good many years not facing up to being I was either gender and not caring or even willing to think about it. I was gender neutral, but I believe that after being gender neutral for so many years it was my way of hiding or retreating from being tormented into facing the truth and making a what I saw as a necessary decision to be one or the other.   

That was until 7 years ago before I made my choice to be Cindy.

Cindy

I'm not quite sure what the point of you posting this here is.  If you think androgynes are just people who are too scared to admit they're TS then I really don't think that's true in the majority of people here.  I faced the truth and transitioned m2f at 25 years old and came to the conclusion that living as a woman wasn't a lot better for me than living as a man.  I'm not the only person here who has been prepared to deal with the 'torment' of possibly being a m2f or f2m TS before deciding it wasn't right for me.  Fence sitters we're not...

[cindybc]

Hi Andrea.
I did not come to this thread to do any of what you accuse me of. If you have read closely at the start of my post that I, only for the first time heard about androgeny was about three weeks ago and some of the topics that were discussed about androgyny got me curious. I am here only as a student, not a teacher or to be a rabble rouser.

Sorry if I stirred up anything I can just as easily remove myself from this thread just as quickly as I came in.   

Cindy

[Caroline]

Hi Andrea.
I did not come to this thread to do any of what you accuse me of. If you have read closely at the start of my post that I, only for the first time heard about androgeny was about three weeks ago and some of the topics that were discussed about androgyny got me curious. I am here only as a student, not a teacher or to be a rabble rouser.

Sorry if I stirred up anything I can just as easily remove myself from this thread just as quickly as I came in.   

Cindy

Fair enough, you'll have to excuse me being wary around here...  No need to remove yourself 

[Mia and Marq]

Cindy, if you're here to learn about Androgynes, by all means, start asking questions. That's probably the fastest way to get the answers to what you're curious about. You can start a post in this section as many have done before.

You said that you had first heard about the idea of Androgyne just recently, how had you missed all of our previous posts here at Susans. We(Marq and Mia) have been here for over a year now and we haven't exactly been silent in our postings. I can think of a couple of topics about Androgynes that have shown up on some of the more mainstream areas in the last half year or so.


Mia and Marq

[cindybc]

Hi Marq and Mia.
First question and only just curious, are you two, well like partners, like in mates? Wing Walker and I are mates.  Have been for three years. As for my missing this thread on androgyne I did notice it before except on and off in one thread or another during the past four months after I first came back to Susan's when I ran across the link and got curious and rejoined after 7 years. being away. Anyway I saw some of the postings but just skipped them until I got curious, I get curious a lot. At least curiosity keeps one busy and keeps life interesting. 

After I left Susan's, 8 years ago, well you know what it's like, well maybe. Just that one thing can lead to another then ones interests change and of course there was my coming out at work seven years ago, that kept me busy some.  but I didn't really start to find out what androgyne was until about three weeks ago where finally it caught my attention and curiosity. Well anyway like I said I only just came here and learned I had many of the traits of androgyne.

The siting on the fence thing I was only referring to myself and no one else. In the end I was getting to be a very lonely person, do you know loneliness can kill? It kills from the inside out. That was what drove me from the fence right into Wing Walkers arms. I don't know what I should be but I knew I had to do something so I decided to go to being Cindy. I have learned what love is and I wouldn't trade the emotions sensitivities that have bloomed within me for any thing in the world. My spirit was awakened with the estrogen, but as far as the binary or the duality of sex goes I don't feel any and don't care for it. The surgery was successful but the sex drive just isn't there, I never had it. I most times just feel moot when it comes to duality of gender and sex goes.

Ok, if I'm in the wrong place then just kindly say so.

Cindy

[Mia and Marq]

Please Cindy, browse this section as much as you'd like. They're very happy to have another person reaching out to learn more. The Androgynes and Non-binary's sometimes get met with comments that attempt to invalidate their identities so they're a little jumpy currently. Make sure you state whatever might be misunderstood clearly and you won't get problems.

To answer your question about us, we're something called Two-spirited and Bigendered probably applies as well. Here is a post we constructed a couple weeks back with a good set of information in a question then answer style presentation. If you read through that and you need clarification, we'll be more the enthusiastic about addressing the new questions.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21444.0.html
As much fun as it would be to repost all that information, pointing you to the topic is more productive.

And again if you have any questions about us or any of the androgynes, you need only ask.

Mia and Marq

There's an extra little blurb about Two-spirited people in my signature but read that other post first and it will make more sense.

[cindybc]

Hi again Marg and Mia

I assure you I am quite harmless.
I believe I already know what two spirit is. I am of the Iroquois blood and grew up in and around an Ojibwa reservation and do have some knowledge of the the ancient North American Native traditions and spirituality. Two spirit means a person who has the duality of both souls female and male, but not one or the other but both and both can share the wisdom individually. It is said that a person with such a gift were great medicine among the people and they were given the position of Shaman. Well maybe the description of this legend varies from place to place.

Now this is bringing forth a lot of memories that had been buried within.

I will read the information in the link you have provided. Thank you.

Cindy

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 07:54:14 AMWell bless my ancestors  I believe they just sat up in their grave. I did have a good idea of what the elders were talking about, I now truly know who  Marg and Mia are well now wouldn't that just flap you. No offence, just come to a realisation about something. Whooo eee this thread is hot. "Hee, hee" Wow just amazing now this bit of information has brought me to a much closer understanding. My own two feet are planted in two different spiritual dimensions but at the same time they are as one. And the lessons begin, thanks.

I loved the playfulness part, I really enjoy a good hearty laugh.  It was my imagination and sense of humor that carried me through the tough years. My sense of humor was also what cut the ice with the folks around town after I came out presenting a female. If I had known this it may very well have turned out quite different. But I don't mind being a girl.

Cindy   

[Mia and Marq]

We feel if you can't play with someone that close to you all the time, you won't ever enjoy the simplicity of happiness for the sake of being happy. That is why the relationship we share is built upon trust and playfulness. We're certainly glad you had some previous experience with the concept and your enthusiastic response was a joy to read.

Marq and Mia

[cindybc]

Hi Marq and Mia
I just added something else in my post at the same time you were posting back. You so right about the simplicity of being happy and playful, geeeee Wing Walker calls it my Id. Well I love my Id it keeps me young. Well a lot of people out there called me weird so that it I just come t accept it and I have found that mischievousness goes well with weird.

Cindy

[Shana A]

I faced the truth and transitioned m2f at 25 years old and came to the conclusion that living as a woman wasn't a lot better for me than living as a man.  I'm not the only person here who has been prepared to deal with the 'torment' of possibly being a m2f or f2m TS before deciding it wasn't right for me.  Fence sitters we're not...

I transitioned m2f in 1993, did rlt, etc for a couple of years, and came to the realization that I wasn't really either gender. The primary difficulty I have isn't with my gender, it's more with society not recognizing me as who I am, as opposed to what my birth certificate says.

zythyra