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Dr. Christine McGinn vs Dr. Suporn SRS?

Started by moon, March 09, 2017, 01:47:34 AM

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Maybebaby56

#20
So, today I had my consultation with Dr. McGinn, and I would like to relay some of what we talked about.

Unfortunately, I was not able to take notes as Dr. McGinn went through a torrent of information very quickly, but I can recount a few comments. Any anatomical errors are mine, not hers.  I had to do this from memory after a 400-mile road trip.

First of all, let me say I did not find Dr. McGinn brusque or impersonal. If anything, she impressed me with how much she truly cares about her patients and the transgender community.  She is direct, yes, and very busy, but she was focused on me and wanted me to be as informed and prepared as possible for what SRS entailed.

I am listing these comments in no particular order:

1. Dr. McGinn made a point that she has very definite surgical objectives for both form and function of the neovagina. It's hard to separate the two, but I will first mention that she spent a significant amount of time explaining that this is not just plastic surgery.  You are not done once she has constructed your new vagina.  You will be taught not only how to take care of your vagina, but how your vagina should function, and how you can become orgasmic.  You should be able to function as a woman, and that includes sexual relations with your partner.  The hormone regimen is big part of it.  She does believe in prescribing testosterone, and managing your hormone levels.

2. More on form.  The Thai technique involves folding in the base of the scrotum inward, like the tongue of a shoe, to form part of the fourchette.  She does not like this approach.  For one, the fourchette does not come out shaped like a V but more like a U. Secondly, the entrance to the vulva is not as pink as it is in cisgender women when using this technique.

3. She does not find the "meshing" technique some Thai surgeons use to be a good thing.  Tougher recovery.  Much greater chance for scar tissue to form. Vaginal depth is *not* necessarily related to penis length. It has more to do with available space between the rectum and peritoneum.

4.  Every surgical outcome is individual.  She really hates that many SRS surgeons only post the best post-surgical results and not the pre-surgical pictures.  She says the photos on her site are typical, not necessarily "the best".

5.  Labia minora.  Labia minora are made from urethral tissue.  The amount of urethral tissue does *not* correlate with penis size. She said you can't tell until you dissect the penis. Some have less, and some have more.  There are three advantages to using urethral tissue in her opinion. For one, it is pink in color, so closely resembles what cisgender women look like. Secondly, she said the urethral tissue is also erectile in nature, and this is not a bad thing. During arousal, you will feel a kind of tightness, a kind of responsiveness in your vagina when sexually aroused.  Thirdly, the urethral tissue is secretory and aids in lubrication during arousal.  BTW, she has professional differences of opinions with Dr. Meltzer about this technique.  They have had direct conversations and they agree to disagree. 

6. Penile inversion technique vs. non-penile inversion.  She said this was a misnomer.  The penis is not actually "inverted". She discards almost all "penile skin" - not penile tissue, but penile dermis.  The corpus cavernosa is not used, but the glans and urethral tissue are used. The only thing from your penis that goes inside the neovagina is the nerve.  Again, she pays particular attention to aesthetics.  The insides of pussies are pink.  Your pussy will be pink inside, not brown.

7. General comments.  She doesn't like what she sees as the medical profession exploiting the transgender population.  She said there are dozens of new SRS surgeons that have sprung up over the last few years because they see the demand outstripping the supply and the potential for creating a lucrative money stream. She does not say this because they are taking away business.  She has more requests for her services than she can handle. She does over 100 SRS procedures a year, and has been doing it for ten years. She will come right out and tell you that the best SRS surgeons in North America are Meltzer, Bowers, Brassard, and herself, with Meltzer having more experience than anybody. She feels the newer surgeons cannot give adequate medical support in the event of complications. When things go right, everything is fine, but they simply don't have the experience to fix things when they go wrong.  She runs what she describes as a "boutique" medical practice that specializes in transgender health care, not just plastic surgery, although she is a board-certified plastic surgeon.

8.  I went with McGinn.  I really liked her.  I really trust her.  My SRS date is August 8th.

Hope that helps answer some questions. Again, this was from memory, so any errors in details are mine alone.

With kindness,

Terri

EDIT:  fixed several errors, with thanks to KayXo
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on April 03, 2017, 09:14:15 PMYou will be taught not only how to take care of your vagina, but how your vagina should function, and how you can become orgasmic.  You should be able to function as a woman, and that includes sexual relations with your partner.

I had my surgery with Dr. Brassard. None of that information was provided to me but I figured it out on my own pretty quickly, exploring my vagina, etc. I was orgasmic by week 5 without testosterone, just on estrogen.

QuoteShe does believe in prescribing testosterone, and managing your hormone levels.

I recently started taking a small amount of Androgel. I'm 11 yrs post-op. In terms of libido, I honestly can't say it has made a difference. Progesterone, on the other hand, has, especially in terms of how much I lubricate. Maybe I don't take enough T to see a difference.

QuoteVaginal depth is *not* necessarily related to penis length. It has more to do with available space between the rectum and peritoneum.

I think you mean to say perineum, the space between the scrotum (or vulva in ciswomen) and rectum. Peritoneum, on the other hand, is the membrane that forms the lining of the abdominal cavity.

QuoteLabia minora.  Labia minora are made from urethral tissue.  The amount of urethral tissue does *not* correlate with penis size. She said you can't tell until you dissect the penis. Some have less, and some have more.  There are two advantages to using urethral tissue in her opinion. For one, it is pink in color, so closely resembles what cisgender women look like. Secondly, she said the urethral tissue is also erectile in nature, and this is not a bad thing. During arousal, you will feel a kind of tightness, a kind of responsiveness in your vagina when sexually aroused.  Thirdly, the urethral tissue is secretory and aids in lubrication during arousal.

Yes, yes and yes! I can vouch for all of the above. Is the urethra mucosal? Can anyone confirm?

QuoteThe insides of pussies are pink.  Your pussy will be pink inside, not brown.

Yup!  ;D

QuoteMy SRS date is August 8th.

I feel she is a great choice. Best of luck and congrats!
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

HappyMoni

I agree with your assessment of Dr. McGinn's demeanor. She is serious about her outcomes. Her office is very responsive as well.
Had fun meeting you at dinner Terri.

Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
  •  

Maybebaby56

Quote from: KayXo on April 03, 2017, 09:41:51 PM
I think you mean to say perineum, the space between the scrotum (or vulva in ciswomen) and rectum. Peritoneum, on the other hand, is the membrane that forms the lining of the abdominal cavity.

Thank you for catching this, Kay. I meant perineum.

Quote from: KayXo on April 03, 2017, 09:41:51 PM
I feel she is a great choice. Best of luck and congrats!

Thanks again, Kay. You are a wonderful resource on this forum.

~Terri
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

Maybebaby56

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 03, 2017, 10:09:51 PM
I agree with your assessment of Dr. McGinn's demeanor. She is serious about her outcomes. Her office is very responsive as well.
Had fun meeting you at dinner Terri.

Moni

Thanks, Moni.  You are truly a treasure. I am glad we met.  I hope we meet again!

With kindness,

Terri
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

Rachel

I am going to Dr. McGinn's Friday. I have gone there 8 or so times since my GCS. They have really taken tremendous care of me. I have labiaplasty 5/15 and If I am fully healed from GCS they will give me a BA date. 

They prescribed T for me. I took the 1 month supply over 3 months (with 20% remaining in the container) and with my doctor we agreed I should not take it because of how I felt about T.  My T was 80 ng/dl when tested. Papillion's objective was 40 ng/dl.

I think you made a good choice with McGinn.
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.
Dr. Thomas in 2020 FEMLAR
  • skype:Rachel?call
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Rachel Lynn on April 04, 2017, 06:06:08 PMThey prescribed T for me. I took the 1 month supply over 3 months (with 20% remaining in the container) and with my doctor we agreed I should not take it because of how I felt about T.  My T was 80 ng/dl when tested. Papillion's objective was 40 ng/dl.

I personally think the goal shouldn't be a number but rather that the person feels and looks good without compromising health or femininity. Some don't need T despite very low levels. Some may do fine with lower than 40, others may need even more than 40. Also, total testosterone doesn't account for the fact that some of it is bound to SHBG so that if your SHBG is high (like it is with me, over 200 ng/ml), much of it is inactive. It also depends on hormonal environment so that with higher concentrations of estrogen, 40 T may not do enough, etc.

My doctor just prescribed me a very small dose and suggested I go from there, deciding on my own if I need more or less, judging by how I feel and virilization symptoms (oily skin, body hair growth, etc.).

Before starting T, my total testosterone was between 3 and 12 ng/dl, VERY low. My free T was undetectable. I asked for some to help with energy, motivation/drive and general well-being. So far, so good for me. Everyone is different. :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

jentay1367

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on April 03, 2017, 09:14:15 PM
So, today I had my consultation with Dr. McGinn, and I would like to relay some of what we talked about.

Unfortunately, I was not able to take notes as Dr. McGinn went through a torrent of information very quickly, but I can recount a few comments. Any anatomical errors are mine, not hers.  I had to do this from memory after a 400-mile road trip.

First of all, let me say I did not find Dr. McGinn brusque or impersonal. If anything, she impressed me with how much she truly cares about her patients and the transgender community.  She is direct, yes, and very busy, but she was focused on me and wanted me to be as informed and prepared as possible for what SRS entailed.

I am listing these comments in no particular order:

1. Dr. McGinn made a point that she has very definite surgical objectives for both form and function of the neovagina. It's hard to separate the two, but I will first mention that she spent a significant amount of time explaining that this is not just plastic surgery.  You are not done once she has constructed your new vagina.  You will be taught not only how to take care of your vagina, but how your vagina should function, and how you can become orgasmic.  You should be able to function as a woman, and that includes sexual relations with your partner.  The hormone regimen is big part of it.  She does believe in prescribing testosterone, and managing your hormone levels.

2. More on form.  The Thai technique involves folding in the base of the scrotum inward, like the tongue of a shoe, to form part of the fourchette.  She does not like this approach.  For one, the fourchette does not come out shaped like a V but more like a U. Secondly, the entrance to the vulva is not as pink as it is in cisgender women when using this technique.

3. She does not find the "meshing" technique some Thai surgeons use to be a good thing.  Tougher recovery.  Much greater chance for scar tissue to form. Vaginal depth is *not* necessarily related to penis length. It has more to do with available space between the rectum and perineum.

4.  Every surgical outcome is individual.  She really hates that many SRS surgeons only post the best post-surgical results and not the pre-surgical pictures.  She says the photos on her site are typical, not necessarily "the best".

5.  Labia minora.  Labia minora are made from urethral tissue.  The amount of urethral tissue does *not* correlate with penis size. She said you can't tell until you dissect the penis. Some have less, and some have more.  There are three advantages to using urethral tissue in her opinion. For one, it is pink in color, so closely resembles what cisgender women look like. Secondly, she said the urethral tissue is also erectile in nature, and this is not a bad thing. During arousal, you will feel a kind of tightness, a kind of responsiveness in your vagina when sexually aroused.  Thirdly, the urethral tissue is secretory and aids in lubrication during arousal.  BTW, she has professional differences of opinions with Dr. Meltzer about this technique.  They have had direct conversations and they agree to disagree. 

6. Penile inversion technique vs. non-penile inversion.  She said this was a misnomer.  The penis is not actually "inverted". She discards almost all "penile skin" - not penile tissue, but penile dermis.  The corpus cavernosa is not used, but the glans and urethral tissue are used. The only thing from your penis that goes inside the neovagina is the nerve.  Again, she pays particular attention to aesthetics.  The insides of pussies are pink.  Your pussy will be pink inside, not brown.

7. General comments.  She doesn't like what she sees as the medical profession exploiting the transgender population.  She said there are dozens of new SRS surgeons that have sprung up over the last few years because they see the demand outstripping the supply and the potential for creating a lucrative money stream. She does not say this because they are taking away business.  She has more requests for her services than she can handle. She does over 100 SRS procedures a year, and has been doing it for ten years. She will come right out and tell you that the best SRS surgeons in North America are Meltzer, Bowers, Brassard, and herself, with Meltzer having more experience than anybody. She feels the newer surgeons cannot give adequate medical support in the event of complications. When things go right, everything is fine, but they simply don't have the experience to fix things when they go wrong.  She runs what she describes as a "boutique" medical practice that specializes in transgender health care, not just plastic surgery, although she is a board-certified plastic surgeon.

8.  I went with McGinn.  I really liked her.  I really trust her.  My SRS date is August 8th.

Hope that helps answer some questions. Again, this was from memory, so any errors in details are mine alone.

With kindness,

Terri

EDIT:  fixed several errors, with thanks to KayXo


Hi Terri...Dr. McGinn just sounds like the gold standard to me. I would love to hear what kind of quote you received from her. If you'd feel more comfortable, You can PM the info to me and  of course, I would keep it  to my self. On a different note, I saw Dr. Z today and I would suggest the military discount he afforded you was real as I was quoted a good bit more than you were for what appears to be roughly the same work. Love to talk more in private if you're interested.  23 hours of electrology faces me tomorrow...ugh!
Anyways,  All the best to you always. J
  •  

Maybebaby56

Hi Jentay,

I would be glad to exchange PMs with you. I am running around this morning, but I can shoot you a PM this afternoon/evening.

Blessings to you,

Terri

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

AnonyMs

Not quite sure if this is ok or not, but if you want to see some results for these surgeons search for A collection of links to photos of SRS results. Its not a link, so I guess we'll see,
  •  

SadieBlake

QuoteVaginal depth is *not* necessarily related to penis length. It has more to do with available space between the rectum and peritoneum.

Quote from: KayXo on April 03, 2017, 09:41:51 PM

I think you mean to say perineum, the space between the scrotum (or vulva in ciswomen) and rectum. Peritoneum, on the other hand, is the membrane that forms the lining of the abdominal cavity.

The peritoneal wall would absolutely define a limit on depth. The perineum is external.

Depth is still related to the skin available from the penile shaft + some of the scrotal skin. If that's not sufficient then it can only be made up from almost grafts taken from elsewhere on the body, usually the thigh.

The advantage of inverting the penile skin  seems to me to be that it's innervated, which I don't think a graft can ever be. ** I verified this with Dr Wittenberg **.

Excess urethral mucosa is used by various docs in different ways. Satterwhite and Wittenberg use it to form inner labia, I think that's the most common use in the use. It's not what the surgical team at BMC is doing and so I think also not the method used by the docs they observed at UMich and Baltimore (names escape me). I think Oates at BMC mentioned using it near the neocltoris. There's a surgeon in Germany using it as part of the neovaginal wall.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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AnonyMs

Quote from: SadieBlake on April 08, 2017, 03:27:38 PM
The peritoneal wall would absolutely define a limit on depth.

I'm not sure that's quite correct, assuming peritoneal wall and peritoneal reflection are the same thing. This is from Suporn's site

Maximum vaginal depth attained with the scrotal skin graft beyond the original position of the peritoneal reflection (Douglas Pouch). A minimum of 6.0" (15.25 cm) vaginal depth is guaranteed immediately after surgery in all cases of SRS. The modal average is 7.0" (17.8 cm) depth.
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/srstechnique.aspx
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Lancastrian

Disclosure: I was a Suporn patient

It isn't just about which skin type is used. Two related questions are:

1. What hair removal is needed? Suporn nurses punch the follicles so no hair removal is needed.

2. Will the graft retain its blood supply? One possible downside of the Suporn technique is that the graft is separated from its original blood supply. Some surgeons see this as a potential risk of graft failure. The advantage is greater flexibility in where the vaginal opening is created so that Suporn can make the most anatomically correct choice.

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Miss Clara

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on April 03, 2017, 09:14:15 PM

3. She does not find the "meshing" technique some Thai surgeons use to be a good thing.  Tougher recovery.  Much greater chance for scar tissue to form.

There are advantages and disadvantages to using the meshing technique.  Yes, when used, there is potential for scarring that requires using a special dilation technique and recovery is usually longer.  Realize though that meshing is only used when the amount of scrotal tissue is insufficient to achieve a sufficiently deep vagina.  Girls who transition pre-puberty generally have very little penile and scrotal tissue to work with.  By using the meshing technique, Suporn can avoid using skin grafts from elsewhere on the body.  I have a friend who had GRS with Suporn and meshing was not done because there was adequate scrotal tissue available.
  •  

Miss Clara

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on April 03, 2017, 09:14:15 PM
6. Penile inversion technique vs. non-penile inversion.  She said this was a misnomer.  The penis is not actually "inverted". She discards almost all "penile skin" - not penile tissue, but penile dermis.  The corpus cavernosa is not used, but the glans and urethral tissue are used. The only thing from your penis that goes inside the neovagina is the nerve.  Again, she pays particular attention to aesthetics.  The insides of pussies are pink.  Your pussy will be pink inside, not brown.

I'm totally confused by this.  Penile skin is certainly used in one way or another.  In the penile inversion technique it is used to line at least the first few inches of the vaginal canal.  The glans is cut down to form the clitoris in all methods and the penile dorsal nerve HAS to be left in tact for clitoral sensitivity.  It makes no sense to use the dorsal nerve to fashion the neo-vagina canal.  It cannot be cut or its length shortened.  But it has to be placed somewhere.  Could McGinn be placing it along the top of the vagina on the way up to the clitoris? 
  •  

Brooke

Quote from: Clara Kay on April 08, 2017, 10:14:42 PM
There are advantages and disadvantages to using the meshing technique.  Yes, when used, there is potential for scarring that requires using a special dilation technique and recovery is usually longer.  Realize though that meshing is only used when the amount of scrotal tissue is insufficient to achieve a sufficiently deep vagina.  Girls who transition pre-puberty generally have very little penile and scrotal tissue to work with.  By using the meshing technique, Suporn can avoid using skin grafts from elsewhere on the body.  I have a friend who had GRS with Suporn and meshing was not done because there was adequate scrotal tissue available.
I did not know that about Suporn. I assumed the meshing was always used so that the increased depth could be achieved. I had assumed that was one of the larger factors in why Suporn is able to get an average of 7" rather than the 5.5" I see in the states more commonly.
  •  

AnonyMs

The analysis of surgeons techniques is interesting, but personally I'm not really clear on how it relates to results. I'm not confident we even have the correct basic information about what the surgeons actually do and why they do it.

Instead I like to look at photo's of post-op SRS results. You can find a bunch of photo's for these surgeons if you look at my previous post. Its not ideal as there's not a large number, but its better than nothing, and its something you can judge for yourself rather than relying on others opinions.

I think its also fairly well established that for whatever reason Suporn is really good at depth regardless of the starting material, and that his recovery is double that of USA surgeons (he says it himself, so I guess it must be true). You definitely have to travel to Thailand, but you also get a very high level of aftercare. He's known for that and his free revisions.

Suporn doesn't require hair removal (its on his site), but a small percentage of women do have hair post-op. On the plus side due to his technique its in a location that's easily removed (according to one women who had it and wrote about it).

  •  

Miss Clara

I attended a presentation by Dr. Marci Bowers a couple of years ago.  She said that most GRS surgeons are very secretive about their methods.  That certainly is the case for Dr. Suporn whose website has not been updated in years.  A friend who went to Suporn confirmed this "close to the vest" stance concerning the details of his methods.  She asked him straight out how her operation was done, and never got a satisfactory answer.  She obtained 7" depth and her recovery has been rapid because the meshing technique was not needed in her case. 

In the non-penile inversion method the vaginal tube is formed completely from scrotal skin which has been scraped of all fat and follicles and then meshed if necessary.  There is little risk of hair growing deep inside the vagina.  The vaginal lining is sutured around a form (e.g., a condom filled with gauze), and inserted into the space created between the rectum and the bladder/prostate as far in as the peritoneal reflection, a point beyond which the vagina cannot extend.  A patient's unique anatomy puts a limit the vaginal depth achievable.  The neo-vagina/stent is then stitched in place around its opening (introitus) and to a flap of skin (perineum) which has had hair follicles removed by cauterization.  It's this area (the bottom entrance of the vagina) where hair sometimes returns, and some girls have this small area treated by electrolysis prior to GRS surgery to ensure that the hair is removed.  I, a Chettawut girl, didn't, and a few hairs have grown back.  My electrologist has offered to clear these hairs when I'm ready.  Frankly, they are of little bother to me.

  •  

Lucie

Quite interesting discussion.

Quote from: Clara Kay on April 09, 2017, 10:07:52 AM
The neo-vagina/stent is then stitched in place around its opening (introitus) and to a flap of skin (peritoneum) which has had hair follicles removed by cauterization.

I assume you mean perineum.
  •  

Miss Clara

I forgot to mention that Suporn's offer to do free revisions is not unique.  Chettawut also does free revisions.  It's something to consider, but realize that travel to/from Thailand and lodging expenses for a couple of weeks is on your buck.  These expenses are not insignificant if you live in the U.S.  A 20+ hour flight in coach is no picnic either, especially with a sore bottom.  I chose to have my labia majora revised here in Chicago at my expense despite Chett offering to do it for free.  The cost difference was minimal.

From my experience seeing the results of various GRS surgeons, the results are all over the map.  To categorically say that you'll have a more realistic looking vulva going to Suporn is simply not true.  You might think that a surgeon's method determines the outcome, but that's not the only factor at play.  A patient's anatomy is so important.  It's too bad there isn't a provision here at Susan's to post photos of results.  It would go a long way toward helping girls decide which surgeon is best for them.
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