Is stealth becoming more and more out of reach with increasing trans awareness ?

[alex82]

I'm pretty sure I pass 100% of the time. In any kind of medical or legal situation where I have to put myself (lots of other health issues and recently got my new passport with correct gender marker) every person does a double take.

There is a lot of discussion about passing early on here. I wonder how many had male fail before starting any transition?

For most of my adult life I've had male fail with strangers about 80% of the time. Didn't matter what I wore, if I hadn't shaved, even filling out new patients info with Male being selected- 30% of the time they office staff would change it to Female. Still don't. I didn't understand how I could be in a nice button up shirt, tie, slacks and still get ma'amed. It makes me wonder how much of this is body language. I had to always intentionally lower my voice on the phone, otherwise I would be accused of not being me.

I think what I don't understand is how the facial hair, short male haircut, male clothing etc was completely ignored 80% of the time in public situations. Anyone else experience this pretransition?

I never did understand what it was about me that made people gender me as Female


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, all that.

Flattering for what it confirms on some level. Embarrassing for the fuss it creates when you are compelled to correct it.

As for automatically failing security questions on the phone to discuss your own accounts, that's just plain inconvenient.

[alex82]

Yepp, I prefer cis women of 1950/60s more than today's for that reason. But, woman in SoCal are generally good with keeping up and looking their best. I wish the whole country was like socal, women here in Denver <seem like> either they came back from a long hike or they are about to go on one. Lol

You prefer how women were in the 1950's? Well women didn't. Which is why that's no longer the acceptable standard.

Moderator edit: to adjust an accusatory insulting phrases.

[Karen_A]

You prefer how women were in the 1950's? Well women didn't. Which is why that's no longer the acceptable standard.

While I agree no woman should long for the society of the 50'sand early 60's, the unambiguous gender roles/standards (as well as the lack of T* awareness)  DID make passing easier, even if it also made life harder in other ways.

I spend a number of years arguing with TERFS before the term was around. They saw our tendency to follow stereotypes as aiding/reinforcing their oppression.

I tried very hard to explain that while transsexualism is not primarily about social roles and clothing, makeup etc, because of our insecurities and desire for acceptance as women that is the only way many know how to try and get that acceptance... Looking for approval as girls do was well as trying to find what wrks for them... AT FIRST... Over time we learn ropes, get more confidence and most get past the excesses and settle in the same broad range of gender expression that most women do.

I tried to explain that the most transsexuals visible to them are either those early on at their most insecure...

I don't think any of them ever believed it... They thought transsexualism was all about attraction to gender role and trappings, that if there were not enforced gender norms that transsexuals would not exist...

I know deeply from my own experience that  is simply not the case... But it's hard for them (or most people actually) to really understand.

- Karen

[kittenpower]

I'm too stealth for this topic, too stealth for this topic, too stealth when I'm disco dancing 

[alex82]

While I agree no woman should long for the society of the 50'sand early 60's, the unambiguous gender roles/standards (as well as the lack of T* awareness)  DID make passing easier, even if it also made life harder in other ways.

I spend a number of years arguing with TERFS before the term was around. They saw our tendency to follow stereotypes as aiding/reinforcing their oppression.

I tried very hard to explain that while transsexualism is not primarily about social roles and clothing, makeup etc, because of our insecurities and desire for acceptance as women that is the only way many know how to try and get that acceptance... Looking for approval as girls do was well as trying to find what wrks for them... AT FIRST... Over time we learn ropes, get more confidence and most get past the excesses and settle in the same broad range of gender expression that most women do.

I tried to explain that the most transsexuals visible to them are either those early on at their most insecure...

I don't think any of them ever believed it... They thought transsexualism was all about attraction to gender role and trappings, that if there were not enforced gender norms that transsexuals would not exist...

I know deeply from my own experience that  is simply not the case... But it's hard for them (or most people actually) to really understand.

- Karen

You and me both.

I've had these conversations and debates too.

But what I referred to <as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize <natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.

And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.

To have someone who wasn't <natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.

You find<much of this on> the Internet .


Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.

Moderator edit: Edited to remove  trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic

[Ypsf09]

It got a lot easier for me as time went by.  Not that I ever felt dishonest (I've always been clear about my truth), but early on I was always just kind of expecting the shoe to drop. 

It never dropped. In part because I never dropped it. It's like... it's like a hot potato, this narrative. Disclosure is like passing someone a hot potato. Without warning. It generally isn't done to relieve someone else, but to relieve ourselves. In other words, there's something every bit as selfish about disclosure or non-disclosure.

We get so used to telling a story of change, as opposed to a story of constancy, a story of essence. People don't really believe in change. They know it happens, but change is something that tends to be avoided as much as possible, with some changes accepted to avoid other changes entirely. So play to this! Make your narrative one about the same woman (the big change was that you used to be a little girl) over and over again making her choices to get through the world. 

Confidence is pretty crucial to a life of practicing non-disclosure. 

(I highly recommend the semantics of "practicing non-disclosure" to "stealth" in this respect, actually.  The latter implies that you're hiding something, that you're a spy, that you don't really belong.  "Practicing non-disclosure," on the other hand, is simply a statement of praxis, what you are actively doing, and it doesn't actually depend on what other people think at all. Plus, it's kind of ironic. Anyways, I know "stealth" is the accepted nomenclature in our community, but I still greatly disagree with using the term.) 

It's not the Bambi face that saves the day, by the way.  In the end, it's an impeccable voice that saves the day. Voice is something that can reverse a clocking, first off, leaving people stumbling for an apology (which is rather telling of how cis people actually consider misgendering).  Second, and more important, it's through our voices that we socialize, tell stories and narratives, and develop long-term relationships. 

I was in line to vote last November, and it took a couple hours, which gave me time to look at people, as I'm wont to do.  Out of maybe 200 women, one had an unusual face so to speak, and she was kind of tall, maybe 5'8" or 5'9", but her voice was standard-issue female, and her stories were of her husband and kids.  Another woman was 6'4" or 6'5", very heavy set, but all the proportions were right and again the voice was a woman's voice.  On the other hand, what really made me do a double-take was a very short woman with a big belly and a very low and deep voice; I don't think a single word eclipsed 160Hz.  I looked and looked at her again upon hearing this voice, but there were nothing else to see but another woman.  Still, she's the one who really made me pause.

The face of Bambi can crumble if the voice of Lurch comes out of her mouth. 


Okay.

Why are these women being picked out by some apparently "lucky" random dude engaged in ->-bleeped-<--spotting?  Better to ask, how did their pictures and likenesses end up getting put into this arrangement?  This is a narrative problem, not a physical one. 

In the real world, people see the whole person in action, and it's not a game of whack-a-mole. They hear someone speaking, and it changes everything. We have time to get know people. Conversations happen. Again and again.

This is what living a woman's life is really like, not posing on the internet for others to judge.

Yes, I feel the same. It does get better with time. I agree that sometimes disclosure is a selfish act to mostly relieve ones own self especially when one has reached a stage where they are undeniable female both physically, emotionally and spiritually and where the recipient has absolutely no idea about your history. I have been told few times that it was unnecessary and things would have just been better without it. Ultimately for me, I think my self confidence in general and also  related to non disclosure would improve tremendously once I am postop. Looking a certain way on the outside and being preop makes me very uncomfortable on many levels.

As far as changing the story to being a little girl as opposed to a little boy, that's something that's happened naturally from hormones. My mind thinks of my old self as some else and has automatically conceived a narrative that only includes a girl from start to finish. And because this has happened naturally without a conscious effort, I don't feel guilt of it.

I can't agree with the voice thing anymore. I have seen this so many times, where tgirls just focus on their face/body and not so much on their voice and overall aura or do it the wrong way where it's not seamless, normal and natural. Kimberly Westbrook(trans YouTuber) is a very good example how voice/overall behavior can overcome height, Browbone and other issues.

Thinking again, maybe the reason behind those girls getting picked out is not really what it seems to be in the video.

[Ypsf09]

But, I know that voice and it still speaks to me. It's speaking to me now, saying you are a deluded windbag and everyone knows everywhere.

I hadn't gone out to a bar in ages before last November, but on the way out I get all dressed up and we went clubbing, but before I got some tequila in me, I was nervous as heck. I made my BF take me around cause I didn't have a hat. For some reason, I think my hair totally sucks, cause its only at my shoulders, and if I put the hat on I think I pass better. My BF was like "No one is going to know whatever you do, unless you tell them, but the hat...no." He hates that hat. But, now, I got one of those scrunchi simple bun thingies. It's bascially a mesh bagel that you pull your hair thought. WOW! I should be their spokeswoman cause I love it. I have the perfect bun now and after years of trying, I have finally done something awesome with my hair. Yeah, it's basic. But, basic can be beautiful.

Moderator edit: Images were removed from the post quoted. I edited the quote to match.

Girl,

Hopefully nothing I said made that voice speak like that to you. I am very familiar to that voice as well as it often haunts me too. Hopefully someday it will be gone forever and then we will be liberated.

I love hats too, specially the winter beanies. This is what I have rocking all winter. I have 6 in different colors. Lol

http://imgur.com/XZfRBg7

[Ypsf09]

You and me both.

I've had these conversations and debates too.

But what I referred to <as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize <natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.

And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.

To have someone who wasn't <natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.

You find<much of this on> the Internet .


Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.

Moderator edit: Edited to remove  trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic

I apologize for coming across like that. It was meant in a light and humorous way. Also what I was referring to is the 1950/60s look, not about how women were treated in society. I wouldn't want to be a women let anyone a trans one in those times. But what I wish is that 1950/60s hair/makeup attire (see below link) was still considered normal in today's times for ones that want to look like that.

http://m.imgur.com/a/QhB3C

Nevertheless the socal comment was my opinion as a women( nothing to do with being a transsexual one), thats who I relate with and just wish the whole country was like that( more in a light hearted humorous way). Doesn't mean I dislike the hippie/granola/plain type, I just don't relate with them. Also because having  lived in Boulder/Denver(and travelled in Midwest), I know how extremely judgmental that type can be towards anyone that is not like them or doesn't share similar views. For some reason, hyper feminity bothers them and they look down upon. I just find the socal stereotype more easy going, fun, lively and interesting. Someone that takes care of them and tries to bring out the best in them both physically and mentally. Now I know this is a generalization, but it's based on my personal experience. There is a place there for everyone, wether u want to look sexy or not, plastic or natural, pretty or not pretty, glamorous or casual.

So yes, I don't dislike them for not not wanting to be sexy/pretty, but can't relate with their dogmatic/small minded discriminatory views on women that are/want to be sexy/hyper feminine. Simple live and let live.

Again I didn't mean it as trans vs cis.

Also not sure, where u are reading about transgirl claiming to be better than cis women and boasting about their model figures/Uber sexiness. Almost any transgender forums I read online, we only talk about how we aspire to be like them. Never have I ever read anything about us being better than them physically, only wishes that our transition takes us in their realm.

Just like cis woman, trans women come in all shapes/sizes, some are frumpy and some well put together. If anything, the transwomen that are able to acheive all that look wise, I feel are more grounded/humble, because it wasn't handed to them with a silver spoon. They worked long and hard for it. For me and my friend, every cosmetic surgery that enhances our physical looks(making us more feminine) also enriches us on the inside. It makes us more compassionate, at peace, emphathetic, forgiving and just a better human overall.



Again, just to summarize I think you misinterpreted my comment as it being cis vs trans when I was expressing my personal preference for one stereotype of woman over the other.

Thanks



Moderator edit: editing due to cleaning up confusing left overs and removing aggressive phrases.

[Karen_A]

Yes, I feel the same. It does get better with time. I agree that sometimes disclosure is a selfish act to mostly relieve ones own self especially when one has reached a stage where they are undeniable female both physically, emotionally and spiritually and where the recipient has absolutely no idea about your history.

I have heard that argument from a few people over the years(and they all seem to know each other!)...
It has always struck me to be somewhat self serving when specifically taking about teh case of a life partner.

If you think it would matter to them the partner, beside teh effects on teh TS,  keeping that secret from them will ALSO  have SOME effect on the relationship dynamic (usually not positive) ...

In such cases if it comes out unexpectedly down the road it could mess up both lives (and it does happen). The feelings of betrayal can run deep...

While the TS might be willing to risk that for themselves, do they really have the right to make decision for their SO?

I fully understand the the strong desire not to tell and the reasons behind it and that for TSed they can be very emotionally powerful...

That  is why IMO, in that specific case (a life partner), that reasoning needs to be suspect.

That said, for those that have the option, they have to decide for themselves how to deal with it  ... they need to be very honest with themselves and truly consider deeply the potential ramifications and specifics of the situation for BOTH of those involved.

- Karen

[Ypsf09]

I have heard that argument from a few people over the years(and they all seem to know each other!)...
It has always struck me to be somewhat self serving when specifically taking about teh case of a life partner.

If you think it would matter to them the partner, beside teh effects on teh TS,  keeping that secret from them will ALSO  have SOME effect on the relationship dynamic (usually not positive) ...

In such cases if it comes out unexpectedly down the road it could mess up both lives (and it does happen). The feelings of betrayal can run deep...

While the TS might be willing to risk that for themselves, do they really have the right to make decision for their SO?

I fully understand the the strong desire not to tell and the reasons behind it and that for TSed they can be very emotionally powerful...

That  is why IMO, in that specific case (a life partner), that reasoning needs to be suspect.

That said, for those that have the option, they have to decide for themselves how to deal with it  ... they need to be very honest with themselves and truly consider deeply the potential ramifications and specifics of the situation for BOTH of those involved.

- Karen

Well yeah great minds think alike. Lol just kidding. For some of us, the goal of a gender transition isn't just to transition.  Our dream is to fade seamlessly into the fabric of society as a member of our authentic gender.  It's to be totally and completely accepted as what we appear to be, with no hint of our unique pedigree.  It's to leave behind all of the stigma and the hardships associated with being transsexual. Maybe I am a little weak and hence want stealth, not as strong as some others who are more comfortable with their complicated history and others knowing about it.

As far as telling potential partners, I am still preop and still not sure where I stand about not disclosing to potential partners(once I am post op).

Goal would be to make someone  fall for me first and then disclose.  But I guess it all depends on how successful the rest of my transition goes.

Thanks

[LiliFee]

You and me both.

I've had these conversations and debates too.

But what I referred to <as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize <natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.

And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.

To have someone who wasn't <natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.

You find<much of this on> the Internet .


Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.

Moderator edit: Edited to remove  trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic

There are transpeople who rattle other people's cages. Especially older transwomen who come out in their fourties or fifties have the capability of doing so. Some of them have been living for a while being treated as men, and thus could have internalized sets of male socialization. It might be that when these people start transitioning, they're more visible than those who have finished transition, or those who're younger.

So, you've got a visible group of transwomen who are at the beginning of their transitions. These people are still women! Their brains still are, and so is their gender and it's expression. In proclaiming their femininity for the first time, they can go far, but wouldn't you after having had to hold your heart for 40+ years?

The point is, TERFs argument in a very different way. A TERF will never (!) see transwomen as women simply on the basis that this is their belief system. They argue on the scientifically disproven basis that transgender people have a mental disorder which has no basis in reality/neurology. Most of all, they proclaim a shared femininity, a common denominator which makes them 'different'. Both these lines of argumentation solely rely on biased opinions, not on any kind of fact. They're assumptions that fuel their fears, and are not of rational nature.

I get it you're trying to find the middle line, but I urge you to be considerate of your words. I even agree with you that transgender people and especially transwomen can say and do things that are offensive to some cis-women. But in arguing these actions <removed here and posts earlier because of triggering responses> support the case of TERFs, you're treading on dangerous grounds.

Moderator edit:

[LizK]

  LOCKED FOR REVIEW

[Mariah]

 
Thread will remain locked.
Some choose to go stealth and others don't. Everyone makes those choices for different reasons and that results in many issues that results not only from how we feel about our own transitions and what is possible, but from what we believe ourselves and others should do. Now having said that be understanding of others choices and beliefs. No bashing, judging, attacking or ridiculing. Please keep in mind TOS 5, 9, 10, and 15. Thanks
Mariah