Suicide - Sin or No

[Kaeren]

Kaeren,

Our particular emotional state at any one time is not the plumb line deciding what "sin" is.  Emotions are not a reliable standard for anything - because they change so much from day to day, even moment to moment.  From a Judeo/Christian perspective, sin is anything/everything that does not line up with God's word.

So, while I believe that suicide will not necessarily send you to "hell", it is still sin...  in that the taking of a person's life is murder - which is certainly listed as a violation of God's law - you know, Thou shalt not kill/do murder.  Murdering one's self is still murder.  Saying that, one must also know that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  I emphasized ALL, because that means the playing field is level.  No one is better than another ... we are all in the same boat.

Hopefully clarifying, and most definitely thoughtfully...  LGF

Little green fly,

I understand there is a judeo/christian perspective. However there is also a reality perspective.

There is something unclear to me. I mean, God's word.  I don't seem to understand that.  And I also don't believe people who tell me they have a direct phone line with God and that they are the superpowers that know the truth.  Because he/she doesn't seem to answer.  I could imagine an answer of course but that would be my own emotions then of course.  Yes, they do change all the time.  As I don't want to play God I prefer to listen to what he/she has to say.  On the other hand, he/she seems to answer immediately because there is a reality we live in. Strangely enough this reality is all about killing.  I'm not talking about ten rules or so you have to live by. I'm talking about reality. We are here to die, to be killed by time.  Who is the big sinner killing us ?  And right you are, it is our obligation to fight that with every bit of energy we have.

If killing yourself is a sin.  Couldn't you say that in reality the world around you killed you.  You only pulled the trigger but in order to get that far a long way was gone.  Who made the sin then ? The one who started it or the one who finished it ? You could even kill yourself by neglecting your reaction to an aggression.

Some old woman of 75 years old killed her husband recently in my country.  You know why ? He bullied her for the last 50 years and she simply couldn't take it anymore. On a recent day he attacked her to kill her but she reacted this time.  Did she commit a sin ? She finally killed her predator.

===============

I have another question.  It bothers me a lot. Maybe you could give some advice what to do ?

I happen to be handicapped.  My handicap is to have a conscience, and not even a small piece of sadistic pleasure in hurting others.  It's just not my thing.  I have even a bigger handicap.  I work with a psychopath.  I suppose we fit together as we are each others opposites.  If you see her ( yes the psychopath is a woman ) you'd think she's an angel.  Small lady also.  However, make no mistake, the only emotion this person has is one of self-pity. She married one of her family.  Genetically close to herself.  I find that an important matter to understand the behavior.  This person I work with is a top manager with strong political links and part of the elite financial international environment.

This is my life and it scaring. I should have seen it before but now it is too late. Do you have any advice to give me ? How do I escape ? How do I survive ? Staying would be killing myself and that is a sin.

In the world I live in killing is all around. Every moment is killed to be replaced by the next moment. I believe we call it life.  Life and death seem to be the same while being opposites. It's confusing.

Kaeren.

[littlegreenfly]

Kaeren,

Wow, lots of stuff there.  I appreciate your honesty and your questions.  I would really like to take this discussion, if you're willing, a little more one-on-one through PMing.  If you are comfortable with that shoot me a note.  Maybe we could go through each of your thoughts and questions together and really unpack things - on both sides... I certainly want to understand you and your perspective, as well as sharing mine.

Available... hopefully a new friend,
lgf

[Starr]

I've suffered from severe depression since I was a child and thought about suicide at age 10. I don't think I ever heard anyone say suicide was a sin until I was in junior high and some of my Catholic friends mentioned it. My church just never said anything about it one way or the other. At least not that I ever heard. I've given the matter much thought over the years and have contempated suicide many times (but never actually attempted it). Each time I felt that God would understand if I did something like that while in the midst of so much pain. Looking at that sort of despair when there seems to be no end in sight is overwhelming. And yet each time, it was like He reminded me that there was hope and that I didn't have to resort to suicide. He's always given me the strength to hold on just a little longer, and I'm thankful for that.

[Elwood]

Hmmm. I think that it is often considered a sin. But see, religion is about cultism. Spirituality, however, is about one's interpretation of religion. You don't have to follow the heard like a dumb sheep to believe in God, Jesus, etc. or to love them.

Is God against suicide? I don't believe so. Just like I don't believe God is against masturbation or homosexuality ("wasting the seed"). I think that is all stuff the church has added to the Bible. I don't think the Bible is an accurate source anymore. I prefer the scrolls as a reference. The scrolls of which the Bible originated from in their original Hebrew, Greek, etc. formats.

I don't believe in sin anyhow, so what a bunch of religious folk believe doesn't matter to me. If I want to make Kamakaze, I'll make my Goddamn Kamakaze. I hope despite my lack of belief I have contributed some useful insight.

[Suzy]

I think that is all stuff the church has added to the Bible. I don't think the Bible is an accurate source anymore. I prefer the scrolls as a reference. The scrolls of which the Bible originated from in their original Hebrew, Greek, etc. formats.

Hey big guy!

Just to let you know, I do have copies of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures in their original languages, along with all of the variants archeology has been able to find thus far.  And yes, I do read them all.  I don't necessarily disagree with where you came out (see my comments above), but it is not because the church or anyone else added to the Bible.  It is very easy to check that today. 

Peace,
Kristi

[Elwood]

Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.

As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.

[RebeccaFog]

Do you mean like the scrolls that the lawgiver passed down to Zaius people?

I'd like to get my hands on those scrolls.

Which reminds me, doesn't one of the ancient laws say 'thou shalt not kill'?  If so, should it be presumed that one of the things that thou shalt not kill, is thyself?

[Suzy]

Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.

As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.

As a matter of fact, I do, Elwood. 

And as far as being complete, I think that it might surprise you how complete things are.  Of course the original autographs are nowhere to be found anymore.  This is a long and complicated subject, but the scholarly community has been very diligent to develop with is called the critical apparatus, which list all known possible variations to the texts from literally thousands of sources nowadays, weighted as to probability of accuracy.  These can be anywhere from small papyrus fragments to complete vellum scrolls like the Dead Sea Scrolls.  The new (5th) edition with the latest updates to the Hebrew scriptures is due out soon, and many of us are excited.

If you are interested, this is what I happen to use:  (I've included some links for you to follow up if you want.)

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia

Novum Testamentum Graece / Nestle-Aland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece

Kristi

[Elwood]

I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.

An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?

[Lisbeth]

I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.

An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?

No, the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are instructions to the Qumran community about how to run it's affairs, instructions for daily living, jurisprudence, and so on.  The only part they considered to be scripture were the same books as in the Old Testament.

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia

Novum Testamentum Graece / Nestle-Aland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece

I'll show my age by saying I remember being excited when those two were first published.

[RebeccaFog]

a legitimate ancient scribe is more likely to sue over copyrights.

[Elwood]

I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.

An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?

No, the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are instructions to the Qumran community about how to run it's affairs, instructions for daily living, jurisprudence, and so on.  The only part they considered to be scripture were the same books as in the Old Testament.

There are parts that include scripture, therefore they are relevant. The instructions, if they are words of God, are still words of God. It was interesting how those Scrolls say a lot of Earth shattering things that the Bible doesn't.

[Suzy]

I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.

An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?

Have you actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls?  I have.  Both in Israel and here is the US.  I have also been to Qumran to see where they were unearthed and visited the ruins of the Essene community there.  The most remarkable thing about them is how amazingly consistent they are with the Hebrew test the Hebrew Masoretes were able to preserve.

As far as telling which texts are accurate and which are not, this is a really deep subject.  Some of the criteria are the comparison with other known texts, the setting in which it was found, and the difficulty of the reading.  This would take a very long time to explain, and is an art, rather than an exact science.  However, two things must be said:  First of all, the variants are there for virtually anyone who wants to look and make an informed decision.  Second, almost none of the variants are substantive in nature.  In other words, few of the variants would significantly change the meaning of the text, no matter which was chosen. 

Feel free to pm me if you want to talk about this more.

Kristi

[Elwood]

Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.

As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.

god hebrew and greek is MISERY

i had 8 graduate hour requirements of hebrew and i did 12 of koine greek, being a glutton for punishment.   i still remember some of the greek, the hebrew is long, long gone



(hands ancient scribe business card, offers to represent for 30% contingency)

That is wicked awesome.

Posted on: July 19, 2008, 08:01:59 PM

I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.

An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?

Have you actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls?  I have.  Both in Israel and here is the US.  I have also been to Qumran to see where they were unearthed and visited the ruins of the Essene community there.  The most remarkable thing about them is how amazingly consistent they are with the Hebrew test the Hebrew Masoretes were able to preserve.

As far as telling which texts are accurate and which are not, this is a really deep subject.  Some of the criteria are the comparison with other known texts, the setting in which it was found, and the difficulty of the reading.  This would take a very long time to explain, and is an art, rather than an exact science.  However, two things must be said:  First of all, the variants are there for virtually anyone who wants to look and make an informed decision.  Second, almost none of the variants are substantive in nature.  In other words, few of the variants would significantly change the meaning of the text, no matter which was chosen. 

Feel free to pm me if you want to talk about this more.

Kristi

Yes. They were in California and I was in there for hours reading what I could. Unfortunately, on their displays they had English texts. I was hoping they'd also have a clear version of the actual text as well. Their translations were pretty close to accurate, but still simplified and specified for the English language. It was pretty disappointing.

It's amazing that the Scrolls are in the condition they are in. They were taped together some time after they were unearthed (the morons!).

Some of the variants are actually different enough that many traditional religious views and rituals are thrown out the window.

[RebeccaFog]

Well, I'm sticking with the lawgiver's version.  He ain't steered me wrong yet.

[Suzy]

Some of the variants are actually different enough that many traditional religious views and rituals are thrown out the window.

Such as?

[Elwood]

I'd really have to look back at my resources. I apologize for the inconvenience because I'm sure you really had a curiosity on what I had to say (as you seem to study the stuff). However, I am 500 miles away from all of my books. I can't possibly remember any of it off the top of my head... 

[cindianna_jones]

I think that I would never wish to argue about this (Bible editions, that is) with Kristi! She knows her stuff. However, if we ever do get together Kristi, I would love to have you tell me all about it.  I'm a sponge when it comes to ancient history.  I eat it up!

I try to catch all the documentaries that are put out.  It is fascinating stuff.  Think of it.... this is some of the first recorded history.

Cindi

Cindi

Posted on: July 19, 2008, 08:49:00 PM

if i recall, the isaiah scroll is almost word for word accurate with modern texts.

That.... and parts of the LDS church's "Book of Mormon" .... 

Cindi

[Lisbeth]

if i recall, the isaiah scroll is almost word for word accurate with modern texts.

You are correct, and that is a tribute to how meticulous the people who made all the copies were.  Some of the marginal notes in the Masorah are for the next set of copyists to use.  They contain things like, "this verse contains exactly X letters and the middle letter is Y."  If after copying the verse, the count and middle letter didn't match, the new scroll went into the lumber bin to be used as fuel to heat the Synagogue.

[Suzy]

That.... and parts of the LDS church's "Book of Mormon" .... 
Cindi

LOL

Well let's see, I have to dig out my Urim and Thummim and check it out.

If you are interested in some of the comparisons, including the Isaiah text mentioned, here is a link you might wish to follow up on:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266

Peace,
Kristi