Suicide - Sin or No

[androgynetg]

Suicide a sin?, I have no idea as I stopped believing that reconstructed-hebrew-death-cult a long time ago. I do believe it isn't a good idea as you can't come back if you change your mind about it later ..

[Suzy]

and, i hear, an ancient list of ingredients for "smores."

Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian.  Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.

[cindianna_jones]

Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian.  Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.

I'm not convinced that anyone ever wrote in it either!

Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity.  I think he made them up.  But hey... .what do I know?

Cindi

[tekla]

I think he made them up.

I'm pretty sure its all made up.

[Suzy]

Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity.  I think he made them up.  But hey... .what do I know?
Cindi

Actually you know quite a bit.  Sorry about the rather tongue-in-cheek humor.  Hope it wasn't offensive.  It wasn't meant to be.

Kristi

[cindianna_jones]

Actually you know quite a bit.  Sorry about the rather tongue-in-cheek humor.  Hope it wasn't offensive.  It wasn't meant to be.

Kristi

Oh... you are too kind.  There are certain things that will blow my stack.  But no one will ever know what they are. Because I refuse to pass that feeling on to someone else.  I just cool off and let it pass.

But Kristi, I doubt that anything you would ever say could get me upset.  I found your urim and thummim comment pretty funny.

While I have no wish to offend anyone with their personal beliefs, I feel that a bit of light humor is never out of line.

I fear that we have steered way off topic though in this thread.  What was it? .... oh yes...

Is suicide a sin?

I don't believe in the concept of sin.  You reap what you sew.  You don't get an education, you don't get a job.  You steal from a bank you go to jail.  You steal from millions of consumers, you get a $20 million bonus.  The world is not fair.  Life is not fair.  Bottom line is you just have to make your way the best you can.

If you do yourself in, then the world is a poorer place without you. Of all the people that I knew who killed themselves, there was not one that wasn't a feeling and caring person.  What sadness to lose a beautiful life.   I am saddened that we can't find a way to preserve the precious when there is so much ugliness in this world.

I do contemplate the end of my life from time to time.  It is uncomfortable to talk about here.  But I realize that there is much to do.  I believe that I have made a difference somewhere somehow and that I may continue to do the same.  There are people who love me and I love them.  I can't leave all that. 

Cindi

[cindybc]

Hi Cindi, maybe I am just wasting my time again, lately I feel like I'm wasting my time submitting posts and getting nothing in return. Your posts have never failed to arouse my interest, I love reading them. As usual, this post has brought tears to my eyes.

the concept of sin.  You reap what you sew.  You don't get an education, you don't get a job.  You steal from a bank you go to jail.  You steal from millions of consumers, you get a $20 million bonus.  The world is not fair.  Life is not fair.  Bottom line is you just have to make your way the best you can.

If you do yourself in, then the world is a poorer place without you. Of all the people that I knew who killed themselves, there was not one that wasn't a feeling and caring person.  What sadness to lose a beautiful life.   I am saddened that we can't find a way to preserve the precious when there is so much ugliness in this world.

I do contemplate the end of my life from time to time.  It is uncomfortable to talk about here.  But I realize that there is much to do.

My own feelings put into words by a cyber sister. But I will never take my life with my own hands, there is just to much to live fore. But what could have happened to Wing Walker a couple of days ago I can't say I didn't entertain the idea. I have no desires to living alone.

You don't need to feel that you have to respond to this post, no one else does anyway.

Cindy

[cindianna_jones]

You don't need to feel that you have to respond to this post, no one else does anyway.

Cindy

You know doll, that I wonder about such things as well.  I can't tell you how much I write.  Some of my drivel ends up in the forums here.  I was reminded recently by a dear friend that she doesn't seem to get responses either from her writings.  Yet she told me that many people read, understand, and appreciate these posts.  I know that you have been a comfort to me on more than one occasion.  So, know that you do make a difference.

Cindi

[cindybc]

Hi Cindi, after all the crap you been through and you still come up swinging. Such is the life of a gentle warm hearted lady. I have on many occasions have related to what you submitted in your posts. Sweets, I will pray with all my heart that such will be that you are never alone. I fear that it is this very possibilety that could end our lives.

There is no need and it is senseless to commit suicide but on the other hand I am terrified of ending up alone. I can thank Great Spirit that I am healthy as an ox hmmmm..... well a very small ox.  What you have shared with us I have treasured, sister, and have learned much from those writings. I especially loved the science one and all you have shared about your small observatory. I do read your posts, hon.

Have a wonderful day!

Cindy     

[vanna]

Hey now Cindy

thats twice in two days you have been down, your posts are some of the most welcome here and mean alot to alot of people i know for sure, i love to read other peoples life experiences it helps relating to my own and the hard steps you haveto take to move on with one's own transition.

Please dont stop posting or feel your not valid, relevant, ignored or even loved on this board. Its hard sometimes with so many voices and so many people crying out for help to hear what everyone is saying but i have found it sometimes takes 20 posts just to get one person to hear what your really trying to say.

I hope wing walkers feeling better and hey now smile your like a ray of sunshine in what is usually a very grey world.


As for suicide what girl hasnt felt alone enough to contemplate that at one time in their lives i know i have, thank god for The Samaritans.  For my part its only recently i have managed to find a shred of support but to takes ones own life yes a sin but not to religion, its a sin to take your own life and everytime someone does the world dies just a little bit more.

Vanna X

[cindybc]

Thank you Vanna. You asked for it, here is one of my stories of a time past that is still quite real and alive in my mind. And please don't worry, I don't think I will be going to far hon, girl scouts honor. It was just the last couple days have kind of stressed me out some. I don't stay in a depressive mood or stay down for very long, to boring, I love playing word games and humor and dancing on the side walk when Wing Walker and I go for walks, unfortunately I guess she won't be doing the walks for a while. I ain't going to dance on the sidewalk for a while but I am not going to give up my walks either though  But I do so love making Wing Walker laugh, and anyone else who might happen to be around as well, like the girls at Tim Horton's coffee shop, in the stores, gas stations, bank  at work, don't mater much to me where, but goodness gracious isn't it wonderful when you can put a smile on someones face, that makes my day. 

I guess my gift for humor I inherited from both my mom and dad, I had a pair of comedians for parents. My mom was slap shot humor and my dad.... well jack Benny style, you know, and he was quite capable of dry humor as well. You know he just loved the good old Irish songs, The father to my future foster daughter would occasionally bring his bag pipes with him, my mom just loved the pipes. Bill played the pipes and my dad sang, what a duo. but neither my mom and dad were Irish, they were both originally from Quebec spoke french fluently and there was also a mix of Iroquois on my moms side. Anyway  at these parties my sister would occasionally join my dad in a sing along. Sometimes they would serenade the folks at the party by singing Bing Crosby songs or Frank Sinatra and such. Oh my, I beleive my dad could have given Fred Estair a good run for his money in a dance-athon. My dad was also an excellent figure skater, me? Not so good, I would spend more time on my little butt on the ice then I did on my skates. 

When my moms friend Clare came to the parties I was on her lap no sooner that she connected with the couch. I sometimes would get a brush from the bathroom and spend goodness knows how long brushing and styling her hair. I was around six years old then, but I realy did a good job of her hair for a six year old. When I was done doing the hair brushing I would sit beside her and talk her ears off then fall asleep siting up leaning against her side. Mom would ask Clare if she would like to be relieved of me, but she would not hear of that, so I guess kid and mommy's lady friend kind of hit it off pretty good. I had someone else to suck up to.  I felt secure and I truly loved and I trusted this lady.

"Ahhh childhood wonders huh," I don't think I forgot one moment of it, even vaguely remember when my mom held me in her arms when I was little she had my head on her shoulder, I could hear her heart pumping in the large vein in her neck and feeling the softness of her hair and smelling its fragrance. Well enough of that huh, must let this thread return on topic. But anyway hon, I have just shared another small slice of my childhood days with you. See, this helps me to accept who I am, not remembering who the previous me was I have gradually been replacing this no longer existing person with a red headed be-freckled little girl missing a front tooth. That is who I was and that is the little girl that grew up to be me...... well, fortunately, with all my teeth. "Hee, hee, hee"

Cindy       

[Lisbeth]

Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian.  Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.

I'm not convinced that anyone ever wrote in it either!

Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity.  I think he made them up.  But hey... .what do I know?

Cindi

Sure they exist.  You just have to see them with eyes of faith.  Just like the EDS eldars saw the bras... er... golden tables that Moroni gave Smith.

But that's just my jaded sense of humor, and noone should take offense at it.

[vanna]

Thank you Vanna. You asked for it, here is one of my stories of a time past that is still quite real and alive in my mind. And please don't worry, I don't think I will be going to far hon, girl scouts honor. It was just the last couple days have kind of stressed me out some. I don't stay in a depressive mood or stay down for very long, to boring, I love playing word games and humor and dancing on the side walk when Wing Walker and I go for walks, unfortunately I guess she won't be doing the walks for a while. I ain't going to dance on the sidewalk for a while but I am not going to give up my walks either though  But I do so love making Wing Walker laugh, and anyone else who might happen to be around as well, like the girls at Tim Horton's coffee shop, in the stores, gas stations, bank  at work, don't mater much to me where, but goodness gracious isn't it wonderful when you can put a smile on someones face, that makes my day. 

I guess my gift for humor I inherited from both my mom and dad, I had a pair of comedians for parents. My mom was slap shot humor and my dad.... well jack Benny style, you know, and he was quite capable of dry humor as well. You know he just loved the good old Irish songs, The father to my future foster daughter would occasionally bring his bag pipes with him, my mom just loved the pipes. Bill played the pipes and my dad sang, what a duo. but neither my mom and dad were Irish, they were both originally from Quebec spoke french fluently and there was also a mix of Iroquois on my moms side. Anyway  at these parties my sister would occasionally join my dad in a sing along. Sometimes they would serenade the folks at the party by singing Bing Crosby songs or Frank Sinatra and such. Oh my, I beleive my dad could have given Fred Estair a good run for his money in a dance-athon. My dad was also an excellent figure skater, me? Not so good, I would spend more time on my little butt on the ice then I did on my skates. 

When my moms friend Clare came to the parties I was on her lap no sooner that she connected with the couch. I sometimes would get a brush from the bathroom and spend goodness knows how long brushing and styling her hair. I was around six years old then, but I realy did a good job of her hair for a six year old. When I was done doing the hair brushing I would sit beside her and talk her ears off then fall asleep siting up leaning against her side. Mom would ask Clare if she would like to be relieved of me, but she would not hear of that, so I guess kid and mommy's lady friend kind of hit it off pretty good. I had someone else to suck up to.  I felt secure and I truly loved and I trusted this lady.

"Ahhh childhood wonders huh," I don't think I forgot one moment of it, even vaguely remember when my mom held me in her arms when I was little she had my head on her shoulder, I could hear her heart pumping in the large vein in her neck and feeling the softness of her hair and smelling its fragrance. Well enough of that huh, must let this thread return on topic. But anyway hon, I have just shared another small slice of my childhood days with you. See, this helps me to accept who I am, not remembering who the previous me was I have gradually been replacing this no longer existing person with a red headed be-freckled little girl missing a front tooth. That is who I was and that is the little girl that grew up to be me...... well, fortunately, with all my teeth. "Hee, hee, hee"

Cindy       

Hi Cindy

awwww god bless you, thats such a lovely set of memories, enough to make me cry which isnt hard i know but still i really really enjoyed reading that and although i somewhat lack any similar memories it did remind me of when i was 8 years old. My auntie Phylis used to come visit from Ottawa and always made a big fuss of me calling me her little marine and hugged me at every opportunity. She sadly passed away 2 years later but still its these memories that are so precious.

Your parents sounded like such nice people and i hope you still have that level of love in your life and they managed to pass on the same caring and laughter, there isnt anything better to make a person smile i can so relate to that. You sound like lifes really as it should be, too short for sadness and laughter and happiness are the best medicine's

Thanks hun, really made my day coming home and reading this post.

Hugs to you both

Vanna X

[RebeccaFog]

I have heard that a chimpanzee in a Japanese zoo disarmed his guard this week. Soon all of your ancient scrolls will mean nothing, for the one true lawgiver is soon to appear before us and we shall receive the only scrolls that matter.

[Ell]

sumpin's a Lil' fishy smelling' here.

wasn't it Rebis who had a crush on Zira from the original Planet of the Apes?

[Suzy]

I have heard that a chimpanzee in a Japanese zoo disarmed his guard this week. Soon all of your ancient scrolls will mean nothing, for the one true lawgiver is soon to appear before us and we shall receive the only scrolls that matter.

Hey, no monkey business!  This is a respectable place!

Kristi

[greeneyedgirl]

I think Rebis is absolutely correct here:

I agree with the minister that suicide is not a sin.  Calling it a sin is to steal the dignity of a person whose suffering was obviously never resolved.

I'm more concerned that someone is in such a state of dispair that they feel like they have no hope--no out--than suicide. Whether or not it's sin is so far beyond the reality that someone is dealing with some MAJOR problems that has brought them to a point that their entire world is closing in around them.

This site is a support site, so let's do what we can to support each other and leave the theological debates to the church leaders. In the end, the grace of God outshines them all.

Thanks Dave, you make a very good point here.  Having been ready to die, having had a plan, a means, and even the desire to get up off the floor and carry that plan out makes it utterly unimportant what anyone but I was thinking.

Now, also not to engage in theology, but to simply share my feelings and experiences I want to talk about October of 1961 in a hotel bathroom in Denver.

I was raised a good little Catholic girl under Vatican I.  Went to church every Sunday, came from a well off, successful family and had a pretty good life until my life went horribly, horribly wrong.  What I remember of church from those days was EVERYTHING was a sin.  Yeah, Santa made a list and checked it twice, good little girls and boys got presents and the others didn't get coal, they got an express ticket to hell.

I hit a rough patch.  And then some.  Why isn't important.  But I also had a plan then, and followed it.  I considered the prospect of going to hell for sin and remember thinking, and feeling, that I was already in hell, so I might as well get it over with.  I had a very flippant, who the hell gives a damn if it is a sin because I was already in more pain than I could handle.  I was hoping, praying, and banking on just being death and feeling NOTHING anymore.  I was in so much agony, and had so little control over my own life, that suicide seemed like the one final thing I could control about my life.

I very clearly remember everything I was thinking and feeling as I placed that knife and pulled hard.  The pain of the knife felt good I was in so much other pain.  I had control of something finally!!!  I did it a second time just to be sure.  I remember the cold I felt as I was slipping into the black of unconsciousness.

I also remember the shock I felt when I woke up with a start and couldn't figure out what went wrong.  I remember being stuck in the bathroom with my dead body for several days before they found me.  I remember the feeling of the ANGER that hit me like a train.  The anger I'd been internalizing which turned into life threatening depression and eventually cost me mine.

If it's a sin, and the claimed express ticket to hell, then I'm pleased to report I screwed THAT up so well.  In 1964, well I wound up with this body, and the journey I've been on now.

If you even have to ask the question, and worry about it being a sin, I'd suggest another question for you.  "Why can't I get someone to HELP ME?  How do I get a doctor to help me balance my brain chemistry so I don't think dying is such a good idea?"

Okay, that was two.  But ask them.  I fought taking meds until I was ready to die.  I wanted to die, needed to die.  I hadn't yet remembered my last lifetime in that kind of detail yet.  Believe it or not, my sister actually cajoled me into getting me on meds.  She made me promise to give her a month, just one month, and if at the end of that month I still wanted to die, she'd let me.  And while you're giving me a month, take one of these every morning and don't ask what they are until the end of the month.

Two weeks later I was terrified at what I was finding, feeling, how my view had changed, and what I'd nearly just done.  My life STILL SUCKED.  Nothing about my life had change except that it was two weeks later and I'd taken that little white pill every morning like she asked.  That crazy, drug pushin' menace had saved my life.

Depression CAN AND WILL kill.  It cost me my life once, almost twice, and cost my husband his life.

If you are worried about it being a sin, take my word for it, you're brain is playing tricks on you.  Get to a doctor, ASK for help, and for goodness sake, take the pills for a while.  See if anti-depressants can or will make a difference?

Doesn't matter if it's a sin or not, fight for your own health.  You are so worth it!

Sam

[Chaunte]

This thread continues to trickle on...

As a result of this thread, I started a poll in the POLL section here at Susans about suicide.  The data should be posted by 7/28/08.  If you haven't answered, I would ask you to take a look at it.  I will say that the numbers look rather interesting.

Chaunte

[JENNIFER]

If I may add my 2 cents, I think that if one follows the Christian ethic literally, then maybe it IS a sin, as long as you accept the accepted view of what sin happens to be.

I have always interpreted the Christian texts thus.......God has given mankind 'free will' therefore does taking what is ones own stealing as in life itself?  Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal etc could be taken many ways and I recall my former boss ( Jehova's Witness ) telling me that suicide is a ticket to damnation and an eternity in the fires of hell.

On a person level, there have been frequent times when I considered suicide to escape the agonies that I endure following my strokes, something only stroke survivors would understand and never at any time had I a thought as to whether it was sinful.

I know little of the texts of Islam and Judaism but tentatively assume them to have similar teachings given the links between the faiths and realise Hinduism respects all life.  For myself, I consider life to be a journey and we make of it what we will.  Some of us will sail through without problems, others will have difficulties along the way such as with my medical history and also with our gender difficulties.

I have heard from other transfolk of people choosing to kill themselves because of their transgender feelings and the lack of care and understanding etc and I feel for them but I find myself continuing my colourful journey in life, yes, strokes, transsexualism included and ask 'normal' people how intersting and varied their own lives are when they offer abuse and hatred towards me?    If I could add another 2 cents, suicide would be such a waste and maybe yes, it could be considered a sin to the deity of choice 

[greeneyedgirl]

Interestingly enough in Hinduism, everything is about Karma and what you bring with you to your next life.  So it's almost like "hit points" that you get from life to life.  In Hindu thinking, if you end your own life early, you have to start the cycle of lives over, and lose any built up good karma.

Judaism has no hell, but Oy, have we got guilt!  The amount of guilt you'd get for taking you own life, makes Catholics look like posers, wannbe's when it comes right down to it.  Ever had your mother hounding you about guilt?  Jewish mothers are worse, take it from me, I know... 

You make a good point though.  Frankly though, anyone close enough to be worrying the sin aspect would probably be much better served by a caring and compassionate doctor who will really help.

Sorry to hear about your stroke issues, I lost a friend young to a handful of strokes, and I wouldn't wish what she went through after her first one on anyone.  How are you doing now?

Sam