Do most Mtf transgenders pass after 2 years on hormones?

[Angélique LaCava]

I'm not questioning my passing, just want to know if the average Mtf transgender passes usually after 2 years on hrt.

[jfong]

Don't think anyone did any studies on that one yet. But I can consider myself one of the lucky ones who did.

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[RavenMoon]

The first thing people see is someone's face. Hormones don't change the bones in your face, but they do soften your features a bit. So it all depends on how feminine someone's face is before they start.

I'm not on HFS yet, but I already know it won't help me enough. So I'll need FFS.


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[Wednesday]

I think not. At least not perfectly/flawlessly/with flying colors.

IMHO most MTF after 2 years on HRT (and especially if they work in their makeup/clothing/hairstyle/etc) get significant changes, but passing is an entirely different issue.

[Angélique LaCava]

I think not. At least not perfectly/flawlessly/with flying colors.

IMHO most MTF after 2 years on HRT (and especially if they work in their makeup/clothing/hairstyle/etc) get significant changes, but passing is an entirely different issue.

in your opinion how long does a person have to be on hormones in order to not ever feel the need to question themselves? I mean to me it seems like after so long on hormones that someone should be able to pass eventually.

[Laurie]

in your opinion how long does a person have to be on hormones in order to not ever feel the need to question themselves? I mean to me it seems like after so long on hormones that someone should be able to pass eventually.

  I don't think it has anything to do with time. Some people will never stop questioning themselves. They will continue to question each and every aspect of their looks and every possible cause no matter how good they appear or how many people tell them they look lovely. It is due to their innate insecurities and nothing is going to overcome them nor convince them otherwise.

  Hugs,
   Laurie

[RavenMoon]

in your opinion how long does a person have to be on hormones in order to not ever feel the need to question themselves? I mean to me it seems like after so long on hormones that someone should be able to pass eventually.

Why would they? You just ignored what I wrote. Lol
Lots of trans women still <don't pass>. It's unfortunate we can't all look great right away, but hormones alone rarely makes people passable.
Humans are sexually dimorphic; men and women look different. Sometimes it's subtle, but we pick up on facial geometry very quickly.
And everyone is different. All the passable trans women I know have had lots of surgery.


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Moderator edit: The original phrase was seen as offensive so it was edited to ease the sting.

[Wednesday]

I mean to me it seems like after so long on hormones that someone should be able to pass eventually.

I have the same gut feeling but I'm not completely sure. I think you can see changes even almost a decade after starting HRT (at least I'm almost a decade in, and last years saw minor changes in some things like fat distribution). However I think it really depends on the individuals starting point before HRT.

I would say like 5-7 years into HRT should be a good mark for most people. But anyways you know everybody is different.

[Wednesday]

IMHO I think there's a little room for nuances in some things you wrote @RavenMoon

hormones alone rarely makes people passable.

Considering HRT + styling work (makeup/clothing/etc), it wouldn't be that rare for those who were reasonably androgynous before. I know they are not the most, but I think they are a significant portion of MTF the population. However if we are talking about somebody who is very masculine (or masculine enough, maybe average masculine), I think it's true HRT alone won't work.

All the passable trans women I know have had lots of surgery.

Plastic surgery is a great asset, but I know a few girls (very few really) who were passable before having plastic surgery.

[RavenMoon]

As I said, it depends on the person. Some guys look passable with just a wig and makeup. And some trans women don't after years on hormones. I'm just being pragmatic.

I know for myself, even though I'm already very androgynous, and at times have confused people regarding my sex, it's always in a dark club and I have lots of makeup on. But how about at the supermarket? Ain't happening.

Maybe I have in my mind how I expect myself to look. But I see some people and think "oh no, I'd never want to look like that!" I guess I'm honest to a fault, even with myself. Lol.


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[jfong]

Plastic surgery is a great asset, but I know a few girls (very few really) who were passable before having plastic surgery.

Yep, I know some of them myself. Also I didn't have any plastic surgery aside from GRS.

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[Wednesday]

As I said, it depends on the person. Some guys look passable with just a wig and makeup. And some trans women don't after years on hormones. I'm just being [...] I guess I'm honest to a fault, even with myself. Lol.

Lol I know. I was just being a little picky haha.

Anyway agreed with you overall!

[DawnOday]

I'm not questioning my passing, just want to know if the average Mtf transgender passes usually after 2 years on hrt.

Angelique
You are what 23 years old? Yes you will have an easier time passing than I will at 65 as I would require massive reconstruction.  You on the other hand are blessed with attractive traits.

[Jenna Marie]

I couldn't pass as a guy after six months on HRT... and I did try. But, as others have said, there's no solid scientific data on this (particularly since "passing" is so subjective anyway).

[jentay1367]

There are so many variables involved and the question is so visceral, that there's no way to answer it plausibly. Passes in who's eyes? Which person? the 20 y.o.? or the 60 y.o.? .............it goes on ad infinitum

[Brooke]

It's so variable, not just on the effect of hrt but starting points.

Everything from Adam's apple to male pattern baldness and if the facial hair has been completely removed. Then you have the voice and body language that can tip the scale to male or female.

Personal anecdote. I never developed an Adam's apple, nor did my voice ever deepen. I also developed androgynous features. In my case the scale was tipped towards female from the beginning. I've had male fail most of my adult life.

I think that even with years of hormones if a person is unable to tip the scale with everything else there is no guarantee- even if hrt did a fantastic job.

I'm  in the (very) small population who passed before anything was started. I had some testing done at the hospital earlier today, and one of the standard questions was "have you taken any hormonal medications this morning?" I explained to the tech I had taken my AA regiment, for cross sex hormone treatment. She then went on and asked a few minutes later "so you mentioned your in the process of a sex change, in what direction?" I responded "male to female", and she replied with a look of shock "wow! I would never had known or guessed."

Point being I'm less than a year into hrt, but pass as cis even to the medical community.

Passing is dependent on so much more than the efficacy on hormones. With as many variables as there are I think that the question in regards to the trans population as a whole/average is impossible to answer accurately even if there was a gold standard randomized controlled trial with a large sample group of just hormones vs hormones with other medical interventions.


~Brooke~

[Miss Clara]

Brooke is right.  It depends on your starting point.

HRT doesn't reverse most male secondary sex characteristics following male puberty.  It won't reverse:

1) male facial hair
2) male Adam's apple
3) male voice
4) male shoulder/chest width
5) male narrow hips
6) male brow bossing
7) male upper lip and jaw line
male pattern baldness
9) male hand/foot size
10) male genitals

So unless you start HRT before puberty strikes, or you have somehow avoided developing these masculine characteristics, HRT will not be enough to consistently pass as female.  Even surgical intervention may not be enough to tip the balance.

It does become easier to pass as an older woman without surgery, though.  Older women lose many of the feminine characteristics that younger women possess so that often HRT alone will do the trick along with appropriate presentation.

[Wednesday]

Passing is dependent on so much more than the efficacy on hormones. With as many variables as there are I think that the question in regards to the trans population as a whole/average is impossible to answer accurately even if there was a gold standard randomized controlled trial with a large sample group of just hormones vs hormones with other medical interventions.

I agree with you. Clinical accuracy on this subject is completely out of the question. Anyway I think the OP asked having this in mind, and just looking for kind of a "vague standard" and for people's impressions based in what they had seen over time.

It does become easier to pass as an older woman without surgery, though.  Older women lose many of the feminine characteristics that younger women possess so that often HRT alone will do the trick along with appropriate presentation.

Interesting observation. I think the same.

[jentay1367]

I agree with the last two posters regarding age and passing. To the extreme, if you take a couple of 80 year old people and dress them the same and they're the same weight, it may be difficult to gender them. Babies, obviously have the same characteristics. It's that in between that the differences are most striking. Literally, When the hormones are actially at play.

[Michelle_P]

I would just note that with extended duration testosterone exposure, some changes for some of us have accumulated to the point that HRT has a minimal effect on our faces.

A year of HRT after a half century of testosterone delivery has had some impact on my body, and essentially none on my face.

All the changes you may see in my face are the result of improving skills in cosmetics slight of hand, the illusion that my bones and cartilage have a different shape from what they actually have.

With some older people the drop in hormone levels with age combined with stretching of skin and connective tissue and weight gain produces a sort of senior androgyny, reducing the older persons visible gender differences.

I did not gain weight. At 135 lbs my skull's shape, the forehead, orbital ridges, dorsal cartilage of the nose, and thickened jaw and torii are all too obvious.

Some additional work is needed to be passable without a half hour makeup session before running out the door:

*Type 3 forehead reconstruction
*Orbital reduction
*Elevate the eyebrows
* Upper blepharoplasty on the right eye
* Dorsal reduction and slight rotation of the nose
* "Lip lift"
* Jaw reduction
* "tracheal shave"
* lower face and neck "facelift" with liposuction to adjust fat placement

(List courtesy of an evaluation yesterday by Dr Klineberger, an excellent maxillofacial reconstruction specialist, i.e. a darn good plastic surgeon.)

Then I can consider hair transplants and other cosmetic niceties.

[emoji20]



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